Is water cooling dead?

[Dadofamunky]

As an off-and-on OCer, I've never been attracted to watercooling. I have a healthy sensitivity to the care and feeding of electronic equipment, and would sooner die than let any kind of fluid near my latest builds. Combine this with the excellent state of HSF technology and the marginal utility of watercooling seems limited at best, at least to me. Of course, others may disagree, including moderators.

Now, given the source for this information, it does appear that watercooling kits are starting to disappear from the market, if the tiny presence of such kits at one of Taiwan's biggest electronics emporiums is any indication.

Based on our sketchy source, it appears that small refrigeration units will be hitting the market quite soon as a putative advance past the water-cooling concept. The two photos in the article are quite interesting. The top one gives an indication of why I personally would never consider watercooling. The complexity and bulk of such a system, let alone the issue of fluids in general, immediately kill my interest in such a solution. At the end of the day, I want to spend more time using my computer than maintaining it.

Also, based upon the several comparison reviews on AT about watercooling vs. high-end air that I've read, there is very little functional difference between the two. Given that a decent watercooling system costs 3x-6x more than high-end air, I think you can see where I'm going with this. The marginal utility that a degree or two gets you is not acceptable, given the cost and time premiums.

The second photo shows a demo system with a new-fangled refrigeration unit (at least I think that's what it is). Assuming the device is for real, the sheer compactness of such a solution is quite attractive. My biggest concern is the possibility of condensation, particularly in an enclosed case.

Man, what people won't do to squeeze out an extra couple hundred megahertz! It's all good, though.

So, what are your thoughts? I'll be away for a few hours but will try to get back soon.

 

[aigomorla]

Ummm lets see,

If you had to rank me on the forum, i think i would be at the top for ambient cooling.

Water is a hobby, not a requirement.

Water isnt as effective on the 45nm cpu's as it is on the 65nm cpu. Sorry voltage kills 45nm so freaken fast.

Water allows you to set and forget all season long.

Water performance can not be matched by air. Im sorry, ive been trying to fix that guy's statement. But a medium tier will kill AIR.

Ask Gillbot on how his setup did.


You water because its fun, and because you think its something you look forward to.

You dont water because someone tells you its the only option, or because you think it looks cool.

Sorry looking cool, and the amount of time/dediccation for water is better placed in Cold Cathods lamps with UV paint.



One last thing. The new water stuff is absolutely great, and if you do get your feet wet, i find it very rare for someone now a days to go back to air.

Unless they totally botched the first project. Water spoils you badly.

Example
http://i125.photobucket.com/al...3/aigomorla/Wprime.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/al...73/aigomorla/CM690.jpg

Heres my personal best(non sub ambient), was a cold night tho. WCG loaded temps.
http://i125.photobucket.com/al.../aigomorla/Temps-2.jpg




Just to note, when i first made that sticky, watercooling was still kinda rare. But since that sticky has been up.

Lately ive been counting around 2-3 migrations per month. If anything, water isnt dying, its getting more popular.

 

[Tim]

I likes my water. Probably a more energy efficient method of cooling than refridgerated units anyway.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: theplaidfad
I likes my water. Probably a more energy efficient method of cooling than refridgerated units anyway.

lol you think you'll ever go back to air on your main setup?

 

[Dadofamunky]

Originally posted by: theplaidfad
I likes my water. Probably a more energy efficient method of cooling than refridgerated units anyway.

I know, that's a consideration too!

Originally posted by: aigomorla
Ummm lets see,

If you had to rank me on the forum, i think i would be at the top for ambient cooling.

No doubt about that! Nice that I could lure you out of your lair.

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Water isnt as effective on the 45nm cpu's as it is on the 65nm cpu. Sorry voltage kills 45nm so freaken fast.

Yeah, so I've heard. Ironic, since the process at least at stock appears to be so much cooler. So, you're saying that overvolting the 45nms is really a bad idea?

