is the muslim problem that big in Europe?

[BlahBlahYouToo]

it sounds like our mexican problem over here except they aren't illegal (?).

POTSDAM, Germany — Germany's attempt to create a multicultural society has "utterly failed," Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Saturday, adding fuel to a debate over immigration and Islam polarizing her conservative camp.

Speaking to a meeting of young members of her Christian Democrats (CDU), Merkel said allowing people of different cultural backgrounds to live side by side without integrating had not worked in a country that is home to some four million Muslims.

"This (multicultural) approach has failed, utterly failed," Merkel told the meeting in Potsdam, south of Berlin.


..Merkel faces pressure from within her CDU to take a tougher line on immigrants who don't show a willingness to adapt to German society and her comments appeared intended to pacify her critics.

She said too little had been required of immigrants in the past and repeated her usual line that they should learn German in order to get by in school and have opportunities on the labor market.

The debate over foreigners in Germany has shifted since former central banker Thilo Sarrazin published a book accusing Muslim immigrants of lowering the intelligence of German society.

Sarrazin was censured for his views and dismissed from the Bundesbank, but his book proved highly popular and polls showed a majority of Germans agreed with the thrust of his arguments.


.Merkel has tried to accommodate both sides of the debate, talking tough on integration but also telling Germans that they must accept that mosques have become part of their landscape.

She said on Saturday that the education of unemployed Germans should take priority over recruiting workers from abroad, while noting Germany could not get by without skilled foreign workers.

In a weekend newspaper interivew, her Labor Minister Ursula von der Leyen (CDU) raised the possibility of lowering barriers to entry for some foreign workers in order to fight the lack of skilled workers in Europe's largest economy.


.."For a few years, more people have been leaving our country than entering it," she told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung. "Wherever it is possible, we must lower the entry hurdles for those who bring the country forward."

The German Chamber of Industry and Commerce (DIHK) says Germany lacks about 400,000 skilled workers.

Yet Horst Seehofer, chairman of the Christian Social Union (CSU), the CDU's sister party, has rejected any relaxation of immigration laws and said last week there was no room in Germany for more people from "alien cultures."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39703380/ns/world_news-europe/

 

[techs]

There is already a thread on the rise of fascism in Germany in the Politics forum.

 

[soulcougher73]

This is probably more P&N. But from articles ive read i think it is becoming a problem in a few European countries. I think we are finally starting to see some backlash that has been brewing for awhile. I predicted this would happen about 5 years ago in P&N expecially in Europe since they have a much richer history as a county then the US does.

 

[SunnyD]

Largest religion in the world. Islam is just as big a problem as Christianity is. And Judaism. And Hinduism. And Buddhism. And <insert all other religions here>.

 

[BeauJangles]

Largest religion in the world. Islam is just as big a problem as Christianity is. And Judaism. And Hinduism. And Buddhism. And <insert all other religions here>.

The title is misleading. The problem in Germany, for instance, is less of a religious one and more of a cultural one. As the German economy started to boom, Germany was in desperate need of bodies to fill the needs of their economy. They turned to foreigners, who they welcomed into their country on temporary visas. Most of these people happen to be Muslim, but the real issue here is that the majority of them lived outside of German society. They were not welcomed, so instead of integrating and becoming German, they remained 'different.' The minute the economy slowed down, Germany turned on them and wanted to throw them out of the country, despite the fact that many of them had been there for a generation.

The problem in Europe isn't particularly religion, it is a lack of integration within the society.

 

[techs]

The title is misleading. The problem in Germany, for instance, is less of a religious one and more of a cultural one. As the German economy started to boom, Germany was in desperate need of bodies to fill the needs of their economy. They turned to foreigners, who they welcomed into their country on temporary visas. Most of these people happen to be Muslim, but the real issue here is that the majority of them lived outside of German society. They were not welcomed, so instead of integrating and becoming German, they remained 'different.' The minute the economy slowed down, Germany turned on them and wanted to throw them out of the country, despite the fact that many of them had been there for a generation.

The problem in Europe isn't particularly religion, it is a lack of integration within the society.

Highlighted for truth. When you import people to be guest workers and not citizens of your country, they have no incentive to integrate. They never know when you will kick them out. Not to mention the resentment of the native population whose jobs you often take.

Which is why the Republican plan to import guest workers into the US is so wrong.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

The title is misleading. The problem in Germany, for instance, is less of a religious one and more of a cultural one. As the German economy started to boom, Germany was in desperate need of bodies to fill the needs of their economy. They turned to foreigners, who they welcomed into their country on temporary visas. Most of these people happen to be Muslim, but the real issue here is that the majority of them lived outside of German society. They were not welcomed, so instead of integrating and becoming German, they remained 'different.' The minute the economy slowed down, Germany turned on them and wanted to throw them out of the country, despite the fact that many of them had been there for a generation.

The problem in Europe isn't particularly religion, it is a lack of integration within the society.

so when one is muslim, is it their religion or culture, or both?
the article calls them "muslim" immigrants. i don't think I've ever heard of Catholics from say, Italy, referred to as "Catholic" immigrants?

 

[shortylickens]

For reference, most Europeans dont have liberal white guilt, so a lot of stuff is not taboo to them, like expressing their real feelings.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Largest religion in the world. Islam is just as big a problem as Christianity is. And Judaism. And Hinduism. And Buddhism. And <insert all other religions here>.

second largest according to Wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

 

[piasabird]

One thing Germany is saying is they need more engineers and most of the incoming muslims do not place emphasis on education. This is causing a dumming down of the general public in Germany. This is much the same problem USA has with Mexico. Maybe what the USA should do is offer highly educated people from Mexico and other places a preference or exception from immigration quotas.

