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Is there a "best" server brand?

4

440sixpack

Senior member
My business has reached the point that many do - our peer-to-peer network with a handfull of machines and a handfull of users needs to move to the client-server model. As the "computer guy" of the company the IT tasks are pretty much mine.

Although I am an experienced PC user, network stuff has been limited to this network here and my own little home network, so I am venturing into somewhat uncharted waters. Expect an ongoing series of questions here in this forum on these issues as my company moves through this process. 😉 It may not be easy but I am willing to learn.

As for the actual hardware, is there a "best" brand amoung the biggies? I have been looking at IBM (partial to them as I love our Thinkpads, but certainly not married to them), Dell (somewhat leery of them based on the rep of their consumer stuff, but maybe the business lines are better?) and HP (no real feel for them but I did find some nice configs on their website). Budget for the server itself is around $1000 (not including the OS, for which I plan to buy SBS 2003 Standard, or monitor). I may push that number up a bit, say another $500, if I can really be sold on why I should. 😛

Duties of the box will probably be all the things SBS does - mail, web (although I may leave that off-site for awhile), intranet, file storage, etc., plus host some Filemaker databases our clients access.

For the three brands in question, so far I've been looking at:
HP ML110 G3, ML 310 G3
IBM x100, x206, x226
Dell Poweredge 830, Poweredge 1800
and they all seen comparable, feature wise.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. If I need to provide any more info I can do that too.

Thanks in advance,

Steve
 
440sixpack, I'd strongly urge you to get a rack-mount server, because someday in the future, with any luck, you'll grow and need it.

Dell servers are fine, not great or bad. Their "award winning technical support" is pretty bad, and they have an extremely creative definition of the next business day (server won't power on, NBD warranty = we'll have someone out in a week). But the boxes pretty much just work, only real problem I've had is the occasional hard disk die, and that will happen with enough servers from anyone. BTW, the DRAC cards are useless.

I've been looking at IBM servers recently - some of their Opteron servers look very nice.
 
The IBM servers have a good reputation with people I know. The HP's do too, though. At my previous job, we used Dell servers. The servers were good, but the support sucked.
 
Originally posted by: Boscoh
The IBM servers have a good reputation with people I know. The HP's do too, though. At my previous job, we used Dell servers. The servers were good, but the support sucked.
Click to expand...

Can't comment on the HP's but I agree with your IBM statement. I've had pretty good luck with Dell's too though.
In terms of tech support, IBM seems to do a much better job than Dell in this arena. I believe IBM server support is still stateside for one but can't confirm that. Dell tier one tech support can be seriously frustrating while they run through "ques of questions" or whatever. If you can survive that then their support is usually pretty good.
 
My vote is for Dell servers (Poweredge 2800 is what I operate on). Just make sure you do purchase the gold, business class warranty and make sure it's about 3 years. It is a few hundred $$'s but it gives you access to a higher tier of tech support. My experience with Dell's have been pretty good. Haven't had anything die yet but I also operate on prepare for worst case scenarios and have proper backups as well as spare hard drives and a spare server for such an occasion.
 
We're a Dell shop. In the neighborhood of 400 physical servers that my group supports and Dell's support is superb. this is however platinum support. Probably well out of the scope of your budget. The 6850's are outstanding enterprise class servers. Again, probably a bit pricey for what your describing but the lower end servers are good as well. I've worked with IBM, Compaq and Dell. Of those three I prefer Dell though I've had pretty good experiences with IBM too.
 
I absolutely hate Dell's servers. All of our Dell boxes are referred to as 'big black delldos'. Last I checked they all came with POS Broadcom NICs built-in and crap MegaRAID controllers. Overall they just seem to give us a lot more trouble than any of the HP, IBM or Sun equipment that we have and we have a lot more HP equipment than we do Dell. The only things that give us more problems are the HP Itaniums, all the rest of the HP hardware is fine.

A few years ago we had Dell send us a server to demo and piece by piece it fell apart, after a few weeks of fighting with support off and on they eventually replaced everything except the case before it would work properly. And on top of it, the 'tech' they sent out turned out to be a salesman and when the thing didn't work he just called the exact same support number we had, at least it was him sitting on hold that time though.
 
If you have any kind of an affinity for AMD, then you're not going to want to go with Dell because they're an all-Intel shop for their products. Although it'll be interesting to see what happens with those Alienware rumors...

My greatest personal experience is with Compaq/HP servers. Fortunately, HP dumped their idea of servers in favor of the Compaq way of building them, so it's still very familiar if you liked Compaq servers.

