Just a tip Gopunk, if you are going to argue that China isn't a Communism government, you should provide what government you would classify them as. If you can't find a better suiting government classification then you havn't proven anything.
I'm saying that their best description is communist. Trying to prove people wrong on a few technicalities of communism is hardly worth a debate.
i did not intend for this debate to happen, i just said it wasn't communist, people asked me to explain myself, and i did. i would have been perfectly fine if it didn't go further than that.
And remember, I didn't even know this thread existed until I got a PM someone was ripping me in a thread I never posted in. (an no it wasn't vespian). Be more careful in the future.
i would hardly call what i said a "rip", but i guess if you were somehow hurt or offended by it, i'm sorry.
and if it makes you feel any better, i didn't really mean to insult you or anything, i just felt that his and your posts were pretty similar.
Just a tip Gopunk, if you are going to argue that China isn't a Communism government, you should provide what government you would classify them as. If you can't find a better suiting government classification then you havn't proven anything.
that's bs, just because you can't classify them as any other type of government doesn't make them communist. it can not be determined through process of elimination since there is no set list of types of government. and i'm sure somebody could come up with an accurate term for them, but i don't really feel like trying.
i did not intend for this debate to happen, i just said it wasn't communist, people asked me to explain myself, and i did. i would have been perfectly fine if it didn't go further than that.
And remember, I didn't even know this thread existed until I got a PM someone was ripping me in a thread I never posted in. (an no it wasn't vespian). Be more careful in the future.
i would hardly call what i said a "rip", but i guess if you were somehow hurt or offended by it, i'm sorry.
and if it makes you feel any better, i didn't really mean to insult you or anything, i just felt that his and your posts were pretty similar.
Just a tip Gopunk, if you are going to argue that China isn't a Communism government, you should provide what government you would classify them as. If you can't find a better suiting government classification then you havn't proven anything.
that's bs, just because you can't classify them as any other type of government doesn't make them communist. it can not be determined through process of elimination since there is no set list of types of government. and i'm sure somebody could come up with an accurate term for them, but i don't really feel like trying.
<< i did not intend for this debate to happen, i just said it wasn't communist, people asked me to explain myself, and i did. i would have been perfectly fine if it didn't go further than that. >>
I doubt it very much. You knew claiming China was not communist would have people coming after you which let you play your game of microdebating when the premise of China being communist in reality is very sound. Not perfect, but very very close.
<< i would hardly call what i said a "rip" >>
LOL Spare us Gopunk. Lets look at the phrase you used : vespasian - are you related to texmaster or something? you're like chicken little jr.
At least be man enough to admit it was an attempt at a rip.
<< and if it makes you feel any better, i didn't really mean to insult you or anything, i just felt that his and your posts were pretty similar.
>>Then it WAS a rip. But as I proven here, your arguements can be easily dismissed once they are examined
I doubt it very much. You knew claiming China was not communist would have people coming after you which let you play your game of microdebating when the premise of China being communist in reality is very sound. Not perfect, but very very close.
go ahead and doubt it, but i really had no idea people were so adamant about china being communist, when it isn't.
LOL Spare us Gopunk. Lets look at the phrase you used : vespasian - are you related to texmaster or something? you're like chicken little jr.
At least be man enough to admit it was an attempt at a rip.
that was an attempt to imply that you and him were similar to the character "chicken little". if you want to go ahead and say that's a rip, fine, but i'm telling you, that was not intended to be some sort of personal attack.
i'm not going to sit here and debate the meaning of my words, like i said earlier, if you were hurt or offended by what i said, i'm sorry.
Then it WAS a rip.
i'm not seeing the connection you made, but that's okay.
But as I proven here, your arguements can be easily dismissed once they are examined
proven? all you've done is said that the best description is communism. that's not proof, that's convenience.
go ahead and doubt it, but i really had no idea people were so adamant about china being communist, when it isn't.
