Is there a better IGP than the nForce2?

[bupkus]

I need some mainboards with Integrated Graphics for kids' educational games/software.
We've been using some boards with the original nForce and it's IGP and it's been ok, but I need some more. I like the read and price of the Biostar M7NCG 400 but if better is out there in the same price range or less, I'd be interested.

I should add that I'm using some AMD XP processors, so Intel is not a consideration.

 

[ChicagoPCGuy]

If you are referring to Socket 462 chipset mobos, then NO, there is no better IGP than the nForce2. Period. To take full advantage of the solution, you really need to run 2 DIMMS in the dual channel configuration, though. Don't use just one DIMM, you will regret it. Mobo selection will be a bit of a pain--I would recommend you look at one that also has the SATA southbridge, and this limits you to two or three boards. EPox, I think, has one. So does MSI. That said, I would be wary of the MSI as the last two of them I bought had bad on-board ethernet (the exact same IGP mobo that you would buy if you bought the MSI--so just be prepared to RMA, no joking).

 

[bupkus]

Originally posted by: ChicagoPCGuy
If you are referring to Socket 462 chipset mobos, then NO, there is no better IGP than the nForce2. Period. To take full advantage of the solution, you really need to run 2 DIMMS in the dual channel configuration, though. Don't use one, you will regret it.

I had no intentions of using 2 dimms. I only have single 256MB modules that I will use although I may have two 128MB modules for one of these boards.
Lets say I only use one dimm. Would it run slower than any other IGP solution?

Don't forget, these PCs will be used by kids running one simple game at a time, so no multi-tasking.

 

[ChicagoPCGuy]

Hi bupkus--it will still be a somewhat faster than the other IGP solutions with just one DIMM, but I must really stress you should really use two DIMMS. The chipset runs better with two DIMMS--stability seems to be better when using the on-board video running this way. I also edited my earlier post to add some more on mobo selection.

 

[bupkus]

I guess I should start shopping for *cheap after rebate* 128MB DDR.

Uhh.. would you think a cheap PCchips mobo with a rebated video card be an good option? I think Fry's runs some $40 combo specials with a PcChips mobo and a 1.6GHz Duron occasionally.

 

[ChicagoPCGuy]

Don't even think about PC Chips. Yikes. Those board are the lowest of the low quality wise. When a mobo manufacturer starts with a good board design, and start subtracting off capacitors to get to the point where they are manufacturing them for as little money as possible and putting YOU right on the edge of having a unstable board, you get PC Chips. Don't do it--oh sure, you can think about it, but just don't do it (as quoted from Jackie Gleason in Smokey And The Bandit).

 

[11427]

I dunno,... I have been running an MSI K7N2G with a single stick of Samsung PC2700 and AMD 2100+. It's been able to handle everything I've thrown at it except Halo. FWIW

 

[Odeen]

On a regular motherboard / video card combo you have two processors and two memories - your CPU and RAM handle general computing, and your video card's processor and onboard RAM handle video duties.

Most IGP solutions split the pathway to the main system RAM between the CPU and the video processor in the chipset. Result - performance loss. The nForce2 IGP, however, has two pathways to the RAM. Since the CPU needs just one, the other pathway can be utilized for video, so performance is pretty amazing for an IGP.

With a single DIMM, you lose that free speed boost.

 

[bupkus]

Nice explanation,
Thanks, Odeen.
I'll try to make sure I can get a pair of dimms.

 

[hans007]

nforce2 igp is prety good, but if you can get an ati9100 igp, that might be better.


if you are just talking about integrated graphics.

 

[gwag]

basically if you use 2 dimms you get a 128bit Geforce4mx, 1 dimm and its 64bit. they do not have two match in size on most boards but even a 128 and a 256 will get you 128bit mtmory path on the IGP.

 

[bupkus]

Originally posted by: gwag
basically if you use 2 dimms you get a 128bit Geforce4mx, 1 dimm and its 64bit. they do not have two match in size on most boards but even a 128 and a 256 will get you 128bit mtmory path on the IGP.

I was operating on the assumption that to run an nForce 2 board in dual channel mode one needed two memory modules of very similar uhmm... architecture and capacities. Is what we're discussing the same thing as dual memory controllers?

