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Is watercooling still better than air cooling?
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PCTC2
Diamond Member
Once again, as Gillbot stated, chips vary. My Q6600 runs hot, even for a B3. You cannot compare separate chips. And you must also consider ambients. Ambient temperature is a huge factor, and the second link doesn't post them. I ran my E6400 @ 3.7GHz in 22C ambients at 55C full load (on air). I could not touch that once ambients hit 30C. Sure, they list it in the first link, but I'd like to see a direct comparison of that EXACT chip in the same ambients in the same case using Gillbot's water.
And no, it did not go obsolete. Again, I would like to see an aircooler with an i7 beat water. I would like to see an aircooler dissipate a 200W heat source as efficiently as watercooling. I would like to see how this makes water obsolete. You are still arguing without any consideration for other arguments.
I know that I certainly wouldn't want water mixing with a 1000w PSU.
Also, here is a quote from an online article on watercooling:
I don't see why you would have a problem with my pointing out the risks of watercooling. I could pretend that they do not exist, but it's exactly the reason why my parents said I was kicked out of the house if I did it to my computer when I was still living at home.
Perhaps you can use some strange nonconductive fluids, but most people have traditionally used water with some sort of stabilizer additive, plus perhaps some color AFAIK.
Water + Electricity = Short Circuit
SB, you're question "Is watercooling still better than air cooling?" has been answered numerous times, yes, it is and people have provided you with solid data, and subsequently you're now arguing what is the better value and which is easier to setup and maintain . . . which is really just depending on what YOU want.
Some people have the budget (cough cough aigo) and the know how to trump air cooling hands down, but really this thread has derailed from its original question.
To some watercooling is worth it, to others its not . . . and its obvious to see where you stand, but the fact remains that water cooling IS better than air cooling when it comes to performance.
Some people have the budget (cough cough aigo) and the know how to trump air cooling hands down, but really this thread has derailed from its original question.
To some watercooling is worth it, to others its not . . . and its obvious to see where you stand, but the fact remains that water cooling IS better than air cooling when it comes to performance.
They have not refuted my initial post to my satisfaction.
If watercooling were better than air cooling, you would have Dell, Toshiba, and the rest of them installing it in their computers, plus intel and AMD would bundle waterblocks with their processors. They don't do that. They use air cooling for many reasons. You don't see servers running watercooling either.
PCTC2
Diamond Member
Water is not conductive. Tap water is. But buying distilled water from CVS for a buck gives you cheap, non-conductive liquid to which you can add some non-conductive additives, and guess what? You have a non-conductive coolant.
And of course it poses some risk to the system. SOME. But does that say it is dangerous to a house? No. It says computer parts. If you don't do regular maintenance and if you do have a leak, then you're going to have a problem. But the main thing is just removing dust from a system, which is the same as for aircooling.
And thats why this is a hobby / enthusiast thing, you don't see the aforementioned compaines overclocking their servers either . . .Hence why the biggest variable in this is the end user.
Just because you can't justify some things doesn't mean someone else can't. If you're happy with what you have then so be it, but to others they want / need better cooling than what air can provide.
Gillbot
Lifer
As I said, you can't compare MY results to someone elses!
If I cared to dig, I could show you someone's chip with a plain heatsink and NO fan that loads less than any of your "touted" $35 air coolers, it means absolutely nothing. EVERY CHIP AND SETUP IS DIFFERENT.
All I am trying to say is, if you take the EXACT SAME SETUP and switch from a simple air cooled heatsink to a watercooled system, you will lower temps. PERIOD. Water is a better heat transfer medium than air. Physics determines this, not you or anyone else.
LOL, this thread is funny. sounds like someone just wants to argue. Also want to just add that water cooling is not cost effective for the avg consumer companies like above listed to include with a brand new $400 computer. Also the avg consumer would probably mess something up without knowledge of water cooling and void warranty. Also the avg consumer barely has any knowledge about how computers are built or how to change anything out on them; that is why they buy from the above listed manufacturers with the basics.
Also why many other have mentioned that water cooling is....cant think of the word. basically more for the enthusiests (however you spell that).
You are attempting to deny a fact. Non conductive liquids can be spilled on a motherboard. I forgot an O-ring in my CPU block one time, and ended up with distilled going down over the NB and pooling on top of the GPU. Nothing broke, and the system was dried out and running again that night.
How do you possibly justify the idea that watercooling represents a fire hazard anymore than another computer?
yh125d
Diamond Member
Being of a self admittedly IMMOVABLE opinion, while tossing out blatant misinformation?
That's straying awfully close to trolling
You seemingly made this thread to learn about watercooling and why people use it, but since you continue to be pigheaded and throwing out such FALSE information I don't see why you made it in the first place. It's obvious you didn't make the thread to maybe change your opinion on the subject
Dont want water on your PSU? Check this out. It doesn't come stock with water as a coolant, but you could easily use water for it. It's not the only one either.
You seem to be under the assumption that all liquids are conductive.
I'm starting to think the mods should lock this thead out.
Someone has advised an excellent format for a debate on watercooling and I will do so if the mods decide to lock this up.
I apologize if I came across as unwavering with the "refuse to believe" comments. I meant that I found it "hard to believe".