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: Dadofamunky

Yeah, so I've heard. Ironic, since the process at least at stock appears to be so much cooler. So, you're saying that overvolting the 45nms is really a bad idea?

define over volting.

To some its a slight bump in voltage. To others its pushing it hard.

To me, im honestly scared of pushing my QX past 1.45V for 24/7 even tho my load temps are on par with some people's idle temps on air.

And ive lost a wolfdale from feeding it too much voltage. Voltage on the 45nm is like crack. You give anyone enough crack, they will fly and run up the walls. However we all know what happens to addicts in the end.




But dont get me wrong, water is still great on the 45nm chips. Expecially now with accelerators. Remember smaller die + same voltage = hotter smaller footprint. Air sinks arent great at concentrating its cooling.

Water blocks with Jets, can center the area for turbulance, and increase cooling on that small footprint far better then air.

This is why research is very important before you go off to a full blown migration. The less you know, the more chances you have of botching something up.

 

[40sTheme]

This stuff is also referring to water cooling KITS, and it's pretty much agreed everywhere that crappy kits (a la Zalman, Thermaltake) SUCK. Now, if you buy all the components (rad, res, pump, etc) yourself from a respectable place like Petra's or FrozenCPU, it's going to offer a lot more benefit than a stupid kit. More people are probably figuring this out, and that's why kits are falling off of the market.

 

[Rike]

Originally posted by: aigomorla
Water is a hobby, not a requirement.

You water because its fun, and because you think its something you look forward to.

There it is. Fun, functional, and not worrying if I have enough cooling power. The only way I'd go back would be if I just didn't have time for the hobby side of it any more.

 

[Dadofamunky]

Originally posted by: aigomorla
[define over volting.

To some its a slight bump in voltage. To others its pushing it hard.

To me, im honestly scared of pushing my QX past 1.45V for 24/7 even tho my load temps are on par with some people's idle temps on air.

And ive lost a wolfdale from feeding it too much voltage. Voltage on the 45nm is like crack. You give anyone enough crack, they will fly and run up the walls. However we all know what happens to addicts in the end.



But dont get me wrong, water is still great on the 45nm chips. Expecially now with accelerators. Remember smaller die + same voltage = hotter smaller footprint. Air sinks arent great at concentrating its cooling.

Water blocks with Jets, can center the area for turbulance, and increase cooling on that small footprint far better then air.

This is why research is very important before you go off to a full blown migration. The less you know, the more chances you have of botching something up.

Anything approaching the maximum recommended tolerance from Intel. I racked up 1.625.V on my 65nm chip and had success, but throttled it back down. IIRC, the 45nm max is much lower. 1.45V on a QX? Damn. I wouldn't ever go that far, knowing what I do now (tho I definitely don't have your depth of experience).

OK. Water cooling with JETS? Does that come with hot stones and a half-hour deep-tissue massage? :laugh:

But what you say makes sense, particularly for the 45nm cooling issues. Such a small die is bound to concentrate heat. It's great to know that if I take leave of my senses and decide to do another build, this time with water, there are people around who know their shizzle.

Is water practical in a MicroATX build? My Lian-Li case is fairly roomy compared to most of its type.

Originally posted by: 40sTheme
This stuff is also referring to water cooling KITS, and it's pretty much agreed everywhere that crappy kits (a la Zalman, Thermaltake) SUCK. Now, if you buy all the components (rad, res, pump, etc) yourself from a respectable place like Petra's or FrozenCPU, it's going to offer a lot more benefit than a stupid kit. More people are probably figuring this out, and that's why kits are falling off of the market.

Now THAT'S what I call nailing the issue. I'm sure that's why that's happening. Strictly a DIY thing, for the initates into the watercooling mysteries.

 

[aigomorla]

i can teach you how to build a koolance rad housing shell, theres only 2 parts you need to buy.

Its fairly sexy and very easy.

However you need to respect the fact that water isnt something that can magically gobble heat. You will need an appropreate sized rad. :T

oh this is also dependant on your config, and how cool your ambients are.