When I was concerned with my main box, which is an epox with nForce 2 chipset and an AGP video card, I was trying to use the dual memory controller to maximize performance. I've had the impression lately that dual controller performance was not so significant as once touted.

However, here I'm discussing an IGP so perhaps the rules and issues have changed. :shocked:

 

[Odeen]

Originally posted by: bupkus

When I was concerned with my main box, which is an epox with nForce 2 chipset and an AGP video card, I was trying to use the dual memory controller to maximize performance. I've had the impression lately that dual controller performance was not so significant as once touted.

However, here I'm discussing an IGP so perhaps the rules and issues have changed. :shocked:

There are a few bandwidths to concern yourself with:
The bandwidth between a P4 CPU and the chipset is twice the bandwidth of a single DIMM channel running the same frequency. So, dual-channel DDR P4 motherboards realize performance benefits, as the CPU is not memory bandwidth-starved anymore.

The bandwidth between an Athlon XP CPU and the chipset = the bandwidth of a single DIMM channel running at the same frequency. So only some caching done by the CPU can utilize the additional memory bandwidth, and there isn't a huge benefit to it.

But when you're running IGP, there are TWO simultaneous demands on the memory- the CPU operations and the graphics operations. So, dual-channel memory architecture has the bandwidth to keep both the CPU and the graphics core happy.

Think about it this way:
The P4 is the equivalent of two cars on the road. Having a two-lane highway is a benefit, and the integrated graphics is the third car, which will cause a traffic jam.

The Athlon XP is a single car - So it doesn't get much benefit from a two-lane highway.
Athlon XP plus integrated graphics is two cars. On a single lane highway, you get traffic jams. On a two lane highway, it's smoother.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: bupkus
We've been using some boards with the original nForce and it's IGP and it's been ok, but I need some more. I like the read and price of the Biostar M7NCG 400 but if better is out there in the same price range or less, I'd be interested.

For that price range (around $65 for the Biostar?) you can just get an AGP video card for the existing setup and end up with better performance all around.

When I was concerned with my main box, which is an epox with nForce 2 chipset and an AGP video card, I was trying to use the dual memory controller to maximize performance. I've had the impression lately that dual controller performance was not so significant as once touted.

However, here I'm discussing an IGP so perhaps the rules and issues have changed.

IGP uses your system RAM, so the more bandwidth (dual channel) the better. Even without IGP, some architectures benefit more from dual channel (P4) while others benefit from lower latencies (A64).

 

[bupkus]

Odeen, thanks. Although the automobile simile was unnecessary, the explanation was quite good.
Zap, your added comment about the A64 answers a question I didn't entirely understand either.
Thanks to both of you.

Perhaps, "for that price range" the best choice would be a video card, but the mainboards have gone bad and require replacement. I'm not aware of any brand mainboard that will sell cheap enough to allow me to get a card and mobo for anywhere near $65. So it seems the die is cast.

 

[crazyeddie]

Actually, MWave has an ECS KT600-A VIA KT600 motherboard and a Radeon 7000 32Mb AGP card for $68.40 plus shipping for the both (41.50 + 26.90), so you may not be quite so far off. They also have a bunch of KM266 and KM266A motherboards with integrated S3 graphics down in the $40 price range.

I honestly couldn't say if a Radeon 7000 is going to be significantly faster than NForce integrated video or not, but you can get a motherboard and AGP card in your $65 price range.MWave Online Store

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: bupkus
Perhaps, "for that price range" the best choice would be a video card, but the mainboards have gone bad and require replacement.

OIC

 

[bupkus]

eddie, I'm looking but I'm not used to mwave's website.

Zap, wth does OIC mean?

 

[ribbon13]

oh i see?

el cheapin out i see. and it failed.
Seriously.. $30 video cards would be better than IGPs...

 

[bupkus]

OICN

Wish I had a link to those mobo/video combos eddie spoke of. I only found mobo/cpu combos.

 

[bupkus]

I snagged a Maddog Champion MX400 AGP for $10 after MIR. I wish I had some more, but I can't imagine the onboard being any slower than this.

 

[crazyeddie]

Sorry if I confused you before. The motherboard and video card aren't "bundled" at Mwave. You simply go to "motherboards" and add one to your shopping cart. Then you go to "video cards" and add one to your shopping cart.

There wasn't anything special about either price, I was simply pointing out you could buy both for about $68.