Is this a scam? Please advise (buying car through 'dealer' at auction)

[cassiebrighton]

Hello!!

I am in Houston, TX

This is Cassie, how are you? I am looking for a new car and came across an individual who, for a fee, is willing to take me to a Manheim auction in Houston, tomorrow, or whenever there is an auction that is convenient to both of us.

I have verified that the auction is tomorrow, and I saw him get the list from the Manheim site when we met. So, I have the run/lane list for the auction.

I met him in person today and got mixed vibes. Here is how he wants this deal to go through:

1) Meet at the auction lot tomorrow morning to inspect the cars

2) Bid (I will be there and him too) to bid on the car I select

3) If I win the bid, the clerk will give him a receipt to go pay

4) I can go with him to pay - he has agreed that I pay a deposit and then go get the rest of the money in cash

5) I pay him the complete money and he will give me a bill of sale

6) Next, supposedly his 'cousin' who is the dealer will send me the dealer plates via email which I can print out and then I can drive the car home

7) If Manheim does not have the title at the time of sale, which most likely they do not, I will meet the 'cousin' at the courthouse when the title arrives and pay the TTL.

When I asked the individual I met what is the TTL he was a bit shady about it, saying that it can vary by courthouse, and dealers make a profit on it, etc.

So, if I do go through with this...I would pay the entire amount and receive a bill of sale in person, then I would supposedly be emailed the temporary tags in a couple of hours, and then in a few days/weeks, I would go to the courthouse with the dealer/cousin to get the title, and pay TTL.

Is this a for sure scam or is there any degree of truth in this? And anything I can do to protect myself if I want to go through with this?

And if it is a scam, how come he has access to the dealer auction, can take me the auction, etc.?

Thank you!!
Cass

 

[Greenman]

Sounds like a scam to me. A bill of sale is worthless, I can send you one for the Bay bridge, the title is what you're after. I wouldn't be part of any deal where I didn't walk away with the car and the title.

 

[cassiebrighton]

Hi greenman,

Thank you for your reply...and for being the first and only one to reply!!

You are a sweetheart! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

He is willing to let me drive off with the car, but I presume that is no good...I presume the actual dealer can file a complaint of car theft and have me behind bars.....

Am I safe driving of the car and a bill of sale?

Please advise!!

Cass

 

[TheFamilyMan]

You do not want to touch this deal with a 10ft pole.

The only way you should do this deal is with the title with the car. Period. End of story.

Even if he lets you drive off with the car, that is still no good and you could be on the losing end of a very bad deal.

If they want to sell you the car and you want to buy it, tell them both to get the car back to the dealer and you will purchase at that point. Also, do not purchase until you take to an independent mechanic to get a PPI done to insure nothing is wrong with the car.

 

[cassiebrighton]

Hello TheFamilyMan,

Thank you for your reply as well.

Can you educate me why I could be on the losing end if I drive off the car without a title but with a 'bill of sale'

Given your advice I am not planning to do it, but I want to know what can happen.

Could the owner of the car have me arrested for theft although I have a bill of sale?

Again, I am not planning to do this, but just want to be aware....so I can thank myself for staying away.

Thanks!
Cassie

 

[xaeniac]

All a bill of sale is a sheet of paper stating the car was purchased. It holds no weight unless notarized and even then, this states that an agreement was made between two individuals. Transfer of ownership is done through the title. Let's say I sold you another person's car, gave you a bill of sale and took your cash. This person comes looking for their car. You say I got this bill of sale (which is a worthless piece of paper) that shows that it is your car. He/she says give me the car or die, while I run off with the money. Comprend? Many times you buy vehicles at these auctions/dealerships they do have to mail the titles as I have bought cars out of state and took the car home without a title.

 

[Wingznut]

Why would you want to do this???

Even if it isn't an outright scam, there are just too many ways this can go wrong for you... And what exactly would you be getting for all the risk?

