Is there an end at hand the Israel-Gaza battle?

[ProfJohn]

How quickly people forget about the 4 threads that were started to keep this under control. Until this drama plays ouit, that is where the stories should reside.

There will now be a two day vacation for people that have short memories.

Senior Anandtech Moderator
Common Courtesy


Saw this in a story from yahoo.

1. Apparently Israel and Hamas have started indirect talks aimed at ending their little conflict.

2. Israel wants an outside force to patrol the Gaza-Egypt boarder in order to shut down the smuggling tunnels. Seems that the Egyptians are not capable or willing to shut them down themselves. There seems to be a lot of problems with this solution, Egypt doesn't seen keen to the idea so far, but it would seem to be a good long term solution.

If you cut off the tunnels into Gaza then the flow of weapons to Hamas will end and the endless missile attacks on Israel will end as well. Once this happens Israel will be pressured to open up a little bit and allow more fuel and aid to Gaza as well.

In the long run the people of Gaza and Israel win, while Hamas losses, not a bad thing in my book.

Finally, I think we need to realize that as long as Israel is under bombardment the US is not going to force them to play nice. But once the constant attacks end Israel will have no more excuses and will have to take steps to improve the lives of Gaza residents and the key to long term peace probably comes from that.

 

[brownzilla786]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Saw this in a story from yahoo.

1. Apparently Israel and Hamas have started indirect talks aimed at ending their little conflict.

2. Israel wants an outside force to patrol the Gaza-Egypt boarder in order to shut down the smuggling tunnels. Seems that the Egyptians are not capable or willing to shut them down themselves. There seems to be a lot of problems with this solution, Egypt doesn't seen keen to the idea so far, but it would seem to be a good long term solution.

If you cut off the tunnels into Gaza then the flow of weapons to Hamas will end and the endless missile attacks on Israel will end as well. Once this happens Israel will be pressured to open up a little bit and allow more fuel and aid to Gaza as well.

In the long run the people of Gaza and Israel win, while Hamas losses, not a bad thing in my book.

Finally, I think we need to realize that as long as Israel is under bombardment the US is not going to force them to play nice. But once the constant attacks end Israel will have no more excuses and will have to take steps to improve the lives of Gaza residents and the key to long term peace probably comes from that.

The Palestinian death toll since Israel's offensive began on December 27 stands at 890, many of them civilians, Gaza medical officials said. About 3,600 Palestinians have been wounded.

Thirteen Israelis -- three civilians hit by rocket fire and 10 soldiers -- have been killed, Israel says.

3 civilians killed. They sure are under bombardment over there.

In the long run Israel loses its reputation as the good guys and the families of the dead Palestinians will want revenge. I doubt there will ever be significant change but that is something everyone would pray for.

 

[smack Down]

So somehow in your mind, Israel giving up nothing and a 3rd party volunteering to enforce Israel occupation is somehow both a reasonable and fair end? How long before Hamas decides to attack the 3rd party or Israel because they still don't have basic necessities?

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: brownzilla786

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Saw this in a story from yahoo.

1. Apparently Israel and Hamas have started indirect talks aimed at ending their little conflict.

2. Israel wants an outside force to patrol the Gaza-Egypt boarder in order to shut down the smuggling tunnels. Seems that the Egyptians are not capable or willing to shut them down themselves. There seems to be a lot of problems with this solution, Egypt doesn't seen keen to the idea so far, but it would seem to be a good long term solution.

If you cut off the tunnels into Gaza then the flow of weapons to Hamas will end and the endless missile attacks on Israel will end as well. Once this happens Israel will be pressured to open up a little bit and allow more fuel and aid to Gaza as well.

In the long run the people of Gaza and Israel win, while Hamas losses, not a bad thing in my book.

Finally, I think we need to realize that as long as Israel is under bombardment the US is not going to force them to play nice. But once the constant attacks end Israel will have no more excuses and will have to take steps to improve the lives of Gaza residents and the key to long term peace probably comes from that.

The Palestinian death toll since Israel's offensive began on December 27 stands at 890, many of them civilians, Gaza medical officials said. About 3,600 Palestinians have been wounded.

Thirteen Israelis -- three civilians hit by rocket fire and 10 soldiers -- have been killed, Israel says.

3 civilians killed. They sure are under bombardment over there.

In the long run Israel loses its reputation as the good guys and the families of the dead Palestinians will want revenge. I doubt there will ever be significant change but that is something everyone would pray for.

So before this, while Hamas had been lobbing rockets into Israel, what should they have done? The only way to prevent Hamas from attacking is to utterly smash their will to fight. Anything else, and Hamas would just rearm and do it again, and again, and again...