This thread was intended to be an informative debate and has turned into a flame war. TBH much of it seems like people with bruised egos due to the fact that I showed that air cooling can be as effective as watercooling without the inherent risks or costs. So be it.
Someone has advised an excellent format for a debate on watercooling and I will do so if the mods decide to lock this up.
I apologize if I came across as unwavering with the "refuse to believe" comments. I meant that I found it "hard to believe".
This thread was intended to be an informative debate and has turned into a flame war. TBH much of it seems like people with bruised egos due to the fact that I showed that air cooling can be as effective as watercooling without the inherent risks or costs. So be it.
WoodButcher
Platinum Member
How can you reach this conclusion and make a statement of fact without ever running a "good" loop yourself?
Nemesis 1
Lifer
Hay Sick Beast. Its cool . Water is not for everybody. This is no differant than ATI vs. NV or AMD vs. Intel. I love discussing both sides of issues. The only thing we all need to keep in mind. Were all differant. We all view things differantly. I thought you were a bit aggressive but no harm no faul. If anything you have a better Case against water cooling than we do for. If people want to deny that whats it to you. The cost alone wins your argument.
I've seen enough people post their results to formulate an opinion. Their results don't vary by all that much. The Xigmateks keep a C2Q anywhere from 40C to 55C under load, depending on the overclock. Watercooling seems to keep them around the same range, perhaps with the exception being a highly clocked core i7.
Gillbot
Lifer
So because it has been posted on the internet, it's 100% true?
As many have told you over and over, you can't pull random examples from other people and use them as fact. You want another one to blow your mind? My old ACF7 pro held my Q6600 under 15C at FULL LOAD! yeah, it was winter and the PC was outside but hey, that beats my current IN THE HOUSE water cooled system doesn't it! Sure the comparison is completely useless and moronic but hey, if that's the path you want to choose, so troll .... I mean be it.
dookulooku
Member
While a high-end watercooling setup offers better performance than a high-end air cooling setup, the difference is usually at most a few degrees C.
This is because of the bottlenecks.
1) Air cooling is limited by the transfer of heat from the heatsink fins to the air.
2) Water cooling is limited by the transfer of heat from the waterblock to water, and from water to the radiator fins. Water has good thermal capacitance but poor conductivity.
Watercooling can dissipate much more heat than air-cooling, but within the power budget designs of air cooling, it does not cool much better than air.
The surface area of the radiator means there's enough air to easily remove the heat from the radiator fins. Combined with water's good thermal conductivity, it means water-cooling can dissipate 500+ W. But it can't dissipate 500W from a single source because of water's low conductivity.
With air cooling, the thermal conductivity of the heatsink is extremely high. As long as the temperature delta between the heatsink and IHS are high, then most of the heat from the IHS goes to the heatsink. However, if there isn't enough airflow over the heatsink, the temperature delta goes down and it's effectiveness is reduced.
This is because of the bottlenecks.
1) Air cooling is limited by the transfer of heat from the heatsink fins to the air.
2) Water cooling is limited by the transfer of heat from the waterblock to water, and from water to the radiator fins. Water has good thermal capacitance but poor conductivity.
Watercooling can dissipate much more heat than air-cooling, but within the power budget designs of air cooling, it does not cool much better than air.
The surface area of the radiator means there's enough air to easily remove the heat from the radiator fins. Combined with water's good thermal conductivity, it means water-cooling can dissipate 500+ W. But it can't dissipate 500W from a single source because of water's low conductivity.
With air cooling, the thermal conductivity of the heatsink is extremely high. As long as the temperature delta between the heatsink and IHS are high, then most of the heat from the IHS goes to the heatsink. However, if there isn't enough airflow over the heatsink, the temperature delta goes down and it's effectiveness is reduced.
dude ive never seen so many wrong facts in a post before.
Thermal conductivity of water is more then 10x that of air. What are you saying?
Within a few C? Maybe @ idle, on LOAD it can be a LOT more then that.
"But it can't dissipate 500W from a single source because of water's low conductivity."
Air 0.025
Water (liquid) 0.6
Hello YOU GUYS ARE BUTCHING the rules of THERMODYNAMICS!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conductivity
Seriously did CERN pass out mini LHC's to everyone so they can bend the rules of physics?
Seriously study your THERMO.
obviously if your posting that air is better then water, you STILL HAVENT LEARNED THERMO.
yes some things are still useful when you graduate from college.
u wanna see a package that can disappate 1100W without a problem?
http://i125.photobucket.com/al...aigomorla/IMG_0119.jpg
Now tell me what air sink is in that class.
Seriously our world is dictated by the rules of thermodynamics.
A guy on XS says it the best:
The Laws of Thermodynamics say:
Zeroth Law: "You must play the game."
First Law: "You can't win."
Second Law: "You can't break even."
Third Law: "You can't quit the game."
Its really sad cuz this thread hasnt turned into an information thread, but more like the people WHO CANT AFFORD WATER, lets GANG UP and TROLL it.
Water is better, but its HECK OF LOT MORE EXPENSIVE. thats the only hitch.
IF you can get past that hitch, WATER IS BETTER THEN AIR.
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