Is there still hope for the US?

[a777pilot]

You collect 3 government checks and dont work. Fuck off.

The wife and I collect five retirement checks. You are right, three of those are from the government.....thank you very much. As too fucking.....I'm just too old for much of that.

 

[a777pilot]

ignorant

Why?

You do know that this is a liberal idea don't ya. Well, it has been officially submitted as legislation by a very liberal member of Congress.

Having a job and making a living (getting an income) are suppose to be a good thing. Having property is a good thing and an American dream. So it makes no sense to tax these very things.

Just because we have always had an income tax during our life time and are use to it, that is no reason to keep it. Think creatively.

 

[Engineer]

Why?

You do know that this is a liberal idea don't ya. Well, it has been officially submitted as legislation by a very liberal member of Congress.

Having a job and making a living (getting an income) are suppose to be a good thing. Having property is a good thing and an American dream. So it makes no sense to tax these very things.

Just because we have always had an income tax during our life time and are use to it, that is no reason to keep it. Think creatively.

Since the poor and middle classes spend a much larger portion of their income than the higher and rich classes, it would be extremely regressive in taking a higher percent of their income for taxes than those at the top. I understand that the top will still outspend the lower classes, but as a % of their income, there will be no comparison, IMO.

 

[JSt0rm]

Why?

You do know that this is a liberal idea don't ya. Well, it has been officially submitted as legislation by a very liberal member of Congress.

Having a job and making a living (getting an income) are suppose to be a good thing. Having property is a good thing and an American dream. So it makes no sense to tax these very things.

Just because we have always had an income tax during our life time and are use to it, that is no reason to keep it. Think creatively.

what you are asking for will slow down consumption. Businesses make purchases before being taxed on income. This increases money velocity. What you propose would jam things up. You have been unemployed since 1988 you shouldn't really be thinking about such things.

 

[Imp]

I'm finding it more difficult to be optimistic but not because of the politicians. Because of the public in general. They elect whatever candidate runs the most commercials. They don't hold officials or each other accountable for their behavior. They think browsing the Google news page means they are well-informed.

If the public really wanted politicians who served the public interest instead of the lobbyists' interests and the interests of the wealthy and well-connected, they would be informed, and candidates who weren't all lawyers and millionaires could get elected.

People wear political ignorance as a badge of honor nowadays. Geniuses in my city elected our version of a Tea Party candidate, and now they complain about things he outlined clearly in his election platform. The funniest part is he's a puppet and makes no attempt at hiding it by letting his puppeteer speak for him 95% of the time.

 

[bfdd]

To be honest, I'm not so sure.

 

[tommo123]

depends. corporate america? yea, as the US falls they can move to other countries. your normal american - no.

tariffs on imports, tax companies for outsourcing and force jobs to come back. if a company doesn't hire americans, what the fuck do you care if it goes bust? both our countries need to look after our own first at this point in time.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

So only recently have I really sat down to read about some of the issues and history going on about the economy, and I'm very concerned.

The last time we had this much debt and carried such a high debt to GDP ratio was WWII, but that was because we were in a full blown, costly war, and we were able to recover and pay down our debt quickly because taxes were high, we were the leading superpower, we were the world's manufacturing base with no competition, and had vast amounts of oil and other resources. Basically, we had a prosperous economy to back us up.

Foward to today:

1. Again, humongous debt, only this time...
2. Taxes at an all time low.
3. Domestic manufacturing is dying and China outcompetes us in this regard.
4. We have SS costs coming up from baby boomers.
5. We import nearly everything and export nearly nothing ie. Our cash is being transferred overseas.
6. We continue to spend more than we take in.
7. The people are unwilling or unable to bear cuts to their social programs.
8. We have leadership that continually tries to increase spending while keeping taxes (revenue) low. And the things they spend on won't necessarily bring in new revenue.
9. Our debt seems like it's starting to get to the point of going out of control... are we already there?
10. Our debt is owned by foreign countries.

Everything seems aligned in our disfavor. Is there any turning back? What's our competitive edge nowadays? All I can think of is Silicon Valley.

10 bullet points that describe the problems our country is facing. You forgot #11 which is another HUGE and expensive policy called Obamacare.


