Is/was the ozone hole an alarmist agenda also?

[halik]

I've been watching this whole "debate" on global warming from afar and I really don't understand how this became a political issue.

Coming from Economics background, the only conclusion I can draw is that in the last 20 years companies have learned how to use PR firms and special-interested orgs to manage public option more efficiently. I don't remember the CFCs debacle having anywhere near as much opposition, so there must've been a revolution in public image management. Energy companies and industrial have an obvious economic incentive to spread disinformation and I can't think of anyone that gets the upside for being "alarmist"

 

[Toastedlightly]

Those other situations were rather easy to bring from theory to life, whereas it seems ACC is a bit more difficult the understand and create predictive models from. ACC also brings about much, much more drastic effects on the global economy.

 

[halik]

Those other situations were rather easy to bring from theory to life, whereas it seems ACC is a bit more difficult the understand and create predictive models from. ACC also brings about much, much more drastic effects on the global economy.

Oh I can understand the economic argument (i.e. cost & opp cost of regulation > cost of warming); I'm strictly referring to man-made global warming being fake/hyped

 

[Craig234]

I've been watching this whole "debate" on global warming from afar and I really don't understand how this became a political issue.

Coming from Economics background, the only conclusion I can draw is that in the last 20 years companies have learned how to use PR firms and special-interested orgs to manage public option more efficiently. I don't remember the CFCs debacle having anywhere near as much opposition, so there must've been a revolution in public image management. Energy companies and industrial have an obvious economic incentive to spread disinformation and I can't think of anyone that gets the upside for being "alarmist"

You pretty much nailed it - remember, there were about 300 registered lobbyists when Reagan took office, 35,000 now.

I've previously linked things like investigate charts showing Exxon spending tens of millins to fund duzens of propaganda groups who will say global warming isn't proven, and the public has bought the propagabda.

With the ozone issue, Reagan and the Democratic congress had a bi-partisan response to both support the international cooperation to take steps on the issue, including government regulation in the US.

 

[Jaskalas]

and I can't think of anyone that gets the upside for being "alarmist"

Being "alarmist" by itself has no material gain. Advocating control of CO2 in ways that dictate every single aspect of human life has huge gains to Stalin wannabes.

Just check out the various alarms and solutions and you'll see the broad spectrum of control that is intended to be placed on people. Don't dive a combustion engine, don't use electricity, don't eat meat, etc. You know, when the solution to "climate change" is to control the emissions from COWS you know the other side needs to be stopped at all costs.

Controlling CFCs didn't require us going back to the stone age, to control our cows, or for us to stop exhaling the way CO2 does.

 

[Craig234]

Being "alarmist" by itself has no material gain. Advocating control of CO2 in ways that dictate every single aspect of human life has huge gains to Stalin wannabes.

Just check out the various alarms and solutions and you'll see the broad spectrum of control that is intended to be placed on people. Don't dive a combustion engine, don't use electricity, don't eat meat, etc. You know, when the solution to "climate change" is to control the emissions from COWS you know the other side needs to be stopped at all costs.

Controlling CFCs didn't require us going back to the stone age, to control our cows, or for us to stop exhaling the way CO2 does.

You should be fined for abusiong the word Stalinist so badly.

What's next, anti-smoking laws are Hitlerist? Speed limits are Moaist?

 

[halik]

Being "alarmist" by itself has no material gain. Advocating control of CO2 in ways that dictate every single aspect of human life has huge gains to Stalin wannabes.

Just check out the various alarms and solutions and you'll see the broad spectrum of control that is intended to be placed on people. Don't dive a combustion engine, don't use electricity, don't eat meat, etc. You know, when the solution to "climate change" is to control the emissions from COWS you know the other side needs to be stopped at all costs.

Controlling CFCs didn't require us going back to the stone age, to control our cows, or for us to stop exhaling the way CO2 does.

What gains? There's no economic incentives anywhere - "Stalin wannabes" don't fund grants for research that counters scientific consensus.

This is the argument that was created by the people that have the economic incentives to stop regulation - it's essentially FUD. "Be scurred because gov't will control everything, 1984 yade yada". It's a catch-all that can be applied to virtually anything that that government does.

E.G. credit card regulation : Government taking control private contracts, you can't even open a credit card anymore w/o them over your shoulder.

 

[Jaskalas]

E.G. credit card regulation : Government taking control private contracts, you can't even open a credit card anymore w/o them over your shoulder.

