Is the US's view of China too positive?

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: aswedc
Poor peasants and pollution?

Yes.

You mean like in democratic India, Mexico, and Brazil, who are quite possibly worse off than China?

I'm not denying democratic nations have the same problem. I was speaking to the fact these weren't considered on the cover of Newsweek.

Face it, the Chinese government is doing a fine job of bringing the country into the developed world - the results of their economic policy benefits millions of people every day.

For me, democracy is an integral part of development, but if you are talking about economic development than sure, they're doing a decent job. Nice of you to forget the decades the flailed around though before they saw the light though.

A democracy would set back this process by years, if it ever got back on track at all.

Democracies have shown themselves to be plenty capable of economic development over history.

When it comes down to it, I think people would rather have their new jobs and wealth than political freedom.

LOL. You sound like a fan of totalitarianism. Don't really know how to respond to this.

Don't hate China because it's different.

Do you have any evidence I hate China because it's different? :roll: This is just a strawman and a ad hominem.

Or is it because you're afraid it'll overshadow the US?

Why attack my motives? I suggest you look into logical fallacies.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
Everything in the world turns around money and economics.

So you'd prostitute yourself for anal sex if someone offered enough money?

And to some extent your argument is circular. China is economically important in large part because of US policy towards it.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Let's make sure we don't confuse the hatred of the Chinese government with the people of China. The Chinese people are proud, caring folk with a wonderful culture that deserve our respect.

I think people are people, so I don't really give one person hatred or love based on their nationality (that goes for Americans too).

But I give credit to individuals and groups who are able to throw off oppressive governments. (And there are Chinese who definitely trying to do that and I'm glad we give them asylum).

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
Well, we can't ignore China because they will be the driver in the next 10-20 years in Asia. You cannot just ingore 1.3 billion people much like we cannot ignore the 1 billion in India.

Everything in the world turns around money and economics.

No, it really doesn't. Money and economics are certainly a major part of our society, and our technological and social progress would not have been possible without our modern economic system. But there is more to life than money. We like China because they seem to be playing the economics game with us fairly well, and you have to respect that. But we are making a mistake in treating that as too important. A rich jackass is still a jackass. We need to judge China on the whole picture, not the fact that they can make a lot of cheap products.

 

[0roo0roo]

well yea you cant ignore them but population is overrated. just look at the top nations of the world. china and india have loads of DEAD WIEGHT.

you think we got a social security problem? lol

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: kage69
TLC, since you're over there I have to ask: have the Chinese you are in contact with espoused any opinions on the 3 Gorges Dam project? With Beijing locking-up outspoken critics of the project, I'll understand if it hasn't come up in conversation.

Just curious...

Nobody I've spoken too has really broached the subject nor have I considered asking anyone about it. It's nothing that's been avoided. It just hasn't come up in conversation yet; but I'll ask next chance I get to see what people have to say. For the most part though I'd guess it's probably more of a local environmental issue to a minority and the vast majority really don't have an opinion one way or another.

And to address some others in here...I don't get the whole "oppression" thing. 10 years ago it may have been a valid complaint but it doesn't apply nearly so much now. The Chinese do protest against their government on issues they disagree with. In fact, just last week a Chinese judge ruled that police did not have the right to detain a certain group of protesters and new laws for protester rights are being put in place. The police are actually happy because it will help to define their responsibilities. Unfortunately I can't find anything about it on the web. I wish I'd have kept that day's paper as a reference.

Personally I don't find anything that goes on in China in the way of dissidence that much different from the US. There are a few loud, squeaky wheels, but like most people in the US, Chinese people just want to be able to eat a decent meal and have some fun once in a while. And this whole "They are out to take us over" routine is pretty silly. From my pov it's mere rhetoric along the lines of sayng that the US is out to colonialize the RoTW or the Germans are all turning into neo-nazis and a new Hitler will rise from the ashes. It's little more than ridiculously overstated alarmism from the clueless paranoids.

 

[imported_Skorpio]

I have been reading this thread for a while, and I don?t think anyone is necessarily right or wrong in their statement, but here is my opinion.

To a point Infohawk I agree with you. I received the copy of Newsweek, and even though Im Chinese, and No, I wasn?t born in China or immigrated to the US, as I was born as a (Mainland) Chinese-American. I personally found the cover of Newsweek distasteful, and I found that it disrespected it, and it seemed to imply to me that asian women as sex symbols. But on the other hand, what did you expect Newsweek to show? Death and disease?

Ok on your response of calling China a totalitarian government. Yes it was, during the Cultural Revolution of the 1960?s which I thought was the dumbest thing ever done by the Chinese government. My relatives lived through it, and basically it imprisoned teachers and the upper class and burned traditional Chinese literature?which was so stupid to create an working class?my mom speaks on how the Chinese cultural revolution took our family dog because it was illegal during that time. My grandpa even remembers the time before the Japanese invaded China. However in fact the Chinese Communist government is not as totalitarian as some people might think, based on propaganda, or what they?ve seen. I have to say that they IMPROVED FOR THE BETTER. Not that you are to blame, but I have been to china from the late 80?s at least once a year, in Shanghai, Xi?an, Beijing, Nanjing, and some other smaller farm cities in the interior of the China. You could basically do anything, in China, it?s just that people don?t vote, and compared to the low voter turnout?I don?t think it makes a difference. Not that Im supporting Communism or anything. Yeah there are some poverty but that is changing, I remember?the farmers do complain and the government is trying to listen to their demands, and do have local governments that listen, but the bureaucracy slows things down.