 

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: brownzilla786

The Palestinian death toll since Israel's offensive began on December 27 stands at 890, many of them civilians, Gaza medical officials said. About 3,600 Palestinians have been wounded.

Thirteen Israelis -- three civilians hit by rocket fire and 10 soldiers -- have been killed, Israel says.



In the long run Israel loses its reputation as the good guys and the families of the dead Palestinians will want revenge. I doubt there will ever be significant change but that is something everyone would pray for.

Oh well. The Palestinians played with fire, and they got burned.

 

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: Kadarin

So before this, while Hamas had been lobbing rockets into Israel, what should they have done? The only way to prevent Hamas from attacking is to utterly smash their will to fight. Anything else, and Hamas would just rearm and do it again, and again, and again...

You speak the truth.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Kadarin
The only way to prevent Hamas from attacking is to utterly smash their will to fight

That is not the only way. There is always the option of acknolaging Palestine's right to exist. Granted, our leaders and media never consider about that other option, as they all firmly on the "death to Palestine" side.

Like Jon Stewart said the other day on The Daily Show; "it's the moebius strip of issues, it only has one side!"

 

[Borealis7]

The solution ProfJohn is speaking of will not work. because Hamas has stated they will treat any 3rd party force as occupiers and fight them. the key to ending this stage of the war lies in Guaratees and Sanctions.

1) what guaratees can Israel get that Hamas stops firing rockets and respects a cease-fire?
2) what guaratees can Hamas get that Israel lets the convoy of supplies to pass through the checkpoints?

the answer to both questions is: none. and why is that? because Israel has suffered constant missle attacks for 8 years and will not sit idle anymore. any future rocket attacks will be followed by military action. also Hamas will not subject to any authority or to any agreement (remember it is defined as a terrorist organization even by the UN).

so if there are no guaratees then what will be the sanctions when either side breaks the truce?

what if Israel kills Hamas militants from the air after the ceasefire?
what if Hamas keeps firing rockets even after every last IDF soldier leaves gaza and the crossings open?

during the past 6 months a ceasefire was in effect. israel opened the border crossings and hamas kept firing rockets and mortar shells onto israeli settlments.
in response, Israel closed the borders for one day each time a missle was fired.
obviously this "punishment" isnt enough for Hamas and we see that they are not trustworthy.

all these things must be considered when negotiating a truce. but there are other factors here: the IDF's image has suffered a great blow in the 2006 lebanon war, and now its hell bent on rebuilding its image as the strongest army in the region. Hamas really chose a bad timing for waiving the red cape in front of the bull.

Moreover, i have not seen a single mention of the kidnapped israeli soldier Gilad Schalit in all the threads here. he's been in captivity for more than 900 days now (since the 2006 lebanon war) and his liberation is one of the specific goals of this operation.

what israel wants: stop the rocket attacks, free Gilad Schalit, stop the rearming of Hamas.
what Hamas wants: open the border crossings, no foreign forces, destruction of Israel.

i've sat and read so many uninformed comments in this forum for too long. forget the history, this is the situation now. so i want to see all of you armchair geo-political analysts either come up with a solution or up the shut fuck.

stop quoting half-sentences which serve your aggenda. no matter which side you are on, the solution to the problem should fit both sides.

The civilians in Gaza are held captive by an oppressing force. that force is not the IDF, but rather Hamas. Hamas has doomed them to a life of poverty and threat of death. Hamas was voted democratically as was mentioned many times before, but that was only because the alternative wasnt any better. the people were fed up with the Fatah movement's corruption. Hamas is exploiting the people of Gaza and sacrifices them in the name of their jihad against israel.

Israel cannot stop now, Hamas will not stop now. and the world will not acknowledge any Hamas goverened palestinian state.

this is the truth, straight from the source. now go think about it and dont come back until you have a solution.

and no. "kill all palestinians/israelies" is not a solution.

i might as well just say it if you havent figured it out already: I'm Israeli. i live in israel within the range of the Hamas rockets. i am against the killing of innocent people in gaza but above all i support my country's right to defend itself.

 

[NoShangriLa]

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: brownzilla786

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Saw this in a story from yahoo.

1. Apparently Israel and Hamas have started indirect talks aimed at ending their little conflict.

2. Israel wants an outside force to patrol the Gaza-Egypt boarder in order to shut down the smuggling tunnels. Seems that the Egyptians are not capable or willing to shut them down themselves. There seems to be a lot of problems with this solution, Egypt doesn't seen keen to the idea so far, but it would seem to be a good long term solution.