Please define what this is an argument in favor of. We have credit card regulation so we should also... do what exactly? I'd like to know what this is an excuse for.

 

[cubeless]

krauthammer was, as usual, erudite about this today by coincidence... it's all about the money...

http://townhall.com/columnists/CharlesKrauthammer/2009/12/11/the_new_socialism

 

[StageLeft]

I believe that lobbying is fvcking this nation in the ass.

 

[sandorski]

krauthammer was, as usual, erudite about this today by coincidence... it's all about the money...

http://townhall.com/columnists/CharlesKrauthammer/2009/12/11/the_new_socialism

talk about Fail.

 

[Ozoned]

I've been watching this whole "debate" on global warming from afar and I really don't understand how this became a political issue.

Coming from Economics background, the only conclusion I can draw is that in the last 20 years companies have learned how to use PR firms and special-interested orgs to manage public option more efficiently. I don't remember the CFCs debacle having anywhere near as much opposition, so there must've been a revolution in public image management. Energy companies and industrial have an obvious economic incentive to spread disinformation and I can't think of anyone that gets the upside for being "alarmist"

The CFC ban never had a "Government is the only answer, attach a tax is the only option" stigma attached to it. Global warming became a political issue, because somebody decided to make it one.

All roads don't always lead to the IPCC. The Ozone hole could be responsible for recent cooling trends in the Antarctic.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/h...ayer-could-heat-antarctica-20091202-k6e6.html

Nice data set shows ozone healing underway. Notice the lack of data showing present total global man-made production and use of CFC's. (My thought are that it has likely increased in the last 2 decades)

http://cfc.geologist-1011.net/

If we would have used a cap and trade scheme to phase out CFC's The industrialized nations would still be producing and using them, while sending money to developing countries for their allotments,,,,while developing countries continued to produce and use them, with no good documentation, just as they do now.

It really doesn't matter if you believe, or not believe. Regulating Man-made contibutions to climate change, politically,,,,and effectively,... on a global scale is not possible.

 

[sandorski]

The CFC ban never had a "Government is the only answer, attach a tax is the only option" stigma attached to it. Global warming became a political issue, because somebody decided to make it one.

All roads don't always lead to the IPCC. The Ozone hole could be responsible for recent cooling trends in the Antarctic.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/h...ayer-could-heat-antarctica-20091202-k6e6.html

Nice data set shows ozone healing underway. Notice the lack of data showing present total global man-made production and use of CFC's. (My thought are that it has likely increased in the last 2 decades)

http://cfc.geologist-1011.net/

If we would have used a cap and trade scheme to phase out CFC's The industrialized nations would still be producing and using them, while sending money to developing countries for their allotments,,,,while developing countries continued to produce and use them, with no good documentation, just as they do now.

It really doesn't matter if you believe, or not believe. Regulating Man-made contibutions to climate change, politically,,,,and effectively,... on a global scale is not possible.

Fail.

 

[Ozoned]

Fail.

I felt the bump.

 

[brblx]

Global warming became a political issue, because somebody decided to make it one.

you.

us reasonable folk know it as scientific fact. it's become a political issues because, much like evolution, some idiots have decided to refute it and declare that science and facts infringe on their rights.

 

[Craig234]

I believe that lobbying is fvcking this nation in the ass.

A lack of democracy - caused by a long list of things, from the excessive role of lobbying that represents the system allowing concentrated money to use its big pile of money to own our politicians, to complacent citizens, to big corporate ownership of almost all our media, along with a number of other things I can list - are causing problems.

Tonight,l there's a show on the History Channel 'about 'people's history', about Howard Zinn's writing, with quotations from people involed in real democracy in our history.

I think you and others could benefit from seeing its messages, such as that democracy is always a 'bottom up' activity, not a 'top down' activity. It's inspiring to see its stories of democracy.

What are nation is supposed to really be about.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

you.

us reasonable folk know it as scientific fact. it's become a political issues because, much like evolution, some idiots and decided to refute it and declare that science and facts infringe on their rights.

Ah yes, a "true believer" trying to hide behind "scientific fact" when they should know(if they truly believed in science) that it isn't "fact" but rather an ongoing working theory. Unfortunately for them, their working theory has hit a few potholes as of late and they are leaking oil fast...