Not alot of experience with IBM servers - I've used a couple of their 330 series servers - most memorable thing that struck me as far as innovation was the built-in KVM capability, other than that - nothing very special. But then I haven't had a chance to play with their blade servers yet.

As for support, all three companies have good and bad days, although with Dell, I've found that the home users get far worse service than the corporate customers. I would agree with others that you seriously consider a rackmount server instead of a tower, especially if there's likely to be further growth in the organization. As for onboard nics, although my preference is for Intel, Broadcom isn't the end of the world. There were some notable problems involving using Ghost with Broadcom nics over Cisco switches, but that was addressed with newer Broadcom drivers.

 
If a "handful" of users means 5-10, you could likely even get by with a $1000 Dell SC430. During a sale, that can cost less than $1000 complete with SBS 2003 Standard Edition, 1-2 GB of ECC RAM, and a 160GB RAID 1 SATA array. We've used a comparable Dell with only 512MB of RAM for a couple of years with four users.

In the lower-mid range, the Dell 830 and 1420 have been fine for my clients.

I've used most recent Dell towers and smaller rack systems with SBS over the past few years and don't have any real complaints. I wouldn't say their Support is fantastic, but the few hardware problems I've seen have gotten fixed quickly.

None of my clients use HP or IBM, so I can't comment on those.

If at all possible, have your SBS Server locked up somewhere. An exposed Server mitigates some of the Security advantages of having a Server. Be sure to plan on at least a pair of USB hard drives for backup. Keep at least one drive off-site at all times, to avoid complete disaster in case of fire, flood, theft, angry employee, or virus attack.

I normally recommend buying a "Retail" version of SBS, so it can be migrated to other hardware if desired. But if you get your SBS for nearly-free in a Dell or other deal, that's obviously moot. I DO recommend re-installing Dell's SBS. You want at least a 20GB System partition (Dell's 12GB partition is too small) and you want to move all user data and Exchange data to a second data partition.
 
Ive never had any problem with Dell Support.

I have always gotton parts within the guarenteed window of service.

Once made a service call at 12:45am on new years day for a failed hd in a mirror, had a new drive by 3:30 in the mourning. Sucked for me and the UPS guy.

most people dont

A. buy the right warranty

B. dont know how to tell the dell support people WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO.



we had another low level employee call dell once for a hd on a server, took him 4 hours to finally get a hd from dell.


It has never taken me more than 20 minutes, for any part.

Ive even got them to replace mbs, on notebooks and servers in florida while I was on the phone driving down the road in ohio. Its all about knowing how to play their game.




to the original poster,


your budget should be somewhere in the realm of 2300-3000 for the server, software and appropriate licencing, an UPS, and a tape backup device.

thats assuming 10 users over all.
 
Originally posted by: RebateMonger
If a "handful" of users means 5-10, you could likely even get by with a $1000 Dell SC430. During a sale, that can cost less than $1000 complete with SBS 2003 Standard Edition, 1-2 GB of ECC RAM, and a 160GB RAID 1 SATA array. We've used a comparable Dell with only 512MB of RAM for a couple of years with four users.

In the lower-mid range, the Dell 830 and 1420 have been fine for my clients.

I've used most recent Dell towers and smaller rack systems with SBS over the past few years and don't have any real complaints. I wouldn't say their Support is fantastic, but the few hardware problems I've seen have gotten fixed quickly.

None of my clients use HP or IBM, so I can't comment on those.

If at all possible, have your SBS Server locked up somewhere. An exposed Server mitigates some of the Security advantages of having a Server. Be sure to plan on at least a pair of USB hard drives for backup. Keep at least one drive off-site at all times, to avoid complete disaster in case of fire, flood, theft, angry employee, or virus attack.

I normally recommend buying a "Retail" version of SBS, so it can be migrated to other hardware if desired. But if you get your SBS for nearly-free in a Dell or other deal, that's obviously moot. I DO recommend re-installing Dell's SBS. You want at least a 20GB System partition (Dell's 12GB partition is too small) and you want to move all user data and Exchange data to a second data partition.
Click to expand...


If your a VAR you can specify them to set a 20gb system partition, and i think you can order them that way also.

I would recommend going with a DAT72 for backup for the cost effectiveness and security of tapes.Ive never really cared for backup to disk scenerios and only use them in rare situations.

with a tape backup you can pull month's end or other tapes and secure them. Not quite a reliable option with b-to-disk.

I feel a hardware raid mirror and tape backup is a must, if you care about your data.
 
Thanks to everybody for your input.