 

[Soccerman06]

OK I'm going to try to help you with what I do know about Manheim. I have bought cars through it before and it is a legitimate auction. It is a company that runs vehicle auctions for dealers, so that they can move old inventory or vehicles they can't repair on their own. The vehicle can be sold online eBay style as well as in person at the large city auctions. At these large auctions they can go through literally 10000 cars in a day, each car takes maybe 20 second to sell so you have to decide quick. When or if you win, the car is sold as is, any dings or engine work is on you. Usually there is an on site mechanic to do minor fixes asap at cost. If the seller has a well documented condition report I wouldn't worry about it beyond what's on there. Manheim does not own the car so they do not have the title, whoever owns the vehicle, bank or dealer has it. The biggest thing to remember about this auction is your buying as is used cars and they may have issues.

The dealer your going through may be legit or not I don't know, but Manheim is a real thing and it itself is not a scam.

 

[cassiebrighton]

Hello,

Thanks for your replies. Soccerman, thank you for your advice. I have no doubts about Manheim and their authenticity.

My doubts are about the 'dealer' and the nature of the transaction.

A quick update. I just told the 'dealer representative' that I would be willing to put down a slight deposit and then pay the balance when the title is in hand.

He replies by saying that I do not know this business and that once he gives me the dealer temporary tags it would indicate that he has informed the courthouse that the car is sold to me.

The TTL transfer would then happen when the title is given to the dealer from the auction house.

Does this seem legitimate? Does a temporary dealers plate provide me with the legal rights to the vehicle? Can't these be forged?

Any thoughts please?

Cass

 

[halik]

If you're looking to do consignment buying from Manheim, call up Bruce Mendel over at http://www.becksimports.com/html/contact.html (assuming you're in jersey). He has a service and charges around 10% over the auction price, without all the shady dealing.

 

[silicon]

Hello!!

I am in Houston, TX

This is Cassie, how are you? I am looking for a new car and came across an individual who, for a fee, is willing to take me to a Manheim auction in Houston, tomorrow, or whenever there is an auction that is convenient to both of us.

I have verified that the auction is tomorrow, and I saw him get the list from the Manheim site when we met. So, I have the run/lane list for the auction.

I met him in person today and got mixed vibes. Here is how he wants this deal to go through:

1) Meet at the auction lot tomorrow morning to inspect the cars

2) Bid (I will be there and him too) to bid on the car I select

3) If I win the bid, the clerk will give him a receipt to go pay

4) I can go with him to pay - he has agreed that I pay a deposit and then go get the rest of the money in cash

5) I pay him the complete money and he will give me a bill of sale

6) Next, supposedly his 'cousin' who is the dealer will send me the dealer plates via email which I can print out and then I can drive the car home

7) If Manheim does not have the title at the time of sale, which most likely they do not, I will meet the 'cousin' at the courthouse when the title arrives and pay the TTL.

When I asked the individual I met what is the TTL he was a bit shady about it, saying that it can vary by courthouse, and dealers make a profit on it, etc.

So, if I do go through with this...I would pay the entire amount and receive a bill of sale in person, then I would supposedly be emailed the temporary tags in a couple of hours, and then in a few days/weeks, I would go to the courthouse with the dealer/cousin to get the title, and pay TTL.

Is this a for sure scam or is there any degree of truth in this? And anything I can do to protect myself if I want to go through with this?

And if it is a scam, how come he has access to the dealer auction, can take me the auction, etc.?

Thank you!!
Cass

i have to ask you your reason for taking such a complicated path to buying a car. Cars sold at auction are "as is" with no warranty. You would be better off to look for a private sale or go thru a dealer.

 

[CurseTheSky]

A situation like this is something I would consider for buying a toy, or a vehicle that I didn't desperately need. In other words, if it was cheap and I COULD live without it if something went wrong, it might be a way to score a decent vehicle without paying much.

However, if you're looking to buy a trouble-free vehicle that you can drive soon and not worry about, I would stay away. This isn't just due to possible hidden problems with the vehicle, but also in case something isn't kosher with the deal going on. Losing out on $3k / having to take someone to court is bad enough, but having to do it all while being without a vehicle that you absolutely needed to drive is 10 times worse.