LOL Spare us Gopunk. Lets look at the phrase you used : vespasian - are you related to texmaster or something? you're like chicken little jr.
At least be man enough to admit it was an attempt at a rip.
that was an attempt to imply that you and him were similar to the character "chicken little". if you want to go ahead and say that's a rip, fine, but i'm telling you, that was not intended to be some sort of personal attack.
i'm not going to sit here and debate the meaning of my words, like i said earlier, if you were hurt or offended by what i said, i'm sorry.
Then it WAS a rip.
i'm not seeing the connection you made, but that's okay.
But as I proven here, your arguements can be easily dismissed once they are examined
proven? all you've done is said that the best description is communism. that's not proof, that's convenience.
<< Then ask where nukes in the US and Russia are pointed. The world is indeed a strange and a scary place >>
The US does not actively target anyone, they are all targeted at open ocean. This President directed this in the early '90's, I don't remember if it was Bush or Clinton, and it has not changed. Supposedly Russia does the same.
gopunk, regardless of what you think, the chinese declare themselves communist and fulfill the main requirements of communism. you can call them anything but communist all you want but that does not make them so.
<<
<< it isn't communist right now. >>
Huh? China is one of THE last remaining bastions of BONA FIDE communism in the world. China is not SOCIALIST. >>
um you are SORT OF RIGHT
communism is always socialism but socialism is not always communism
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
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<< have you been to china recently? it's really not *that* different from here... there are plenty of businesses, everybody has their own property, they don't have to share it with their neighbors or anything. >>
I suppose that if you ignore the the lack of freedom of religion and the fact that China forces abortions on it's people you're right!
<< go ahead and doubt it, but i really had no idea people were so adamant about china being communist, when it isn't. >>
LOL You are still doing it. I ask again, if communist doesn't fit their kind of governemnt more than ANY other, what would?
<< that was an attempt to imply that you and him were similar to the character "chicken little". if you want to go ahead and say that's a rip, fine, but i'm telling you, that was not intended to be some sort of personal attack. >>
It was an attempt to poke fun ie to rip on someone else. The more you deny it the more rediculus you look.
But as I proven here, your arguements can be easily dismissed once they are examined
<< proven? all you've done is said that the best description is communism. that's not proof, that's convenience. >>
Thats proof little buddy becuase your strengent denials relating China to communism were blown away. Microdebating is petty and outdated. Try focusing on something else
Gopunk - Lemme clarify some things.
In name China is still Communist. The CCP is the sole political entity in China, and all political cadres from the lowest to the highest level are all still members of the CCP. You would not be otherwise. By definition, the CCP really isn't a "party" because it has the poer to enfore that no other parties may exist. <--- This, by the way, is what makes China Communist. It is a violation of freedom of speech, one of the most important freedoms a citizen can have.
Having said that, communes have all been abolished, and state-owned enterprises and state-allocated job systems are in ruins. Private markets hold the key to profitability and therefore, the future of China's economy. It is well on its way to a transitional market economy, which is good. But as long as people are jailed for their political views, China will always remain communist to me.
In name China is still Communist. The CCP is the sole political entity in China, and all political cadres from the lowest to the highest level are all still members of the CCP. You would not be otherwise. By definition, the CCP really isn't a "party" because it has the poer to enfore that no other parties may exist. <--- This, by the way, is what makes China Communist. It is a violation of freedom of speech, one of the most important freedoms a citizen can have.
Having said that, communes have all been abolished, and state-owned enterprises and state-allocated job systems are in ruins. Private markets hold the key to profitability and therefore, the future of China's economy. It is well on its way to a transitional market economy, which is good. But as long as people are jailed for their political views, China will always remain communist to me.
<<
<< Then ask where nukes in the US and Russia are pointed. The world is indeed a strange and a scary place >>
The US does not actively target anyone, they are all targeted at open ocean. This President directed this in the early '90's, I don't remember if it was Bush or Clinton, and it has not changed. Supposedly Russia does the same. >>
And China is expected to have ICBM targeted to target U.S by 2015
<< CIA: China Expected to Target U.S.