There is turning back... If the people we elect look at our constitution and intuit it by reading the papers written by the people responsible for the creation of it we have a chance. If they continue to make it up as they go along we're fucked. But I'm an optimistic person so I retain hope regardless.

 

[randomrogue]

Didn't we just elect a president based, nearly entirely, on hope? I mean the guy wasn't even qualified to be my boss at work let alone the country but we got all the hope we needed didn't we?

 

[Tom]

things are not that bad.

Biggest flaw is the Bush tax cuts skew things to reward wealth as opposed to rewarding work and innovation.

And this policy is working well. The wealthy are getting much wealthier.

 

[Greenman]

things are not that bad.

Biggest flaw is the Bush tax cuts skew things to reward wealth as opposed to rewarding work and innovation.

And this policy is working well. The wealthy are getting much wealthier.

They aren't the Bush tax cuts anymore, they are now the Obama tax cuts.

 

[Engineer]

They aren't the Bush tax cuts anymore, they are now the Obama tax cuts.

Considering that Obama has extended or expanded (SS Payroll tax cut which he wants to extend even with SS bleeding red as an example) most of the Bush policies, I tend to agree with that. He's almost right of Bush on a lot of this stuff.

 

[Wordplay]

I'm finding it more difficult to be optimistic but not because of the politicians. Because of the public in general. They elect whatever candidate runs the most commercials. They don't hold officials or each other accountable for their behavior. They think browsing the Google news page means they are well-informed.

If the public really wanted politicians who served the public interest instead of the lobbyists' interests and the interests of the wealthy and well-connected, they would be informed, and candidates who weren't all lawyers and millionaires could get elected.

That and we should force them to put a law in place that limits how many terms people can serve.

Didn't we just elect a president based, nearly entirely, on hope? I mean the guy wasn't even qualified to be my boss at work let alone the country but we got all the hope we needed didn't we?

Just like next election when people will vote for republicans based on hope. It's an endless cycle really.

The Republicans did bad vote Democrat. The Democrats did bad vote Republican. Rinse and repeat.

 

[blackangst1]

So only recently have I really sat down to read about some of the issues and history going on about the economy, and I'm very concerned.

The last time we had this much debt and carried such a high debt to GDP ratio was WWII, but that was because we were in a full blown, costly war, and we were able to recover and pay down our debt quickly because taxes were high, we were the leading superpower, we were the world's manufacturing base with no competition, and had vast amounts of oil and other resources. Basically, we had a prosperous economy to back us up.

Foward to today:

1. Again, humongous debt, only this time...
2. Taxes at an all time low.
3. Domestic manufacturing is dying and China outcompetes us in this regard.
4. We have SS costs coming up from baby boomers.
5. We import nearly everything and export nearly nothing ie. Our cash is being transferred overseas.
6. We continue to spend more than we take in.
7. The people are unwilling or unable to bear cuts to their social programs.
8. We have leadership that continually tries to increase spending while keeping taxes (revenue) low. And the things they spend on won't necessarily bring in new revenue.
9. Our debt seems like it's starting to get to the point of going out of control... are we already there?
10. Our debt is owned by foreign countries.

Everything seems aligned in our disfavor. Is there any turning back? What's our competitive edge nowadays? All I can think of is Silicon Valley.

Go ahead and do some travelling and learn about local politics, economy, and general living and get back to us about how bad the US is.

 

[MovingTarget]

Didn't we just elect a president based, nearly entirely, on hope? I mean the guy wasn't even qualified to be my boss at work let alone the country but we got all the hope we needed didn't we?

Unless you are in a specialized field, he's probably more qualified than your boss. In fact, he's likely sharper than anyone on your company's board of directors.

Obama was sorta elected on hope, but really he was elected because the policies of this nation weren't working for the average working person. That, and Sarah Palin. Yet, Obama has continued most of the Bush policies. He has done many things to attempt to right the economic ship, probably moreso than McCain would have. (For the record, I like McCain, and supported him heavily in the 2000 primary. I had an open mind about Palin at first, but lets face it, she shouldn't be anywhere near the White House.)

So how's that hopey changey thing working out for us? Not very good, but better than that shitty sandwichey thing we would've gotten without Obama in office.

 

[Jaskalas]

Is there still hope for the US?

Hopefully, of course there is. We still have time if we choose to change our minds and chart a new course.

