Is tripoli going to be a bloodbath?

[Doppel]

Just because they're different doesn't mean they're wrong.

Yeah, sometimes it just does mean they're wrong. Unless there is something right with a culture that would see an uprising of people and then the illegitimate government run amok with its military shooting them indiscriminately.

Even an oppressive dictatorship completely against the will of the people cannot exist without their acceptance of it on some level and that is part of their culture, to even allow it to happen.

 

[Doppel]

There's been some fighting and push back from loyal forces. One has to wonder how stupid or blindly idiotic these people are who are still risking their lives for what is unequivocally and inevitably a lost cause at this point. I guess maybe they really love Gadhafi, those clowns who are still defending him.

 

[PrayForDeath]

I know a few Syrians and you guys are some of the most stubborn, hard headed people I ever met.

"I met a few stubborn Syrians, therefore, all Syrians are hard headed" I like your reasoning there... Overgeneralize much?

Even an oppressive dictatorship completely against the will of the people cannot exist without their acceptance of it on some level and that is part of their culture, to even allow it to happen.

So when a guy points a gun to your head and rapes you, does that mean he was only able to do it because of your acceptance on some level? Such bullshit logic...

It is true that when a regime maintains power for over 40 years, the population will eventually adapt, because that’s what humans do. It will affect their culture, and new generations will be born under this regime without having seen “anything else.” Which only makes it harder to revolt and overthrow the government.

But that doesn't mean you can blame the population for something they have no control over (a coup that happened 40 years ago.) And the fact that they're demonstrating and challenging the regime now tells you that they do not, in fact, approve or harbor any acceptance for it.

 

[PrayForDeath]

There's been some fighting and push back from loyal forces. One has to wonder how stupid or blindly idiotic these people are who are still risking their lives for what is unequivocally and inevitably a lost cause at this point. I guess maybe they really love Gadhafi, those clowns who are still defending him.

Indeed, I've been wondering the same thing. Makes no sense to keep fighting unless they're close relatives and genuinely believe in him or something.

 

[Doppel]

Such bullshit logic...

OK if it's bullsh*t why did you 100% agree with me when you posted:

It is true that when a regime maintains power for over 40 years, the population will eventually adapt, because that’s what humans do. It will affect their culture, and new generations will be born under this regime without having seen “anything else.” Which only makes it harder to revolt and overthrow the government.

Anyway...

But that doesn't mean you can blame the population for something they have no control over (a coup that happened 40 years ago.) And the fact that they're demonstrating and challenging the regime now tells you that they do not, in fact, approve or harbor any acceptance for it.

Some obviously don't accept it. Some obviously do since a lot of people are not protesting, even if it has nothing to do with their own safety, the dictatorship just doesn't really bother them that much. It's part of their culture.

If the president of the US commanded his military to do what Assad has been doing they would revolt in very short order. Cultural difference. In the civilized West it is simply not accepted to gun down with live ammo peaceful protesters day after day after day and shell where they live. Nor would it be in any other first world country like Japan. This kind of savage behavior is status quo in much of the world, the Middle East seems to cherish it almost.

 

[PrayForDeath]

I did not agree with you when you blamed the population for "accepting" the dictatorship and oppression. I stated why it would be hard for them to reject it openly. And they were only able to do so recently because of the "spark" that started in Tunisia and Egypt, as well as the modern communication technologies that enabled them to rally across the country.

 

[Genx87]

That's obviously not true, given the situation. If it were, the rebels would have been mopped up by gaddafi's troops months ago, and they certainly wouldn't be winning, no matter what kind of air support they get.

Were you blind or just in denial? They were mopping them up until NATO decided to prolong the war by making it nearly impossible for the regimes troops to move.

I will be interested in seeing how NATO and the supporters of this action react when these people start executing regime loyalyts and civilians.