<< WASHINGTON ?? China is expected to have between 75 and 100 long-range nuclear missiles pointed at the United States by 2015, roughly quadruple the current number, according to a CIA report released Wednesday.
Many of those intercontinental ballistic missiles will be on mobile launchers, helping China maintain a nuclear deterrent against the vastly larger U.S. missile force, says the report, titled "Foreign Missile Developments and the Ballistic Missile Threat Through 2015."
Echoing earlier intelligence estimates, the report also says North Korea and Iran will probably have long-range missiles capable of reaching the United States by 2015. These assessments have been used to justify U.S. plans for multibillion-dollar missile defense systems capable of shooting down a limited ICBM attack on the continental United States. >>
I don't understand this world.
>>Vespasian, have you not seen the response you got to your almost identical post? http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=677338
This is lame. Again it feeds into the peoples' paranoia. Not somehting we need at a time like this. The Chinese aren't that foolish. They just want the means to defend themselves as well. Funny how you conservatives can understand Bush's desire for missle defense, but when it counes to other countries, of course not... The nerve of them!
I've always said Americans are arrogant...
Thats proof little buddy becuase your strengent denials relating China to communism were blown away. Microdebating is petty and outdated. Try focusing on something else
no, that's not proof. the most proof i've seen here consists of settling for a term for lack of a better one. or some people saying "well, they're authoritarian, so they're communist". neither of which is *proof*. furthermore, i have no problem with *relating* china to communism, my issue is with calling it a communist country. you even have a problem with calling it a communist country, "Show me where I said that China was communist. Back up that BS. I said they lean heavily towards communism and they do"
i'm tired of this argument because it's the same thing over and over again... yes, i know china is authoritarian, yes i know they have poor human rights, but that doesn't make them communist. a communist government is "A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people." notice how the last (and most important) requirement is not fulfilled. a government can plan and control the economy, but that doesn't make it communist. a government can be authoritarian, but that doesn't make it communist. the thing that makes it communist is that it is (or claims to be) working towards that higher social order spoken of.
no, that's not proof. the most proof i've seen here consists of settling for a term for lack of a better one. or some people saying "well, they're authoritarian, so they're communist". neither of which is *proof*. furthermore, i have no problem with *relating* china to communism, my issue is with calling it a communist country. you even have a problem with calling it a communist country, "Show me where I said that China was communist. Back up that BS. I said they lean heavily towards communism and they do"
i'm tired of this argument because it's the same thing over and over again... yes, i know china is authoritarian, yes i know they have poor human rights, but that doesn't make them communist. a communist government is "A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people." notice how the last (and most important) requirement is not fulfilled. a government can plan and control the economy, but that doesn't make it communist. a government can be authoritarian, but that doesn't make it communist. the thing that makes it communist is that it is (or claims to be) working towards that higher social order spoken of.
- Aug 10, 2001
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<< Vespasian, have you not seen the response you got to your almost identical post? http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=677338 >>
Identical post? My other post had nothing to do with ICBMs. I post two measly articles about China, and people are calling me paranoid? Didn't I say in the other post to the take the article with a "huge grain of salt?"
<< i'm tired of this argument because it's the same thing over and over again... yes, i know china is authoritarian, yes i know they have poor human rights, but that doesn't make them communist. a communist government is "A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people." notice how the last (and most important) requirement is not fulfilled. a government can plan and control the economy, but that doesn't make it communist. a government can be authoritarian, but that doesn't make it communist. the thing that makes it communist is that it is (or claims to be) working towards that higher social order spoken of. >>
Well lets go one step further. Why does China disallow certain rights and freedoms, such as the ones you describe? It's because they are inconsistent and unnecessary in the grand scheme of communist goals. But China dissolved pretty much all major plans for traditional communist institutions by the mid-80's so what gives? I'll tell you. To allow such freedoms would be an outright acknowledgement of the wrongs they committed in the 60's and 70's. That will have a snowball effect and cause all sorts of disharmony such as riots, monetary devaluation and the dissolution of the country (think USSR).