Realistically, we have no intention of changing our minds. Our course is full steam ahead straight into the iceberg.

The greatest modern failure our country faced was in 2000 when conservatives won power by abandoning their principles and their values. The GOP ran for electability and ditched the ideals we founded ourselves on. Of small government.

Today there is a vocal minority attempting to restore our ideals, but they have two incumbent parties that are going to crush them. Democrats who champion big government will bankrupt us as soon as humanly possible. Progress us straight into that iceberg. Republicans, afraid of their own shadow, will fear the Dem's handouts and offer to do the same in moderation. They'll slam us into the iceberg at half speed on a good day, but they'll get drunk with power like GWB and plow us full steam ahead.

Both parties are united with the same goal, electability at the dole of the public treasury. They argue about how to spend it, but empty it they shall. Moderates cry out for a compromise, for statesmanship. As if half speed towards our demise is their public duty. They call their position reasonable, based on civility against the extreme idea of changing course. Their idea of moderation is killing us. We need radicals. We need the founding principles of this nation.

Only by defeating the incumbent parties can we turn the ship around and sail back home safely. Back towards our founding fathers who believed the people knew best. Who did everything they could to found us with a LIMITED government of ENUMERATED powers that had a bill of rights to protect us from them.

Never before has our nation been so corrupted by its own power, from its own government. The best we can do ATM is split the vote on the GOP and destroy it from within. Maybe after bringing the fake conservatives to their knees can we restore the rightful opposition to the Democrats and fight once more against their utopist big government.

The only hope for the United States, is that it does not go bankrupt. To do that will require opposition to government growth. The only ones even attempting to champion that are the Tea Party. Against the brash insanity of Spend Spend Spend! We must stand with people who are going to cut to the bone. We need a weed wacker to trim the Bushes.

 

[a777pilot]

Since the poor and middle classes spend a much larger portion of their income than the higher and rich classes, it would be extremely regressive in taking a higher percent of their income for taxes than those at the top. I understand that the top will still outspend the lower classes, but as a % of their income, there will be no comparison, IMO.

What do you think the rich do with that money they steal from the poor? Put it in a hole in the ground in their back yard? No, they buy things. All those things would be taxed in my system. Buy five homes....pay a tax on those purchases. Buy 100,000 shares of Apple Inc......pay a tax on that purchase. Buy 37 fancy cars to keep in a barn......pay a tax on that purchase. Give a ton of money to a political party....pay a tax on it.

Think this through. It's a fair system.

Oh, yes, if they, the rich, just leave the money in the bank in a saving account, if makes interest, which is not taxed but all that money in saving is available for the bank/savings institution to lend out to others.

 

[a777pilot]

Unless you are in a specialized field, he's probably more qualified than your boss. In fact, he's likely sharper than anyone on your company's board of directors.

Obama was sorta elected on hope, but really he was elected because the policies of this nation weren't working for the average working person. That, and Sarah Palin. Yet, Obama has continued most of the Bush policies. He has done many things to attempt to right the economic ship, probably moreso than McCain would have. (For the record, I like McCain, and supported him heavily in the 2000 primary. I had an open mind about Palin at first, but lets face it, she shouldn't be anywhere near the White House.)

So how's that hopey changey thing working out for us? Not very good, but better than that shitty sandwichey thing we would've gotten without Obama in office.

He was elected because he said he was black.

 

[a777pilot]

That and we should force them to put a law in place that limits how many terms people can serve.


Just like next election when people will vote for republicans based on hope. It's an endless cycle really.

The Republicans did bad vote Democrat. The Democrats did bad vote Republican. Rinse and repeat.

No, no, NO! .....to term limits. In fact we ought repeal the 22d Amendment.

 

[a777pilot]

what you are asking for will slow down consumption. Businesses make purchases before being taxed on income. This increases money velocity. What you propose would jam things up. You have been unemployed since 1988 you shouldn't really be thinking about such things.

No. I retired from the US Marine Corps in 1988. Then I was a commercial pilot till turning 60 years old.

My plan would NOT slow down consumption one bit. It would increase business activity. All the profits from businesses would not be taxed. They would do what they could to improve profits. That's a good thing. There would be a worker shortage because of all the jobs this would create.

 

[a777pilot]

Hopefully, of course there is. We still have time if we choose to change our minds and chart a new course.