If you do go through with this, I would research the auction and dealer situations online (for example, is it normal / expected to have to wait a few days to get the title, or is that a huge red flag?) from others that have been to it, and get absolutely everything in writing. If you were to buy a vehicle and the dealer promised to get you two sets of keys or said they have the original wheels sitting back in a garage somewhere, make them write it down and sign it, at the very least. It may or may not be enough to have legal recourse if they don't hold up their end of the deal - talk to a lawyer first to get real legal advice - but it's certainly better than verbal promises and a he said / she said situation.

 

[cassiebrighton]

Hello,

Thank you for your replies, I appreciate it.

Halik, I am unable to PM you. Thank you for the reference to Becks Imports. Can I give them your reference, i.e. say you introduced me to them?

You are welcome to PM me if you wish.

Thanks,
Cass

 

[Soccerman06]

Shesh 10% for an auction where all they do is spend 5 minutes doing a proxy bid? I would seriously question that. Ive always done 500 over cost.

 

[cassiebrighton]

Hi soccerman06,

Thanks for your reply and advice. I doubt I am going to go with that individual.

Do you know if the $500 over cost option is still available through whomever you dealt with?

Thanks,
Cass

 

[BUTCH1]

If you are paying cash I would just look for a private seller and use a mechanic for the inspection, maybe there are deals to be had at the auction but from what your describing it seems like a lot can go wrong. Keep in mind a dealer will take anything in trade, then say they discover the tranny has the beginnings of issues or a cylinder has low compression, they won't want to sell it used as it would just come back as a very unhappy customer and they don't want to foot the bill to repair it properly because that means taking a huge loss on the car, solution?, send it to the auction. If your the type that can do repair work then maybe, a co-worker bought a 1970 Impala Custom (high-trim for that year) with a super-clean body and interior but missing on one cylinder, he got it for $400, turns out it had a bent pushrod so he replaced that and the spring for that valve and it ran like butter. It's kind of a gamble though so YMMV.

 

[cassiebrighton]

Hello!

Thank you for your advice, I have steered away from the 'auction' offer. I am now looking for legitimate used cars in my budget ~$5000-6000 through private individuals.

I viewed a used BMW 528i, year 2000, with about 105,000 miles, it belongs to a neighbor, and the offer seems legit.

The price is about $5,000 and the car is in fair shape cosmetically. We have agreed to take it to a prepurchase inspection at my cost if I am interested.

Do you think this is a good offer? I am not looking to keep a car for two decades, just something to commute in for the next 4-6 years.

I do not want to lease and deal with the hassle if the car gets a dent, scratch, etc., unplanned, but things happen.

I thought maybe a little luxury would be nice if the offer is fair, but not sure if the model/year/vehicle type is a no-no?

I have seen NADA, KBB pricing and there is some room for a discount, but I am sure we can work that out if I am seriously interested.

Any thoughts please?

Thanks!
Cassie

 

[cassiebrighton]

Hey,

I have been told that the BMW I am considering may be expensive to fix, so I am having second thoughts on the 528i.

So...I guess I will have to continue my search...!

Any advice on what I should get:

1) Looking to spend $5000-6000

2) Located in Houston, TX

3) Prefer to buy through a legitimate private individual or source without the high dealer markups

4) Need the car to commute about 800 miles a month, not more, just street and some highway driving.

5) Want to at least have a few years use left in the car, without astronomical repairs etc.

6) I have no technical or mechanical knowledge of cars, so I am not looking to buy a car than I can fix on my own etc. I cannot

7) Good gas mileage will help.

Any thoughts on what brand/mileage/year I should look for any another reliable sources apart from autotrader, CL?

Thank you,
Cassie

 

[DominionSeraph]

I viewed a used BMW 528i, year 2000, with about 105,000 miles, it belongs to a neighbor, and the offer seems legit.

Blue book is $4400 Very Good, $4670 Excellent condition. And if you don't want to deal with the "hassle" of the possibility of a scratch to a leased car, somehow I don't think you'll enjoy the upkeep and repair costs of an out-of-warranty foreign luxury car.