 

[PrayForDeath]

In the civilized West it is simply not accepted to gun down with live ammo peaceful protesters day after day after day and shell where they live. Nor would it be in any other first world country like Japan. This kind of savage behavior is status quo in much of the world, the Middle East seems to cherish it almost.

Don't, for one second, think that people in Syria find it acceptable to gun down peaceful protesters with live ammo. Let me sum up what people around me in Damascus are thinking:

First there's the group that's completely against the government. They are appalled by the government's violent response toward protesters, and are calling for the president to step down. I'm not gonna pull numbers out of my ass and give you a percentage of this group, but I can tell you that nearly all of my friends and coworkers fall in this group.

Then there's the group that's completely loyal to the regime. It's basically comprised of all the beneficiaries from the regime as well as people who are abusing the corruption and running businesses at the expense of others. This group will defend the government vehemently because their existence depends on it.

And finally, there's a group that's on the fence. I'd say this is the largest group, and it's very volatile. There's tons of government propaganda on street billboards and in the media, and this group tends to get affected by all that. They're afraid of potential sectarian wars or total chaos that might ensue if the government was overthrown, and thus they're cautiously silent at the moment.

I know I'm way off topic here, so I'll move the conversation to another thread if needed.

 

[Macamus Prime]

I was under the impression that any "progress" made by the rebels resulted in defeat.

They are not organized, nor trained military personnel. I see them getting defeated. And, most likely made an example of.

 

[Darwin333]

They are not organized, nor trained military personnel. I see them getting defeated. And, most likely made an example of.

Neither were the people who fought, and won, the American revolution...


You would be surprised at what people can do and accomplish when it is absolutely necessary.

 

[woolfe9999]

OK if it's bullsh*t why did you 100% agree with me when you posted:
Anyway...Some obviously don't accept it. Some obviously do since a lot of people are not protesting, even if it has nothing to do with their own safety, the dictatorship just doesn't really bother them that much. It's part of their culture.

If the president of the US commanded his military to do what Assad has been doing they would revolt in very short order. Cultural difference. In the civilized West it is simply not accepted to gun down with live ammo peaceful protesters day after day after day and shell where they live. Nor would it be in any other first world country like Japan. This kind of savage behavior is status quo in much of the world, the Middle East seems to cherish it almost.

Or maybe the majority of people don't take to the streets after people are being "gunned down" in the streets, because the majority of the people don't want to get gunned down? That is the point of gunning people down after all.

In any culture you're going to find that the majority of the people will not participate in activities that have a high probability of getting them killed. Especially people who have spouses, kids, and other things to lose. Rebellions are usually the province of the young and unattached. The important thing in this case is that enough people decided to rebel that the dictatorship is being deposed.

- wolf

 

[Doppel]

Well after Gadhafi is either carted out in a body bag or in chains (unless some pissant nation harbors him) hopefully it will be Assad next.

 

[Doppel]

Hate or love but Bolton is on Fox right now saying that what we're seeing now we could have seen five months earlier if presidential (Obama) leadership had been better "NATO is the USA and always has been", and france/britain didn't have the ability or desire to push things ahead properly five months back, so the human toll could have been reduced if it had been sorted out back then.

 

[Jaskalas]

Hate or love but Bolton is on Fox right now saying that what we're seeing now we could have seen five months earlier if presidential (Obama) leadership had been better "NATO is the USA and always has been", and france/britain didn't have the ability or desire to push things ahead properly five months back, so the human toll could have been reduced if it had been sorted out back then.

While this is true, the full force of the United States military could crush a gnat, why is it our right to crush this gnat?

This is not due to the President, he has no authority to touch Libya. Congress did not declare war, and so we should not have even involved ourselves. The President walked a fine line trying to get this done without risking impeachment.

 

[judasmachine]

Where is the Qadaffi's forces will just melt away option?