Realistically, we have no intention of changing our minds. Our course is full steam ahead straight into the iceberg.

The greatest modern failure our country faced was in 2000 when conservatives won power by abandoning their principles and their values. The GOP ran for electability and ditched the ideals we founded ourselves on. Of small government.

Today there is a vocal minority attempting to restore our ideals, but they have two incumbent parties that are going to crush them. Democrats who champion big government will bankrupt us as soon as humanly possible. Progress us straight into that iceberg. Republicans, afraid of their own shadow, will fear the Dem's handouts and offer to do the same in moderation. They'll slam us into the iceberg at half speed on a good day, but they'll get drunk with power like GWB and plow us full steam ahead.

Both parties are united with the same goal, electability at the dole of the public treasury. They argue about how to spend it, but empty it they shall. Moderates cry out for a compromise, for statesmanship. As if half speed towards our demise is their public duty. They call their position reasonable, based on civility against the extreme idea of changing course. Their idea of moderation is killing us. We need radicals. We need the founding principles of this nation.

Only by defeating the incumbent parties can we turn the ship around and sail back home safely. Back towards our founding fathers who believed the people knew best. Who did everything they could to found us with a LIMITED government of ENUMERATED powers that had a bill of rights to protect us from them.

Never before has our nation been so corrupted by its own power, from its own government. The best we can do ATM is split the vote on the GOP and destroy it from within. Maybe after bringing the fake conservatives to their knees can we restore the rightful opposition to the Democrats and fight once more against their utopist big government.

The only hope for the United States, is that it does not go bankrupt. To do that will require opposition to government growth. The only ones even attempting to champion that are the Tea Party. Against the brash insanity of Spend Spend Spend! We must stand with people who are going to cut to the bone. We need a weed wacker to trim the Bushes.

The only hope for the United States, is that it does not go bankrupt. To do that will require opposition to government growth. The only ones even attempting to champion that are the Tea Party. Against the brash insanity of Spend Spend Spend! We must stand with people who are going to cut to the bone.

I agree.

The spending has got to stop.

 

[MovingTarget]

What do you think the rich do with that money they steal from the poor? Put it in a hole in the ground in their back yard? No, they buy things. All those things would be taxed in my system. Buy five homes....pay a tax on those purchases. Buy 100,000 shares of Apple Inc......pay a tax on that purchase. Buy 37 fancy cars to keep in a barn......pay a tax on that purchase. Give a ton of money to a political party....pay a tax on it.

Think this through. It's a fair system.

Oh, yes, if they, the rich, just leave the money in the bank in a saving account, if makes interest, which is not taxed but all that money in saving is available for the bank/savings institution to lend out to others.

That all sounds nice in theory until you consider where we are right now. It creates a de-facto nobility that perpetuate their wealth via investment and charging economic rents....not actual productivity. The rich do invest or save instead of putting their money in a mattress, which does increase economic activity somewhat. However, letting the lower classes pay less in taxes percentage-wise increases economic activity even moreso as they spend that money directly. The economic multiplier is much larger. It doesn't matter how much the rich invest if nobody in the lower classes is making enough to generate demand. A progressive tax code is not only much more fair, but it makes more economic sense.

 

[MovingTarget]

He was elected because he said he was black.

At least you are honest in your opinion. I disagree with it. The Democrats could've nominated a cockatoo (those are white, you know), and McCain/Palin would've lost. 8 years of Bush was more than enough to put a bad taste in the people's mouth with respect to any GOP candidate for POTUS.

 

[Engineer]

What do you think the rich do with that money they steal from the poor? Put it in a hole in the ground in their back yard? No, they buy things. All those things would be taxed in my system. Buy five homes....pay a tax on those purchases. Buy 100,000 shares of Apple Inc......pay a tax on that purchase. Buy 37 fancy cars to keep in a barn......pay a tax on that purchase. Give a ton of money to a political party....pay a tax on it.

Think this through. It's a fair system.

Oh, yes, if they, the rich, just leave the money in the bank in a saving account, if makes interest, which is not taxed but all that money in saving is available for the bank/savings institution to lend out to others.

You will never, ever, never, ever get the bolded part through any Congress, lol! :biggrin:

 

[BudAshes]

Maybe it's time to split us up. Ie, we'll take the west coast you and guys can have the rest.