RebateMonger, we are looking at 4-5 users right off the bat and maybe 3-4 more added over the next year. We do plan to lock the server up - I am more uptight about security than my business partner, which works out with me being the IT guy. As long as I can make security as transparent to him as possible I'm okay. I do value your input on this as from reading this forum I can tell you're a knowledgable, helpful guy and I already have a couple of your previous posts bookmarked/printed. 😉

Can you give me any idea what the deal is with the upcoming SBS 2003 R2? I know MS has the deal going where if you buy the OS with the hardware, you get a free upgrade to R2 when it comes out, but do I gain that benefit with a retail copy?

I'm not too worried about under-buying a bit now, as if our business grows at the rate we are projecting over the next year, my budget for IT will grow exponentially. 🙂
 
Originally posted by: 440sixpack
Thanks to everybody for your input.

RebateMonger, we are looking at 4-5 users right off the bat and maybe 3-4 more added over the next year. We do plan to lock the server up - I am more uptight about security than my business partner, which works out with me being the IT guy. As long as I can make security as transparent to him as possible I'm okay. I do value your input on this as from reading this forum I can tell you're a knowledgable, helpful guy and I already have a couple of your previous posts bookmarked/printed. 😉

Can you give me any idea what the deal is with the upcoming SBS 2003 R2? I know MS has the deal going where if you buy the OS with the hardware, you get a free upgrade to R2 when it comes out, but do I gain that benefit with a retail copy?

I'm not too worried about under-buying a bit now, as if our business grows at the rate we are projecting over the next year, my budget for IT will grow exponentially. 🙂
Click to expand...

under buying today, is tomorrows headache(espcially since you dont do this for a living)

overbuying today (espcially if you know you are going to grow) leaves room for expansion and will give you piece of mind.

 
We have an HP Proliant ML350 G3 and it seems to be pretty solid. Had a disk fail in it and all I had to do was get ahold of the vendor who sold it to us and HP sent us a replacement drive. It is coming up on 3 years old and I am extending the warranty on it to a 4th. For what we use it for the thing is plenty powerful. Such a shame the people who ran it before me turned it into a pure cluster f*ck. I would like to rebuild it but really dont have an opportunity to do it.
 
Originally posted by: smashp

under buying today, is tomorrows headache(espcially since you dont do this for a living)

overbuying today (espcially if you know you are going to grow) leaves room for expansion and will give you piece of mind.
Click to expand...

Actually, I completely agree with you on this. It's convincing my partner and being able to juggle the finances in the time frame we need to do this that could get in my way. But I'm confident I'll win out before we buy. 🙂
 
Originally posted by: 440sixpack
Originally posted by: smashp

under buying today, is tomorrows headache(espcially since you dont do this for a living)

overbuying today (espcially if you know you are going to grow) leaves room for expansion and will give you piece of mind.
Click to expand...

Actually, I completely agree with you on this. It's convincing my partner and being able to juggle the finances in the time frame we need to do this that could get in my way. But I'm confident I'll win out before we buy. 🙂
Click to expand...

Judge what you will need in the timeframe of a warranty. Without a warranty of some type you are just playing with fire and will get burned. Overbuying and planning 5 years down the road when you have a 3 year warranty wont do you much good imo.
 
440sixpack, I'd strongly urge you to get a rack-mount server
Click to expand...

I urge you not to listen to this advice.

I've got racks of 4U and 2U servers, along with experience deploying pretty much every type of HP, Dell and IBM server there is. No question in my book that rack servers are a big fat uber pain in the ass. Unless you're working for a major telecom and are confined for space, rack servers are idiotic with a small company. Get a good tower and be done with it. At least you can add drives to the tower later on if you want, and unlike rack servers towers don't need an environmentally controlled room because they can actually dissipate heat on their own.

Nothing look more moronic than when I go into a company's server farm, and see 1500sq feet of emtpy space, and a the only thing in a the room is a rack of three 2U servers.

Normally my advice is to go with a Dell entry level business server because they tend to be tough little units that will last forever and are non proprietary. I just priced out a Dell SC430 for you with a dual core P2.8, dual 250gig SATA's, and 1gig of RAM for just less than a grand. You'll need to get your own SATA RAID card, but those are like, $20 of off NewEgg. Dell assumes you're too stupid to install your own, and hence upcharges you greatly to get a hardware RAID option. My response to Dell is to get my own SATA RAID controller for their servers.

6-7 years ago IBM made solid little workgroup servers - no longer.

HP's Opteron based servers get my respect, but you're better building it yourself if you go that route.

For small mid size business server I now build them on my own.



 
Originally posted by: 440sixpack
Can you give me any idea what the deal is with the upcoming SBS 2003 R2? I know MS has the deal going where if you buy the OS with the hardware, you get a free upgrade to R2 when it comes out, but do I gain that benefit with a retail copy?