 

[RallyMaster]

Never really cared for water cooling since it's pretty much heatpipe cooling with a longer loop

 

[Syzygies]

I wonder how many people look at the survey, don't find an entry that fits them, conclude that the thread can't possibly be of interest to them either, and move on?

A survey that deliberately excludes part of its potential audience is nothing more than a stunt. The survey is explicitly and deliberately polarizing, excluding anyone with an open mind about water who hasn't moved yet. This is exactly the audience you want, but are chasing away.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: Syzygies
I wonder how many people look at the survey, don't find an entry that fits them, conclude that the thread can't possibly be of interest to them either, and move on?

A survey that deliberately excludes part of its potential audience is nothing more than a stunt. The survey is explicitly and deliberately polarizing, excluding anyone with an open mind about water who hasn't moved yet. This is exactly the audience you want, but are chasing away.

well he's asking if watercooling died.

Well the truth is it hasnt, in fact its getting bigger. However prepackaged kits are dying. Why? because there is people like me on many forums who educate and teach people how to build a proper setup. One that is custom and meets YOUR Custom needs.

The price difference between a cutom and a prepackaged? sometimes greater or = depends on the quality of the kit.

However i dont recomend any kit.

Why do i say its getting bigger? because so many companies are now out then before. Also the amount of RnD that goes into each block, and how each is designed now. There not simple slabs of copper with cross slits.

Radiators are no longer from cars, they used to be all heatercores from old cars. Now there are main stream rads for h2o computers.

Water is something that will always facinate the hobbiest. There is nothing prettier/sexier then a well looped up h2o computer.

However with great products deserve great maintance. There is no set and forget water setup. All systems need to be flushed from time to time.

Best way to say it is, you wouldnt let the oil in your car sit forever now would you?

 

[God Mode]

I hate wires, tubes or extra bs with pumps and radiators associated with WC. I have a bit of ocd on form and function.

 

[Tim]

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: theplaidfad
I likes my water. Probably a more energy efficient method of cooling than refridgerated units anyway.

lol you think you'll ever go back to air on your main setup?

Nope, don't see why I would! I had a lot of fun working on my noob first-timer setup, and after I was done I had such a good sence of accomplishment. Besides, I'm sure this waterblock of mine will se quite a few CPU's before it ever gets retired.

 

[Dadofamunky]

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: Syzygies
I wonder how many people look at the survey, don't find an entry that fits them, conclude that the thread can't possibly be of interest to them either, and move on?

A survey that deliberately excludes part of its potential audience is nothing more than a stunt. The survey is explicitly and deliberately polarizing, excluding anyone with an open mind about water who hasn't moved yet. This is exactly the audience you want, but are chasing away.

well he's asking if watercooling died.

Well the truth is it hasnt, in fact its getting bigger. However prepackaged kits are dying. Why? because there is people like me on many forums who educate and teach people how to build a proper setup. One that is custom and meets YOUR Custom needs.

The price difference between a cutom and a prepackaged? sometimes greater or = depends on the quality of the kit.

However i dont recomend any kit.

Why do i say its getting bigger? because so many companies are now out then before. Also the amount of RnD that goes into each block, and how each is designed now. There not simple slabs of copper with cross slits.

Radiators are no longer from cars, they used to be all heatercores from old cars. Now there are main stream rads for h2o computers.

Water is something that will always facinate the hobbiest. There is nothing prettier/sexier then a well looped up h2o computer.

However with great products deserve great maintance. There is no set and forget water setup. All systems need to be flushed from time to time.

Best way to say it is, you wouldnt let the oil in your car sit forever now would you?

Word on that. It looks like I was only half-right: water-cooling KITS are dying. Makes sense. There is no quick-gratification solution there; it takes some work and focus. I relate it to building and maintaining a decent-size fishtank, which to me this sorta resembles. But for this crowd that's not a big deal.

