Is there such a thing as a TRUE DUAL digital tuner PiP on an HDTV?

[computer]

Hey guys, trying to find an HDTV (LCD or plasma) with some kind of TRUE dual digital tuner PiP seems useless. Does such a thing exist? If so, which TV? I thought the LN40A650 had it, but to my dismay, it's the totally useless single tuner PiP. (Who wants to watch TV and a DVD at the same time? Watch the TV program, then watch the DVD at your convenience).

The Sony KDF42WE655 appears it may have a dual tuner, but I can't find out if it's digital. One HD/digital tuner and one analog tuner would be useless after Feb. 2009.

Do I even need this to watch 2 TV channels at once? Am I to understand that it's possible to hook up the basic cable line to one input, then the cable box (for premium and movie channels) to another input and get a "pseudo dual tuner PiP" that way?
Thanks.

 

[biggestmuff]

visit the manufacturers' websites. they sometimes create slightly higher end models that aren't sold at CC or BB stores. You'll have to go to an upscale A/V store to find them.

 

[computer]

That's what I'm doing, but they don't say important information, and it's taking me weeks do this, that's why I had to ask here if anyone has one, or has seen one.

The Sony KDF-42WE655 isn't even at the main Sony site anymore. But it's at http://www.sonystyle.com/webap...=-1&productId=11037909 and I read the manual (under the "Specs" link) but like I said, they don't say anything about if both tuners are digital, I'm not even totally positive it has two. They also call it a "rear projection LCD" and I never heard of such a thing. I can't find out if that's just a typical LCD. There's also several bad reviews on it regarding the "blue blob syndrome".

The Samsung has glowing reviews and most agree it's the best made right now. It has 2 RF inputs. So, if it has 2 RF inputs, then why does it say you have to do this on page 9 of the manual (URL below) under "Connecting to a Cable Box that Descrambles Some Channels" where it mentions a splitter setup? Why couldn't basic cable be hooked to one RF, and the premium box to the other RF? Is one RF input analog, therefore useless after Feb. '09?http://downloadcenter.samsung....-01429A-02L02-0229.pdf
Or could basic cable be hooked up to one of the RF's, then premium digital cable to a HDMI input and get PiP that way (using the cable box's TV tuner as the 2nd tuner source)? Page 31 of that PDF file says analog only for the 2nd PiP source!

Are the RF inputs ONLY analog? Because in its description it states:

"Built-In HDTV Tuner:
Add HD-capable antenna to receive over-the-air high-definition broadcasts, where available. Optional set-top box required for high-definition cable or satellite programming."

Now if it has a built-in HDTV tuner, then why would you have to have a cable box?? This sounds like it does NOT have an HDTV tuner, that you must use the cable company's box for that!

Could some separate external HDTV tuner be used for PiP?

Regarding: Do I even need dual tuner PiP to watch 2 TV channels at once? Am I to understand that it's possible to hook up the basic cable line to one input, then the cable box (for premium and movie channels) to another input and get a "pseudo dual tuner PiP" that way? I found this at some website:

"There are a couple of varieties of PIP. Single-tuner PIP is the most basic, while dual-tuner PIP is the better of the two. With single-tuner PIP, you need the tuner from a VCR or a cable box in order to watch a program on one channel and get another in the small PIP window.
But how would you hook that up? An analog cable box (useless), or digital?

It continues:
Dual-tuner PIP allows the TV to do this without the external tuner. *Some high-end HDTV RPTVs actually have a dual-tuner PIP that will allow you to use it with both an NTSC source (standard TV) and an HDTV source simultaneously."

*But if that's the case; one tuner HDTV and the other NTSC, then after Feb. 2009 it would be useless because there will be no more NTSC, correct??

I'm so frustrated and confused I'm about to lose it. :disgust: :roll: If there is a way to get true PiP with the Samsung using the methods I mentioned above, then I'll get it.

 

[erwos]

Originally posted by: computer
"Built-In HDTV Tuner:
Add HD-capable antenna to receive over-the-air high-definition broadcasts, where available. Optional set-top box required for high-definition cable or satellite programming."