I'm not too worried about under-buying a bit now, as if our business grows at the rate we are projecting over the next year, my budget for IT will grow exponentially. 🙂
Click to expand...
SBS 2003 Release 2 will be given to buyers of OEM or System Builder Servers if you purchase between March 1 and July 31. Retail copies aren't eligible.

Unfortunately, R2 had almost no added features over what are available in the present SBS 2003 R2. Pretty much anything you can do with SBS 2003 R2, you can do with SBS 2003 SP1. Most of the really interesting Server 2003 R2 features, like the multi-site stuff, have been stripped from SBS R2. It won't affect most SBS users either way.

As I stated, if the price is the same (barring Dell sales), I prefer Retail SBS because you can move it to different hardware if you want. But it's not often a big deal for most small businesses, who won't be moving Servers around. But if you do get a Dell or HP with OEM SBS, and it has a motherboard failure, you'll have to replace the MB (with the same MB), or get another SBS license.

If you are thinking ten client PCs or so, the Dell 830 with 1GB or (preferably) 2GB of RAM would be appropriate. Defintely plan on a RAID array. I'd prefer RAID 1 in this case. And have SOME kind of backup solution in mind. If you can afford a tape drive, that's fine. I'd still recommend having at least one external USB backup drive available. They have a thousand uses with Servers.
 
Originally posted by: spikespiegal
You'll need to get your own SATA RAID card, but those are like, $20 of off NewEgg. Dell assumes you're too stupid to install your own, and hence upcharges you greatly to get a hardware RAID option. My response to Dell is to get my own SATA RAID controller for their servers.
Click to expand...
Actually, the Dell SC420 and SC430 have built-in software/hardware SATA RAID 1. I use it for my home SBS 2003 Server. As you mentioned, you can also get an inexpensive software/hardware RAID PCI card, or can go with an approx $200 hardware PCI RAID card if you want full hardware RAID. For RAID 1, I don't think it maks much difference which way you go.

A removable PCI RAID card has the advantage of being able to move the array to another motherboard if necessary. But a new motherboard would be unlicensed for OEM SBS, and would likely demand a "Repair Install" of SBS anyway. With Servers, since everybody (hopefully) keeps good backups, doing a preliminary install (CD 1) of SBS to get the HAL correct, and then doing a System and Data restore to get the AD and data correct isn't that big a deal if you know how to do it.

And, yes, I agree that rack mounts aren't necessarily the best solution for small businesses, especially with only one or two servers. The racks are pricey and big, the 1U and 2U servers are REALLY loud, and they usually aren't as flexible with PCI cards and extra drives.
 
Buying servers is like anything else you get what you pay for. here are a few good practices when buying a server.

1. STAY AWAY from the generic "custom built" server. if you stick with a name brand your life will be easier when something fails on the server. Parts, drivers, and service will be much easier to obtain

2. if you find a deal to good to be true then question the hell out of it. nothing worse than having to go back and ask for more money
because your server didn't come with an OS or something like that.

3. talk to someone who has the same type of enviroment that you have or want

4. BEWARE of salesmen they will lie and sell you crap you don't need and will never use.
 
Also, make sure you stay up on your licensing from the very beginning. I was put in a situation at my last job of going through all the old software and bringing us up to date licenses for 200 employees. It was a giant PITA. It also has the perception of being cheaper to keep your licenses up to date from the start, rather than have to play catch-up 3 years later and spend $10,000 dollars or a whole lot more at one time.

Build you an Excel workbook with tabs for all the products and hardware you use and keep track of the licenses, keys, date of purchase, place of purchase, and any service contracts or open license numbers you have, and serial numbers of devices. If your business grows like you're hoping it will, the IT manager you hire in 5 years will be grateful for it.
 
Actually, the Dell SC420 and SC430 have built-in software/hardware SATA RAID 1.
Click to expand...

Me bad. Dell's RAID configuration options are confusing and they try too hard to upscale you to SCSI for no valid reason. If the SC430 has onboard SATA RAID options, I have no problems with it provided the option is within cost reason. I've set up countless Dell SCSI Perc3/4 controllers, and never had a problem with them.

I've deployed Dell SC series servers all over the place. Even have my Lotus Domino Server running off one. Some of the fastest P3 terminal servers I've ever run were Dell SC's as well. I'm sorry, but the 2xxx series are overpriced for just a fancier case and redundant power supplies.

So, I stick to my rec of a Dell SC430 with dual Core P4. 1-2 gig of RAM, (whatever speed you can afford), and 250gig SATA's in RAID 1. For back-up, get an external USB drive and be done with it.
 
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