There's another advantage too; the noise factor diminishes tremendously!

 

[Tim]

Originally posted by: Dadofamunky

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: Syzygies
I wonder how many people look at the survey, don't find an entry that fits them, conclude that the thread can't possibly be of interest to them either, and move on?

A survey that deliberately excludes part of its potential audience is nothing more than a stunt. The survey is explicitly and deliberately polarizing, excluding anyone with an open mind about water who hasn't moved yet. This is exactly the audience you want, but are chasing away.

well he's asking if watercooling died.

Well the truth is it hasnt, in fact its getting bigger. However prepackaged kits are dying. Why? because there is people like me on many forums who educate and teach people how to build a proper setup. One that is custom and meets YOUR Custom needs.

The price difference between a cutom and a prepackaged? sometimes greater or = depends on the quality of the kit.

However i dont recomend any kit.

Why do i say its getting bigger? because so many companies are now out then before. Also the amount of RnD that goes into each block, and how each is designed now. There not simple slabs of copper with cross slits.

Radiators are no longer from cars, they used to be all heatercores from old cars. Now there are main stream rads for h2o computers.

Water is something that will always facinate the hobbiest. There is nothing prettier/sexier then a well looped up h2o computer.

However with great products deserve great maintance. There is no set and forget water setup. All systems need to be flushed from time to time.

Best way to say it is, you wouldnt let the oil in your car sit forever now would you?

Word on that. It looks like I was only half-right: water-cooling KITS are dying. Makes sense. There is no quick-gratification solution there; it takes some work and focus. I relate it to building and maintaining a decent-size fishtank, which to me this sorta resembles. But for this crowd that's not a big deal.

There's another advantage too; the noise factor diminishes tremendously!

I can back your thoughts there with some facts of my own trials with the "kits" out there. I did things on my own, without really searching the internet for other peoples thoughts. I acted on impulse, purchasing and using what I thought to be in my best interest. I wouldn't say the money was wasted because I learned thing along the way about watercooling.

I've used 4 water-cooling kits (embarassingly) in the last 3 years because I like the idea of it.

1. A thermaltake Bigwater 735 kit which worked about as effectivly the same as top end air cooling at the time, cooling only my CPU
2. About 6 months later, I augmented the TT 735 and added to the loop an Evercool WC-202 (which the unit died on the first attempted use, sprung back to life only to die again a month later) along with a TT graphics card waterblock.
3. I "upgraded" to a Thermaltake Bigwater 745 a year or so later because of the "faster LPH flow" of the pump thinking it would help me reach an easier noob overclock and lower temps.... (wrong)
4. ONCE MORE, I took the "upgrade" path to a Thermaltake bigwater 760i, ignoring what I started reading in forums about how superior a WC setup you put together yourself could perform. I thought "Hey, this only cost this much, and I can have it running in a couple of hours."

After building my own (even though noob) custom loop after all of this, I've realized that custom is the most effective. These companies that spend hours upon hours of reasearch time only to release one componant in a water-cooling loop are dedicated to the ideal of performance.

I won't elaborate any more on this since I've been drinking and the thoughts aren't coming easily right now, but I'm glad I fought the hard road here on watercooling experiance in such a short time. I've learned a lot, and I know that DIY is the way to go as long as you're willing to take the time and effort to ensure that you're doing what's in your best interest in attaining your goals...

Once again, if none of this makes sence, I apologize... I have been drinking, but I spent a lot of time making sure I was typing as true as possible!

 

[legoman666]

Originally posted by: God Mode
I hate wires, tubes or extra bs with pumps and radiators associated with WC. I have a bit of ocd on form and function.

http://i28.photobucket.com/alb...666/IMG_0417_small.jpg

About as clean as I could get.

 

[Tim]

Originally posted by: legoman666

Originally posted by: God Mode
I hate wires, tubes or extra bs with pumps and radiators associated with WC. I have a bit of ocd on form and function.

http://i28.photobucket.com/alb...666/IMG_0417_small.jpg

About as clean as I could get.