Now if it has a built-in HDTV tuner, then why would you have to have a cable box?? This sounds like it does NOT have an HDTV tuner, that you must use the cable company's box for that!

Um, no. It can receive ATSC broadcasts over the air. ATSC most definitely supports HD (one of the major selling points of the standard, in fact!). The reason you can't do the same with cable is because it's "broadcast" in an encrypted form, which needs a proprietary cable box or a CableCard-enabled box to decrypt. Satellite has a similar situation. If the tuner supports clear QAM, you could probably pick up those same OTA stations on your tuner if you were to plug in the cable line straight to it.

Your second analog tuner won't be useless after Feb 2009 unless you're actually using an antenna for it. Cable companies will continue to send analog NTSC down their lines for a while longer.

I think the simple answer is, no, you're probably not going to find any HDTVs with PiP ATSC/clear QAM dual tuners. IMHO, your best bet is to wait for a TiVo or DVR that'll do it.

 

[computer]

I'm exhausted and I'll read over that tonight, thanks for the info.

The Olevia 742i has a dual HDTV tuner. I had looked at it and saved the manual, but I can't figure out now why it was no longer an option. Maybe bad reviews. ? I'll be checking into that ASAP.

Originally posted by: erwos

Originally posted by: computer
"Built-In HDTV Tuner:
Add HD-capable antenna to receive over-the-air high-definition broadcasts, where available. Optional set-top box required for high-definition cable or satellite programming."

Now if it has a built-in HDTV tuner, then why would you have to have a cable box?? This sounds like it does NOT have an HDTV tuner, that you must use the cable company's box for that!

Um, no. It can receive ATSC broadcasts over the air. ATSC most definitely supports HD (one of the major selling points of the standard, in fact!). The reason you can't do the same with cable is because it's "broadcast" in an encrypted form, which needs a proprietary cable box or a CableCard-enabled box to decrypt. Satellite has a similar situation. If the tuner supports clear QAM, you could probably pick up those same OTA stations on your tuner if you were to plug in the cable line straight to it.

Your second analog tuner won't be useless after Feb 2009 unless you're actually using an antenna for it. Cable companies will continue to send analog NTSC down their lines for a while longer.

I think the simple answer is, no, you're probably not going to find any HDTVs with PiP ATSC/clear QAM dual tuners. IMHO, your best bet is to wait for a TiVo or DVR that'll do it.

 

[erwos]

Originally posted by: computer
The Olevia 742i has a dual HDTV tuner. I had looked at it and saved the manual, but I can't figure out now why it was no longer an option. Maybe bad reviews. ? I'll be checking into that ASAP.

Just remember that this won't get you anything but ATSC/clear QAM/NTSC channels. It will _not_ get you encrypted QAM, which is basically anything that makes digital cable worth paying for.

EDIT: actually, looking at the reviews, it can apparently PiP HDMI in HDMI, or HDMI in Component, etc. Very neat feature. So with two cable boxes, you could indeed have full PiP. Bad news is, the LCD itself isn't that great, and it's on the expensive side.

 

[computer]

Originally posted by: erwos
Just remember that this won't get you anything but ATSC/clear QAM/NTSC channels. It will _not_ get you encrypted QAM, which is basically anything that makes digital cable worth paying for.

EDIT: actually, looking at the reviews, it can apparently PiP HDMI in HDMI, or HDMI in Component, etc. Very neat feature. So with two cable boxes, you could indeed have full PiP. Bad news is, the LCD itself isn't that great, and it's on the expensive side.

Does your edit supersede your first paragraph, or does the first paragraph still hold true?

Two cable boxes would not be needed for basic cable though, right? I only use the cable box when I want to watch something on the premium channels.

It's less expensive than the Sony and Samsung. It was really cheap, less than $1000 but of course the price when up on it recently. I remembered why it was no longer an option, Consumer Reports didn't like the 747i, which should be pretty much the same as the 742i. But users seem to like the 742i a lot.

I'd really prefer the Samsung if there was a way I could get true PiP with it. It has only one tuner, and the 2nd source can apparently only be analog. So even if the FTC continued to broadcast analog after Feb. '09, I don't guess that would matter since it doesn't have a 2nd tuner. ?? Or would there be a way it could work?