If you cut off the tunnels into Gaza then the flow of weapons to Hamas will end and the endless missile attacks on Israel will end as well. Once this happens Israel will be pressured to open up a little bit and allow more fuel and aid to Gaza as well.

In the long run the people of Gaza and Israel win, while Hamas losses, not a bad thing in my book.

Finally, I think we need to realize that as long as Israel is under bombardment the US is not going to force them to play nice. But once the constant attacks end Israel will have no more excuses and will have to take steps to improve the lives of Gaza residents and the key to long term peace probably comes from that.

The Palestinian death toll since Israel's offensive began on December 27 stands at 890, many of them civilians, Gaza medical officials said. About 3,600 Palestinians have been wounded.

Thirteen Israelis -- three civilians hit by rocket fire and 10 soldiers -- have been killed, Israel says.

3 civilians killed. They sure are under bombardment over there.

In the long run Israel loses its reputation as the good guys and the families of the dead Palestinians will want revenge. I doubt there will ever be significant change but that is something everyone would pray for.

So before this, while Hamas had been lobbing rockets into Israel, what should they have done? The only way to prevent Hamas from attacking is to utterly smash their will to fight. Anything else, and Hamas would just rearm and do it again, and again, and again...

Chicken or egg came first?

The border crossing, cutting off supports, and starving the population is Jewish way of expressing love.

 

[NoShangriLa]

Originally posted by: theflyingpig

Originally posted by: Kadarin

So before this, while Hamas had been lobbing rockets into Israel, what should they have done? The only way to prevent Hamas from attacking is to utterly smash their will to fight. Anything else, and Hamas would just rearm and do it again, and again, and again...

You speak the truth.

Just like the way the British smashed American will to fight at Bunker Hill, Fort Washington, Brandywine Creek, Germantown, Monmouth, and Guilford Courthouse, then American would still be Brit colonist and you can have your fish & chips instead steak & burgers.

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: Borealis7
The solution ProfJohn is speaking of will not work. because Hamas has stated they will treat any 3rd party force as occupiers and fight them. the key to ending this stage of the war lies in Guaratees and Sanctions.

1) what guaratees can Israel get that Hamas stops firing rockets and respects a cease-fire?
2) what guaratees can Hamas get that Israel lets the convoy of supplies to pass through the checkpoints?

the answer to both questions is: none. and why is that? because Israel has suffered constant missle attacks for 8 years and will not sit idle anymore. any future rocket attacks will be followed by military action. also Hamas will not subject to any authority or to any agreement (remember it is defined as a terrorist organization even by the UN).

so if there are no guaratees then what will be the sanctions when either side breaks the truce?

what if Israel kills Hamas militants from the air after the ceasefire?
what if Hamas keeps firing rockets even after every last IDF soldier leaves gaza and the crossings open?

during the past 6 months a ceasefire was in effect. israel opened the border crossings and hamas kept firing rockets and mortar shells onto israeli settlments.
in response, Israel closed the borders for one day each time a missle was fired.
obviously this "punishment" isnt enough for Hamas and we see that they are not trustworthy.

all these things must be considered when negotiating a truce. but there are other factors here: the IDF's image has suffered a great blow in the 2006 lebanon war, and now its hell bent on rebuilding its image as the strongest army in the region. Hamas really chose a bad timing for waiving the red cape in front of the bull.

Moreover, i have not seen a single mention of the kidnapped israeli soldier Gilad Schalit in all the threads here. he's been in captivity for more than 900 days now (since the 2006 lebanon war) and his liberation is one of the specific goals of this operation.

what israel wants: stop the rocket attacks, free Gilad Schalit, stop the rearming of Hamas.
what Hamas wants: open the border crossings, no foreign forces, destruction of Israel.

i've sat and read so many uninformed comments in this forum for too long. forget the history, this is the situation now. so i want to see all of you armchair geo-political analysts either come up with a solution or up the shut fuck.

stop quoting half-sentences which serve your aggenda. no matter which side you are on, the solution to the problem should fit both sides.

The civilians in Gaza are held captive by an oppressing force. that force is not the IDF, but rather Hamas. Hamas has doomed them to a life of poverty and threat of death. Hamas was voted democratically as was mentioned many times before, but that was only because the alternative wasnt any better. the people were fed up with the Fatah movement's corruption. Hamas is exploiting the people of Gaza and sacrifices them in the name of their jihad against israel.

Israel cannot stop now, Hamas will not stop now. and the world will not acknowledge any Hamas goverened palestinian state.

this is the truth, straight from the source. now go think about it and dont come back until you have a solution.

and no. "kill all palestinians/israelies" is not a solution.

i might as well just say it if you havent figured it out already: I'm Israeli. i live in israel within the range of the Hamas rockets. i am against the killing of innocent people in gaza but above all i support my country's right to defend itself.