Three Gorges Dam:
I personally think that?s a dumb idea, China needs to invest more in cleaner sources of energy like solar power?..or nuclear energy.

What about the living conditions in China? You are talking about 20% occupancy? I swear, they get eaten up like hotcakes, because of a new rising upper class. Everything had improved from the 10 years I have been there?what about culture? Still traditional culture, with a blend of American style?more and more people dress in American / Western clothes?its not like they have to salute the Communist flag when they have to wake up?and theres Communist propaganda everywhere in China?.its just a HUGE MISCONCEPTION.

At least China is a good working example of a Communist government compared to other Communist governments, which led people to ruin?.governments aren?t perfect, and just wait a while, and things will change.

Human Rights:
Human rights come down to what your own morals are, its not like they grab citizens, and gas them like what Saddamn did to the ethnic Kurds. At least there is a lower crime rate in China, and China has responded to international pressure, because now not anyone who commits a crime faces a death penalty. Besides people like those defectors that you talk about like FuLan Gong and speak out against China...who is a cult leader...were discredited recently, and had been proven to be frauds, only saying so for their own personal benefit and their own glamour. Besides now the Dali Lama and the Chinese government are talking.

Regarding Taiwan, that you could blame Chen, he is the one who just talks big, if he doesn?t talk big all the time, China and Taiwan would in fact have better relationships?I know for sure someone is going to flame on this one. China would leave Taiwan alone, You want to talk about besides its just dumb, I mean Taiwan already has their own internal government?besides China wont fire until Chen does something dumb also relations with Taiwan has improved, Taiwan businesses invest in China too, there has been air flights between China and Taiwan.

Come on, it?s like if California decided to breakaway from the US what do you think the US would do? An analogy could be with the US civil war?.not making a direct analogy but you could think of it like that SOMEWHAT.

Im not saying I?m supporting the Chinese Communist government, and anyone saying that I?m a communist is just plain ignorant. And if you are gonna say Im a US traitor, DON?T, because I love America, and I love China too. Sure there policies do need improvement on, but overall it?s improving, and it would be democratic in the future without the need for a revolution. Sure yeah yeah yeah?political freedom, it will come and besides not a lot of people care about politics in China, its only just a few people and NO I don?t speak for the Chinese government. Also, the US I think doesn?t have to worry about China, a Chinese hostile takeover?LMAO?this isn?t the time of Genghis Khan (even though he was Present Day Mongolian)?however you do have to give China credit, that it took a path for the best other communist nations?.at least it has positive relations with the US?.otherwise?.you have a huge bitter angry giant with nuclear weapons.

I just also wanted to say that the BUSH family has lots of investments in Shanghai?I?ll try to look up some proof?but Im not making this up.

Im not saying anyone here is wrong..and putting anyone else down here?but this just my opinion and how I see it..after all I have been in various parts in China.

However in the end?history repeats itself for all

governments?.anarchy?tyranny?democracy?.it?s just one cycle.

 

[episodic]

A billion potential future subscribers. . .

 

[0roo0roo]

Come on, it?s like if California decided to breakaway from the US what do you think the US would do? An analogy could be with the US civil war?.not making a direct analogy but you could think of it like that SOMEWHAT.

if the union didn't win....and retreated to california. so no, not a good analogy at all.

 

[Chinadefender]

Oh. This thread becomes longer. These days I was attracted by news about the May 9th Celebration in Moscow. The WWII history is rather interesting.

It is natural that China has a lot to blame and a lot to praise. After all, it mainly depends on Chinese themselves to solve problems and enhance improvement.

The criteria should be facts, mainly including statistics, on-site visit and overall news reports, right?

Infohawk you are right, "the existence of US problems don't make China's problems go away." I just smile when Stunt said "I would seriously make the arguement that it will be far easier for the Chinese to revolt against their leadership when they have a taste of freedom, wealth, americanism. "

I do not want to say good for Saddam. But I have to say the living condition of common people in Iraq now are far worse than when they were in his ruling. Examples are like electricity and tapwater supply. Hope this war ended soon and draw back oil price to normal

3 Gorges Dam? Do Kage69 mean the waterpower dam in construction?

It is true that there are many debates over it since the proposal was raised in 1960s.

As far as I know, three obvious critic views:

1. Environmental effects. Many specific worries about it.
2. Economic deficit. A huge project.
3. Military defense weakening

There are still some complaints now. But just complaints because the congress has passed the final construction proposal after long debates and the Chairman has sighed it.

I just see the news that China electricity supply in 2005 is expected to suffer 20 million kw. in deficit.