So they're taking it slowly. But until the CCP dossolves, China is still run solely by the Chinese COMMUNIST Party. While you describe correct communist institutions, the thing to remember is whose in charge, and what the objectives are.
- Aug 10, 2001
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There was a reference in that article to ICBMs. I apologize. But that's not why I posted that other article.
<<
<< Vespasian, have you not seen the response you got to your almost identical post? http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=677338 >>
Identical post? My other post had nothing to do with ICBMs. I post two measly articles about China, and people are calling me paranoid? Didn't I say in the other post to the take the article with a "huge grain of salt?" >>
Yeah, true. My bad.
I wanna point out just that we don't need something frivolous to concern ourselves with right now. Again, China is doing somehting very natural for a growing possible future superpower to do - thats defend itself. I don't see why its so hard to understand that since we do it more than anyone.
That doesn't mean they're millitant and it certainly doesn't mean we need to consider nuking them. Their interests will be much better served by being our allies, and they know that.
Well lets go one step further. Why does China disallow certain rights and freedoms, such as the ones you describe? It's because they are inconsistent and unnecessary in the grand scheme of communist goals. But China dissolved pretty much all major plans for traditional communist institutions by the mid-80's so what gives? I'll tell you. To allow such freedoms would be an outright acknowledgement of the wrongs they committed in the 60's and 70's. That will have a snowball effect and cause all sorts of disharmony such as riots, monetary devaluation and the dissolution of the country (think USSR).
well, i kind of agree with this... i'll explain. you're right, to allow such freedoms would be acknowledgment of wrongs and whatnot, they are afraid of losing power. but that's the thing, right now the government is more or less solely concerned with just keeping power. it has no aspiration of fulfilling communist goals (though one could argue that power is a traditional communist goal). this is why i don't consider it communist. when china gave up on communism, it ceased to be communist.
So they're taking it slowly. But until the CCP dossolves, China is still run solely by the Chinese COMMUNIST Party. While you describe correct communist institutions, the thing to remember is whose in charge, and what the objectives are.
the thing is, we both recognize that the government (ie, ccp), has given up on communism. communism is no longer their objective, so while the people in charge still call themselves communist (for political reasons...), because their objective is no loner communist, i don't think they should be considered communist.
well, i kind of agree with this... i'll explain. you're right, to allow such freedoms would be acknowledgment of wrongs and whatnot, they are afraid of losing power. but that's the thing, right now the government is more or less solely concerned with just keeping power. it has no aspiration of fulfilling communist goals (though one could argue that power is a traditional communist goal). this is why i don't consider it communist. when china gave up on communism, it ceased to be communist.
So they're taking it slowly. But until the CCP dossolves, China is still run solely by the Chinese COMMUNIST Party. While you describe correct communist institutions, the thing to remember is whose in charge, and what the objectives are.
the thing is, we both recognize that the government (ie, ccp), has given up on communism. communism is no longer their objective, so while the people in charge still call themselves communist (for political reasons...), because their objective is no loner communist, i don't think they should be considered communist.
<<
<< have you been to china recently? it's really not *that* different from here... there are plenty of businesses, everybody has their own property, they don't have to share it with their neighbors or anything. >>
I suppose that if you ignore the the lack of freedom of religion and the fact that China forces abortions on it's people you're right! >>
The US is mainly Christian and abortions are just about illegal.
Opposites?
<<
<< Then ask where nukes in the US and Russia are pointed. The world is indeed a strange and a scary place >>
The US does not actively target anyone, they are all targeted at open ocean. This President directed this in the early '90's, I don't remember if it was Bush or Clinton, and it has not changed. Supposedly Russia does the same. >>
hmmm...what's on the other side of the ocean? I am sure China's missles are pointing at the open ocean too.
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