 

[CADsortaGUY]

A lack of democracy - caused by a long list of things, from the excessive role of lobbying that represents the system allowing concentrated money to use its big pile of money to own our politicians, to complacent citizens, to big corporate ownership of almost all our media, along with a number of other things I can list - are causing problems.

Tonight,l there's a show on the History Channel 'about 'people's history', about Howard Zinn's writing, with quotations from people involed in real democracy in our history.

I think you and others could benefit from seeing its messages, such as that democracy is always a 'bottom up' activity, not a 'top down' activity. It's inspiring to see its stories of democracy.

What are nation is supposed to really be about.

Yet it seems your types are always pushing for more "top down" activity via Federal Gov't force.

 

[sandorski]

I felt the bump.

This is gonna hurt
Pwnage simplified

You were saying?

 

[sandorski]

Ah yes, a "true believer" trying to hide behind "scientific fact" when they should know(if they truly believed in science) that it isn't "fact" but rather an ongoing working theory. Unfortunately for them, their working theory has hit a few potholes as of late and they are leaking oil fast...

 

[Ozoned]

you.

us reasonable folk know it as scientific fact. it's become a political issues because, much like evolution, some idiots and decided to refute it and declare that science and facts infringe on their rights.

I am not willing to accept a reduction in my lifestyle for a "fix" that has no possibility of fixing anything.

 

[BrownTown]

Its pretty easy to understand why it is a political issue. Most people don't really see a difference in their lives over CFCs, so its no big deal to ban them. Banning CO2 on the other hand will greatly affect everyone in this country. The amount of money required to greatly reduce CO2 would mean a significant reduction in the quality of life in this country due to higher energy prices, and our inability to complete overseas.

One thing I do think I should point out is that the giant energy companies aren't going to be as negatively affected as many people think. These tiny solar, wind and other "green" energy startups are to small to actually build or finance full scale (100+ MW) energy complexes. The same giant companies that make money off of coal and oil are the ones making money off of wind and solar. And going forward they will eventually just buy up the most successful green energy companies. the names are going to be the same, no matter what the energy product is.

For example, the company I work for is currently building the largest coal plant under construction in this country and the only nuclear plant under cosntruction in this country. However we are also building the largest solar plant and IGCC plants in this country. I guarantee you that they really don't give a crap who wins this global warming debate because they can build ANY type of plant. Same with the il companies, they have all the highly trained engineers and the strong management structure. They are better equipped than anyone to build a next generation of energy infrastructure.

 

[Craig234]

Yet it seems your types are always pushing for more "top down" activity via Federal Gov't force.

You are too simplistic. Government force isn't inherently tyranny or democracy it can be either.

When the government outlawed the workers from having any unions, it was tyranny, the government serving the interests of the few wealthy against the many workers.

When the government told factory owners it could not shoot workers who formed unions, it was democratic, protecting the rights of the many workers against the few factory owners.

And of course it's not always simple between those two. When it passes 'overtime laws', when it passes a minimum wage, it pases policies aimed at serving a larger public good, with a tradeoff, hurting some.

You are so simplistic that you simplky use the tyranny rhetoric - the 'government force' language - for any policy you disagree with, as if you said anything useful about the policy.

I'm not an unrestrained fan of democracy - the tyranny of the majority is a real problem, whether it's a minority of blacks in the US or a third worl nation with no vote who is getting screwed by selfish votes.

But I'm a big fan of it where it works, when it ends man's normal society of a tyranny by giving the power to the public to help a lot of people, to restrain tyranny.

And yes, restraining the powerful and tyranny does involve the use of government force. That's fine.

When the government tells a big corporation they can't force you off your land, and uses force against them if needed to protect you, that's democracy.

When the government invaded Puerto Rico and sold almost all the good land to US corproations who kicked Puerto Ricans off of it, that was tyranny.

And when the majority voted to allow covenants for whitel-only neighborhoods, that was tyranny of the majority.

You need to stop being so simplistic and posting childish posts like the one above that try to say alol governmnet actions are tyranny, showing you don't know much about democracy.

 

[Ozoned]

This is gonna hurt
Pwnage simplified

You were saying?

I always consider public information when I form my opinions.

R-12 production was banned in 1996.

Go to E-bay and search R-12.

How much do you want? A truckload? A 100 car train Load?

 

[sandorski]

I've always consider public information when I form my opinions.

R-12 production was banned in 1996.

Go to E-bay and search R-12.

How much do you want? A truckload? A 100 car train Load?

I don't want any, what's your point?