Beautiful indeed. I lack that talent.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: God Mode
I hate wires, tubes or extra bs with pumps and radiators associated with WC. I have a bit of ocd on form and function.

OCD?

http://i125.photobucket.com/al...aigomorla/IMG_0862.jpg

Personally i think it looks a lot cleaner then if i had sinks on. :T

I have OCD as well, i cant stand a messy case.


H20 setups only look like this when your bored and you dont know wtf your doing as to loop order:
http://i125.photobucket.com/al...aigomorla/IMG_0574.jpg

Yeah thats my attemp at a single loop dual pump dual radiator SLI system.
No i will never do it that way again.

 

[WoodButcher]

Alive and kickin!

 

[Gillbot]

I don't think water is anywhere near dead. I think it's coming out of it's shell more now than ever and judging by the prices places are getting for their water components, it is in pretty high demand.

I'll honestly probably never go back to air. I am working on a 2nd toy rig just for testing parts and the like and I will put it under water too since it works SOOOOOOO much better than air.

 

[Dadofamunky]

Originally posted by: aigomorla
[OCD?

http://i125.photobucket.com/al...aigomorla/IMG_0862.jpg

Personally i think it looks a lot cleaner then if i had sinks on. :T

I have OCD as well, i cant stand a messy case.


H20 setups only look like this when your bored and you dont know wtf your doing as to loop order:
http://i125.photobucket.com/al...aigomorla/IMG_0574.jpg

Yeah thats my attemp at a single loop dual pump dual radiator SLI system.
No i will never do it that way again.

LOL! That looks like Laocoon's serpent! Let's see... CPU, NB, two video card blocks... It looks like there's MOSFET cooler there too! That is just psychotic.

The first rig is excellent.

Originally posted by: legoman666

Originally posted by: God Mode
I hate wires, tubes or extra bs with pumps and radiators associated with WC. I have a bit of ocd on form and function.

http://i28.photobucket.com/alb...666/IMG_0417_small.jpg

About as clean as I could get.

That's about as good as it can be done. In fact, it's kinda inspiring. So is Aigo's. There ARE some compelling advantages:

1) With the right DIY setup, cooling is clearly superior;
2) The grotesque Scythe Ninja and Tuniq Tower HSFs can be recycled, or converted into "found art;"
3) The noise factor is pretty much eliminated (esp. if you also go for a VGA water block);
4) Access to components is far better than with the big metal monstrosities.
5) With 45nm quad-cores and future 8X chips, it looks like this is the best option for efficient cooling.

Pretty impressive. I think I'm converted. The next build (whenever that is) will have water! At least CPU and NB, assuming the NB still exists by then.

 

[Rodknock]

I'd just like to say, I'm a fairly new convert to water, only been running my setup for 2-3 months now, but I'll never go back to air cooling for my own personal gaming/OCing rig. There's just no comparison. After setting everything up, I've had no problems whatsoever, and after setting aside several days to OC properly, I've got my Q6600 idling at ~24*C @ 3.6ghz and full load in p95 at ~33-34*C as measured in Realtemp. If anyone can beat that on air without living inside a refridgerator, my hat is off to them.

 

[Tim]

Originally posted by: Rodknock
I'd just like to say, I'm a fairly new convert to water, only been running my setup for 2-3 months now, but I'll never go back to air cooling for my own personal gaming/OCing rig. There's just no comparison. After setting everything up, I've had no problems whatsoever, and after setting aside several days to OC properly, I've got my Q6600 idling at ~24*C @ 3.6ghz and full load in p95 at ~33-34*C as measured in Realtemp. If anyone can beat that on air without living inside a refridgerator, my hat is off to them.

If I recall right, realtemp isn't going to show the right temp for your q6600. The tj of that CPU is 105 and realtemp is set at 95 isn't it? If that's the case your temps are 10C higher than what realtemp is telling you.