According to this, there will be no analog broadcast after Feb. 18th 2009:
At midnight on February 17, 2009, all full-power television stations in the United States will stop broadcasting in analog and switch to 100% digital broadcasting.
Congress? legislation ensures the transition is completed by February 17, 2009, at which time broadcasters must return their analog spectrum and begin broadcasting in the digital format only. At that point, full-power TV stations will cease broadcasting on their current analog channels, and the spectrum they use for analog broadcasting will be reclaimed by the government and put to other uses.

So I'm really confused, and to make matters even more confusing, the Gov't DTV2009 website says your options are:

"1. Keep your existing analog TV and purchase a TV converter box. A converter box plugs into your TV and will keep it working after Feb. 17, 2009, or
2. Connect to cable, satellite or other pay service, or
3. Purchase a television with a digital tuner."

So according to that, #2, those that use cable TV won't need to do anything, even if your TV is analog! This from their site also supports that statement:

4. Do I need a converter box if I have cable or satellite?

A: TVs connected to cable, satellite, or other pay services do not require a TV converter box from this program to receive programs after February 17, 2009. Check with your cable or satellite provider to determine how they will support your analog set after February 17, 2009.

Therefore, if one has cable TV, then it should not make any difference whether or not a 2nd tuner is digital or analog.

Cox's website says:
Cox recognizes that some customers will still have analog-only TVs at this cut-off date. Therefore, Cox will continue to offer analog broadcast signals for at least three years after this deadline for those customers that have not upgraded all TVs to Cox Digital Cable. The signal will be down-converted from its digital format, enabling customers to receive digital broadcast programming in an analog format.

But look at the first area in the chart of options: http://cox.com/support/cable/transition_main.asp . Do Cox customers have to "do nothing" for 3 years because Cox will also be broadcasting in analog, OR, does that have nothing to do with it and it's some other reason?

Q: Will consumers be able to watch digital TV on their existing analog sets?
A: All Cox customers will be able to watch these stations on any TV hooked up to cable. Cox Digital Cable customers already receive these channels in digital format, and Cox is committed to converting these broadcast channels for its analog customers for at least three years after this deadline. Non-cable customers can subscribe to our service or obtain an digital-to-analog converter box from many retail outlets beginning in mid-February 2008.

I subscribe to Cox digital services, and according to that above, that means I'm receiving a digital signal. So how is this possible on an analog TV? It's not because they are broadcasting it in analog, because they state "Cox is committed to converting these broadcast channels for its analog customers for at least three years after this deadline", and I'm not an analog customer.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: computer

Originally posted by: erwos
Just remember that this won't get you anything but ATSC/clear QAM/NTSC channels. It will _not_ get you encrypted QAM, which is basically anything that makes digital cable worth paying for.

EDIT: actually, looking at the reviews, it can apparently PiP HDMI in HDMI, or HDMI in Component, etc. Very neat feature. So with two cable boxes, you could indeed have full PiP. Bad news is, the LCD itself isn't that great, and it's on the expensive side.

Does your edit supersede your first paragraph, or does the first paragraph still hold true?

Two cable boxes would not be needed for basic cable though, right? I only use the cable box when I want to watch something on the premium channels.

It's less expensive than the Sony and Samsung. It was really cheap, less than $1000 but of course the price when up on it recently. I remembered why it was no longer an option, Consumer Reports didn't like the 747i, which should be pretty much the same as the 742i. But users seem to like the 742i a lot.

I'd really prefer the Samsung if there was a way I could get true PiP with it. It has only one tuner, and the 2nd source can apparently only be analog. So even if the FTC continued to broadcast analog after Feb. '09, I don't guess that would matter since it doesn't have a 2nd tuner. ?? Or would there be a way it could work?

According to this, there will be no analog broadcast after Feb. 18th 2009:
At midnight on February 17, 2009, all full-power television stations in the United States will stop broadcasting in analog and switch to 100% digital broadcasting.
Congress? legislation ensures the transition is completed by February 17, 2009, at which time broadcasters must return their analog spectrum and begin broadcasting in the digital format only. At that point, full-power TV stations will cease broadcasting on their current analog channels, and the spectrum they use for analog broadcasting will be reclaimed by the government and put to other uses.