:thumbsup: Do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to?

 

[NoShangriLa]

during the past 6 months a ceasefire was in effect. israel opened the border crossings and hamas kept firing rockets and mortar shells onto israeli settlments.

Weren't there are claims that the Israelis broke the crease fire first during the six month?

It still come down to the chicken/egg scenario.

There could be a chance if Israelis return all land that the stole and recognize the Palestinian as equal in stead of untermenschen.

 

[Borealis7]

Originally posted by: NoShangriLa

during the past 6 months a ceasefire was in effect. israel opened the border crossings and hamas kept firing rockets and mortar shells onto israeli settlments.

Weren't there are claims that the Israelis broke the crease fire first during the six month?

It still come down to the chicken/egg scenario.

There could be a chance if Israelis return all land that the stole and recognize the Palestinian as equal in stead of untermenschen.

still no guaratees for israel's security. most likely Hamas will use these territories to launch more rockets at israel and send suicide bombers as they have done upto now.
what should israel do if it does pull out of these territories and the attacks continue?

Guaratees and Sanctions. niether of which exist in your solution, henceforth: not a solution.

the palestinian people have been recognized by israel in the Oslo agreements. Hamas is the one who refuses to acknowldge israels existance just like the Iranian leadership which funds it.

 

[Zebo]

It will never end. After 1967 the Arabs realized they had to redefine the conflict for Western consumption, because of the various defeats of their forces, they realized they could not eradicate Israel by military means, but by a slow and relentless siege and thus "Palestinian people" were born. They are nothing more than shock troops financed, trained and armed by Israels old foes to implement that siege. Redefined not as a conflict between the 22 Arab nations, with all their land, wealth and influence, against little nascent Israel and it's almost eradicated Jews - but as one against big powerful Israel against the poor "Palestinian people". The west bought it hook line and sinker and the war never changed despite our underdog worship and switching sides. Eradication of Israel is the goal and Arabs will never stop. The West continually fools themselves ignoring the money and arms trail from Israels old foes, the propaganda of Jew-hate streaming out of every radio and television show, especially for children in every Muslim country. The placing of posters everywhere of suicide bombers to hold up as examples for admiration and emulation, or the public proclamations of these states leaders to wipe Israel off the map - and claims PEACE can really happen it's just a matter of Israeli concessions and stop defending herself. :roll

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: brownzilla786

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Saw this in a story from yahoo.

1. Apparently Israel and Hamas have started indirect talks aimed at ending their little conflict.

2. Israel wants an outside force to patrol the Gaza-Egypt boarder in order to shut down the smuggling tunnels. Seems that the Egyptians are not capable or willing to shut them down themselves. There seems to be a lot of problems with this solution, Egypt doesn't seen keen to the idea so far, but it would seem to be a good long term solution.

If you cut off the tunnels into Gaza then the flow of weapons to Hamas will end and the endless missile attacks on Israel will end as well. Once this happens Israel will be pressured to open up a little bit and allow more fuel and aid to Gaza as well.

In the long run the people of Gaza and Israel win, while Hamas losses, not a bad thing in my book.

Finally, I think we need to realize that as long as Israel is under bombardment the US is not going to force them to play nice. But once the constant attacks end Israel will have no more excuses and will have to take steps to improve the lives of Gaza residents and the key to long term peace probably comes from that.

The Palestinian death toll since Israel's offensive began on December 27 stands at 890, many of them civilians, Gaza medical officials said. About 3,600 Palestinians have been wounded.

Thirteen Israelis -- three civilians hit by rocket fire and 10 soldiers -- have been killed, Israel says.

3 civilians killed. They sure are under bombardment over there.

In the long run Israel loses its reputation as the good guys and the families of the dead Palestinians will want revenge. I doubt there will ever be significant change but that is something everyone would pray for.

Every home in Israel within rocket range has to have a readily accessible shelter for people to be able to run too.

10000 rockets since 2002. Just because the people of Israel are not stupid does not mean the threat is not there.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: NoShangriLa


The border crossing, cutting off supports, and starving the population is Jewish way of expressing love.

Israel has every right to blockade Gaza just like Syria has blocked trade with Israel since 1967. No nation is forced to trade with one another. In fact most Arab nations have a blockade against Israel. Where is the protests of this overt rasicm? Does Israeli have to right to fire rockets into Saudi or Syria at schools and Mosques now? Somehow I think you're answer would be quite hypocritical.

Israel would be stupid to open borders as a reward for missiles being fired at them since it encourages violence every time Hamas has a beef with Israel.