 

[JSt0rm]

Hate or love but Bolton is on Fox right now saying that what we're seeing now we could have seen five months earlier if presidential (Obama) leadership had been better "NATO is the USA and always has been", and france/britain didn't have the ability or desire to push things ahead properly five months back, so the human toll could have been reduced if it had been sorted out back then.

what!??! the republicans were even against this joint effort of the world. Jeezus. Republicans are stuck on stupid. Like going in alone has really worked in the recent past they have the ballsack to say obama would of ended this thing 5 month earlier?

shocking. Maybe I'm shocked because I dont watch fox.

 

[Nintendesert]

Indeed, I've been wondering the same thing. Makes no sense to keep fighting unless they're close relatives and genuinely believe in him or something.

They're fighting because once the rebels take control there is a chance that they are going to execute every loyalist and their families. They may be fighting simply because there is no other way out.

 

[Fern]

what!??! the republicans were even against this joint effort of the world. Jeezus. Republicans are stuck on stupid. Like going in alone has really worked in the recent past they have the ballsack to say obama would of ended this thing 5 month earlier?

shocking. Maybe I'm shocked because I dont watch fox.

I don't think that's true.

Half of them wanted to go balls out/full force on Khadaffi. (e.g., Lindsey Graham)

Half seemed to want nothing to do with it.

I don't recall them ever really agreeing with each other about this.

Fern

 

[Fern]

There's been some fighting and push back from loyal forces. One has to wonder how stupid or blindly idiotic these people are who are still risking their lives for what is unequivocally and inevitably a lost cause at this point. I guess maybe they really love Gadhafi, those clowns who are still defending him.

I don't pay to much attention to the Libya thingy, but I've heard/read a couple of things that be relevant to your question about some Libyans loyalty.

1. Libya does have tribal groups similar to Iraq.

2. Libya was once 3 countries before being made into a an artificial entity by Italy.

3. The rebels have been crushing some town/villages along the way, looting them and burning/destroying homes. They are now decimated ghost towns. These towns/villages were from a (tribal) group(s) that was historically loyal to Khaddafy.

Might be that they have no chance but to fight to the death. Might be because of who they are, the rebels will slaughter them all anyway.

Personally, I see no reason so far for any loyalist to expect to survive. Some top military guy defected from Khaddafy and joined the rebels only later to be assassinated by them anyway.

Fern

 

[JSt0rm]

I don't think that's true.

Half of them wanted to go balls out/full force on Khadaffi. (e.g., Lindsey Graham)

Half seemed to want nothing to do with it.

I don't recall them ever really agreeing with each other about this.

Fern

Well Bolton wanted to do the same failed thing we have been doing for the last 10 years. And I am referring to people on this forum who wanted to impeach Obama over this. Lol.

 

[Doppel]

Sh*t is still going on. Perhaps The rebels did not after all control "90%" of the city. And his supposedly captured son is taking them on a trip around the city, wtf?

 

[Doppel]

According to Dailymail 22 SAS dressed as Arabs are on the ground involved in the effort to find Gadhafi. Sh*t got real, he'll be found soon I suspect. I don't see an 8-9 month drag out like with Saddam, not at all. If he hasn't yet made it to some friendly country to buy himself an estate to retire at it's probably too late.

 

[Jaskalas]

Might be that they have no chance but to fight to the death. Might be because of who they are, the rebels will slaughter them all anyway.

Personally, I see no reason so far for any loyalist to expect to survive. Some top military guy defected from Khaddafy and joined the rebels only later to be assassinated by them anyway.

Fern

That's terrible, and so true. Those military defectors were key to Libya's future stability. Seems the Rebels don't want anything to do with that.

 

[Doppel]

Gadhafi seen in Zimbabwe, according to some. Realize that there are endless rumors, though, may not be true.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-Mugabes-private-jet-rebels-march-Sirte.html

 

[Doppel]

Seems few care about this anymore, but Gadhafi, apparently, is wanting to negotiate now. The libyan rebels makes a good point: he has no position to negotiate from.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/08/28/libyan-rebels-reject-qaddafis-offer-to-talk/