So I'm really confused, and to make matters even more confusing, the Gov't DTV2009 website says your options are:

"1. Keep your existing analog TV and purchase a TV converter box. A converter box plugs into your TV and will keep it working after Feb. 17, 2009, or
2. Connect to cable, satellite or other pay service, or
3. Purchase a television with a digital tuner."

So according to that, #2, those that use cable TV won't need to do anything, even if your TV is analog! This from their site also supports that statement:

4. Do I need a converter box if I have cable or satellite?

A: TVs connected to cable, satellite, or other pay services do not require a TV converter box from this program to receive programs after February 17, 2009. Check with your cable or satellite provider to determine how they will support your analog set after February 17, 2009.

Therefore, if one has cable TV, then it should not make any difference whether or not a 2nd tuner is digital or analog.

Cox's website says:
Cox recognizes that some customers will still have analog-only TVs at this cut-off date. Therefore, Cox will continue to offer analog broadcast signals for at least three years after this deadline for those customers that have not upgraded all TVs to Cox Digital Cable. The signal will be down-converted from its digital format, enabling customers to receive digital broadcast programming in an analog format.

But look at the first area in the chart of options: http://cox.com/support/cable/transition_main.asp . Do Cox customers have to "do nothing" for 3 years because Cox will also be broadcasting in analog, OR, does that have nothing to do with it and it's some other reason?

Q: Will consumers be able to watch digital TV on their existing analog sets?
A: All Cox customers will be able to watch these stations on any TV hooked up to cable. Cox Digital Cable customers already receive these channels in digital format, and Cox is committed to converting these broadcast channels for its analog customers for at least three years after this deadline. Non-cable customers can subscribe to our service or obtain an digital-to-analog converter box from many retail outlets beginning in mid-February 2008.

I subscribe to Cox digital services, and according to that above, that means I'm receiving a digital signal. So how is this possible on an analog TV? It's not because they are broadcasting it in analog, because they state "Cox is committed to converting these broadcast channels for its analog customers for at least three years after this deadline", and I'm not an analog customer.

You need to focus your questions/thoughts because right now you're all over the place and its hard to help you when you ask varying questions throughout your thread.

As for the switch to digital, this only affects over the air broadcasts. Cable companies can continue to send analog signals if they were before across their cables. If you had a dual tuner cable box, then you wouldn't have to worry about anything. Just hook each up to a different input and watch both at the same time. With a single cable box you would be pretty much screwed. If you didn't need a cable box then you would need a fancy dual tuner in the TV which your finding out is rare.

Ask your cable company if they provide a dual tuner cable box. If each tuner has an array of outputs, you should be able to get that to work.

 

[erwos]

OK, let's try this again. And, from now on, just ask questions and post links - copying and pasting huge swathes of the Cox site makes it hard to read your posts.

The February 2009 cut-off is _only_ for over-the-air analog broadcast. It does not affect cable or satellite.

Digital cable is sent down the line using QAM. QAM can be optionally encrypted on a per channel basis. If a channel is encrypted, you need an STB from your cable company (or a CableCard device, like a TiVo) to decrypt it and view it. This is called an encrypted QAM channel. If a channel is not encrypted, it's called a clear QAM channel.

Digital _over-the-air_ broadcasts (like you would pick up with an antenna) are broadcast in ATSC. Analog OTA the broadcasts are broadcast in NTSC.

Your new HDTV is only going to have a clear QAM / ATSC / NTSC tuner in it unless it specifically mentions a CableCard slot. That means you won't be able to tune in encrypted QAM channels without a set-top-box or a TiVo or similar device - your TV's integrated tuner can't do it.

What gets sent in encrypted QAM? As a general rule, anything that is not a local ATSC OTA channel is going to be encrypted. That means Sci-Fi, Discovery, etc. will all be encrypted, not just HBO or Showtime. Your definition of "premium" is probably not the same as the cable company's.