 

[cassiebrighton]

Hi,

Thank you for your replies. DominionSeraph....thank you for your advice. I guess I prefer to buy if I can find a good used car in my price range, rather than lease

Thank you!
Cassie

 

[monkeydelmagico]

Does your budget of $5k allow for repairs? What I mean is if you spent $5k on the car, got it home, and found out it needed some repairs would you be able to spend to fix it?
If the answer is no, your car shopping budget should really be <$4k.-

The best contenders for cheap and reliable are anything toyota or honda. There is a premium because everyone wants them.

I've had great luck finding mazda 3's and 6's for cheaper and since you are not in the rust zone they will last just as long. If you are looking for a little fun the Miata is both entertaining and very reliable. Look for one that the top has been replaced on.

Another solid contender in your budget is the ford focus. Dirt cheap. Fairly reliable.

Avoid early hyundais, kias, most dodge products, and the older germans.

 

[desy]

The 5000 car that's cheap to run and reliable is always a Pontiac Vibe 'rebadged Toyota' or an 05+ Ford Focus
Toyotas and Hondas are plenty reliable but expensive on the used market

 

[railer]

Go to cars.com, put your max price at 5k, and search for Hondas and Toyotas.
Figure out what a mid 2000's civic or corolla is worth (or similar model) and buy it.
I wouldn't worry too much about whether it's from a dealer or not. Just know what the car is worth, and don't pay more than what it's worth. You can overpay at a private seller, or at an auction, just as easily as you can at a dealer.

 

[theeedude]

I bought my first car like that (a loaded 5 year old Maxima with 70K for $9K) and another (Altima) for my grandmother, below BlueBook wholesale (trade-in) prices. Worked out fine, but it was someone who was recommended by someone else I trusted who has done it. This was before craigslist, so maybe there are better options now.
So it's not necessarily a scam. It's likely just someone with a dealer license making some money on the side. But do your due diligence. Maybe check the guy's dealer license with the state, and make sure he is legit. If he was in the business of stealing money, maybe the state would have revoked his license.
The main issue with these (or at least the one I went to) is they don't let you drive the car. They may or may not let you start it, but not to drive it. I guess they drive it up to the actual auction room, but you don't get to. So, make sure you margin for whatever could be broken that you can't tell without a test drive in your price. Like $3K for tranny rebuild. So bid $3K less than you would be willing to buy it on open market. Most of the time, the car is fine, and you get to keep that $3K.
Also, even if there is no reserve, the seller's agent may be there bidding against you to make sure it doesn't sell for too little. They do want to sell the car, so they won't bid up too much. But find several cars you like and stick to your price, so if someone is bidding up one, you can move on to the next. These are dealer auctions, so the expectation is that cars will sell at a discount so dealer can make some profit.
The guy I went with only charged fee if you bought a car, and I think it was $100 or so. So you could come back later if you don't find anything you like for the price you want. Also, there is usually a reason why the dealer wants to sell the car on dealer auction instead of trying to sell it himself. Either it's not in top shape, or it's a niche product, not a good fit for his dealership, low demand for it, or he has too many of this particular car already. The cars I bought were in good, but not "dealer certified" shape. Maxima had a rear tint that was a bit blurry and weird looking "Niche" chrome rims that ended up being pretty pricey, so I sold them for a chunk of money on ebay and got stock rims for less. I later found out from a guy who recognized the car in a parking lot that it was owned by a guy who OD'd on something. I did a thorough sweep for drugs just in case Other than that, the car was fine, I drove it till 150K with just maintenance.

 

[cassiebrighton]

Hello!

Thank you for the replies. I am actively following it and looking at cars that meet my requirements and would get your approval!!

I have come across a 2008 Toyota Yaris (4 door sedan) that seems to be legitimate. The 2nd owner is selling it, and a VIN check report did not show any salvage/junk titles.

It has 95,000 miles and is priced at $5900 which is slightly lower than the KBB price for a good car...which is slightly concerning.

I plan to get it checked by an independent mechanic if the seller is agreeable to it, which they should be if they are legit.

Is this worth considering?

Thank you!
Cassie