So, unless you're content with the local NBC/ABC/CBS/Fox affiliates, getting a TV with a pair of non-CableCard "digital tuners" isn't going to help you. You will need two STBs, and a TV that can display two HD inputs at a time in PiP mode. The latter is still very uncommon, from what I gather.

 

[computer]

Originally posted by: erwos
OK, let's try this again. And, from now on, just ask questions and post links - copying and pasting huge swathes of the Cox site makes it hard to read your posts.

I was trying to make it easy so no one would have to go to other webpages and find the text! Plus the text is all formatted and clearly marked in italics.

The February 2009 cut-off is _only_ for over-the-air analog broadcast. It does not affect cable or satellite.

Thanks for all the info. I have learned a lot since then at other forums and from some reading. I realize that now, but there are still some others that are saying it will affect cable.

Your new HDTV is only going to have a clear QAM / ATSC / NTSC tuner in it unless it specifically mentions a CableCard slot. That means you won't be able to tune in encrypted QAM channels without a set-top-box or a TiVo or similar device - your TV's integrated tuner can't do it.

As of right now, "basic channels" are 2-72 here and do not require a box. "Premium" is what's called channels over 72 that are scrambled/encrypted that require the cable box in order to see them. You state: "That means you won't be able to tune in encrypted QAM channels without a set-top-box or a TiVo or similar device - your TV's integrated tuner can't do it", so how can a TiVo view these encrypted channels? You must mean a TiVo with a cable card?

What gets sent in encrypted QAM? As a general rule, anything that is not a local ATSC OTA channel is going to be encrypted. That means Sci-Fi, Discovery, etc. will all be encrypted, not just HBO or Showtime. Your definition of "premium" is probably not the same as the cable company's.

Ah, this is the area where I'm still confused. You are saying above that what is currently considered "basic" and "premium" here, is going to change. You're saying all channels except local are going to be considered sort of "premium" in a manner of speaking; they won't cost more, but you're saying a box is going to be needed to view them.? Now if that is the case, that seems to contradict your statement (and what I've been hearing), "The February 2009 cut-off is _only_ for over-the-air analog broadcast. It does not affect cable or satellite", (which is what I have been lead to believe, Feb. '09 doesn't affect cable), but now you're saying it will affect cable. So I'm still confused regarding that.

So, unless you're content with the local NBC/ABC/CBS/Fox affiliates, getting a TV with a pair of non-CableCard "digital tuners" isn't going to help you. You will need two STBs, and a TV that can display two HD inputs at a time in PiP mode. The latter is still very uncommon, from what I gather.

So that would mean everyone with PiP sets are going to have to pay double to buy/rent another box, and that this DTV transition is going to affect them. (I don't think you need two HD inputs, just two inputs. Also, every manual of a new HDTV with PiP I've read says the second PiP input source can only be analog. I can't find out if that means it will only accept analog, or if it "converts" DTV to analog).

 

[computer]

Originally posted by: PurdueRy
You need to focus your questions/thoughts because right now you're all over the place and its hard to help you when you ask varying questions throughout your thread.

Well, I can't very well start a new thread for each question, and they all apply to the topic.

As for the switch to digital, this only affects over the air broadcasts. Cable companies can continue to send analog signals if they were before across their cables.

And the confusion continues. This is what I thought and what I have heard, yet the post of "Erwos" seems to indicate otherwise. But below you're saying that it will affect cable customers, unless what you said only applies to PiP:

If you had a dual tuner cable box, then you wouldn't have to worry about anything. Just hook each up to a different input and watch both at the same time. With a single cable box you would be pretty much screwed. If you didn't need a cable box then you would need a fancy dual tuner in the TV which your finding out is rare. Ask your cable company if they provide a dual tuner cable box. If each tuner has an array of outputs, you should be able to get that to work.

I think I'm going to get a DVR. The one from Cox is dual HD tuners, but expensive at $17 more a month. I'm trying to find a subscription-free DVR that also has dual HD tuners (because I don't need what little a subscription gives), but no luck yet. The ones by LiteOn are all single NTSC, they are combo DVR HD recording and DVD recording. I asked them about a dual tuner box, but they haven't replied on that yet.

Thanks.