There is no good logical reason to allow your existing population to be overrun and taken over by immigrants. What you really want is for more intelligent and talented immigrants that will lift up your society, rather than bring down your society to the stone age. Also some muslims under sharia law practice polygamy.

 

[Vic Vega]

Highlighted for truth. When you import people to be guest workers and not citizens of your country, they have no incentive to integrate. They never know when you will kick them out. Not to mention the resentment of the native population whose jobs you often take.

Which is why the Republican plan to import guest workers into the US is so wrong.

lol

 

[soulcougher73]

so when one is muslim, is it their religion or culture, or both?
the article calls them "muslim" immigrants. i don't think I've ever heard of Catholics from say, Italy, referred to as "Catholic" immigrants?

It is sort of both. Muslims believe in mixing religion with politics/goverment.

 

[soulcougher73]

One thing Germany is saying is they need more engineers and most of the incoming muslims do not place emphasis on education. This is causing a dumming down of the general public in Germany. This is much the same problem USA has with Mexico. Maybe what the USA should do is offer highly educated people from Mexico and other places a preference or exception from immigration quotas.

There is no good logical reason to allow your existing population to be overrun and taken over by immigrants. What you really want is for more intelligent and talented immigrants that will lift up your society, rather than bring down your society to the stone age. Also some muslims under sharia law practice polygamy.

New Zealand has those type of immigration laws. I looked into it, but my skill set is not highly sought after in NZ so it would be very hard for me to move/work there.

 

[SunnyD]

The problem in Europe isn't particularly religion, it is a lack of integration within the society.

Remove religion and there's one less thing for people to quibble over. Religion just happens to be a fairly major item to people however, so it tends to lead to more than just trifle quibbling. Remove it, and people will be able to integrate into society a hell of a lot easier.

The two leading causes of war: Religion and Nationalism.

Take your pick, but they both cause nothing but trouble.

 

[BeauJangles]

so when one is muslim, is it their religion or culture, or both?
the article calls them "muslim" immigrants. i don't think I've ever heard of Catholics from say, Italy, referred to as "Catholic" immigrants?

Most of the immigrants this article is discussing are Turkish or of Turkish descent. There are also a fair number from the Balkans. Most of them are Muslim, so referring to them as "Muslim immigrants" is easier than breaking them out by country or by saying "immigrants" which would include a different group of immigrants who have been equally as troublesome (in Germany's perspective): the Russians and people from former Soviet republics.

They are a "different" group because many of them are highly sought after within Germany due to their technical knowledge. They, too, however are societal outcasts.

 

[BeauJangles]

Remove religion and there's one less thing for people to quibble over. Religion just happens to be a fairly major item to people however, so it tends to lead to more than just trifle quibbling. Remove it, and people will be able to integrate into society a hell of a lot easier.

The two leading causes of war: Religion and Nationalism.

Take your pick, but they both cause nothing but trouble.

Religion isn't the problem in Germany. It never has been the problem in Germany, though it is often blamed.

The problems to integration within Germany go far beyond religion and at their core they are cultural and legal. Germans place a high emphasis on blood, blood lines, and blood ties. You are German because you have German blood, not because you occupy German land. Even before the Prussians and the takeover of Germany, the various German states and fiefdoms had relied almost entirely on lineage for determining membership, inclusion, and citizenship status.

While nobody should berate Germany for how it makes its determinations of citizenship, I believe that there is a serious discussion to be had over their partial inclusion of these immigrants. They've ridden these immigrants to the top of the European economic world, yet deny them citizenship, refuse to associate with them, and treat them like dirt. It is a failure of their society to offer these people German language classes, to teach them German culture, and to make them feel welcome in a country that many of these "immigrants" have called home for thirty or forty years.

The fact that they're Muslim is a far smaller factor than the differences in their appearance, their traditions, their language, their housing, and their values. Xenophobia in general, not specifically against Muslims, is what's to blame, IMO.

 

[SunnyD]

Religion isn't the problem in Germany. It never has been the problem in Germany, though it is often blamed.

The problems to integration within Germany go far beyond religion and at their core they are cultural and legal. Germans place a high emphasis on blood, blood lines, and blood ties. You are German because you have German blood, not because you occupy German land. Even before the Prussians and the takeover of Germany, the various German states and fiefdoms had relied almost entirely on lineage for determining membership, inclusion, and citizenship status.

While nobody should berate Germany for how it makes its determinations of citizenship, I believe that there is a serious discussion to be had over their partial inclusion of these immigrants. They've ridden these immigrants to the top of the European economic world, yet deny them citizenship, refuse to associate with them, and treat them like dirt. It is a failure of their society to offer these people German language classes, to teach them German culture, and to make them feel welcome in a country that many of these "immigrants" have called home for thirty or forty years.

The fact that they're Muslim is a far smaller factor than the differences in their appearance, their traditions, their language, their housing, and their values. Xenophobia in general, not specifically against Muslims, is what's to blame, IMO.

I say again, just in case you (apparently) missed it the first time.

The two leading causes of war: Religion and Nationalism.

Pretty sure I covered both of your arguments there.

 

[Nintendesert]

Remove religion and there's one less thing for people to quibble over. Religion just happens to be a fairly major item to people however, so it tends to lead to more than just trifle quibbling. Remove it, and people will be able to integrate into society a hell of a lot easier.

The two leading causes of war: Religion and Nationalism.

Take your pick, but they both cause nothing but trouble.

I'd like you to find a war that was actually caused by Religion, for most the underlying reasons are always resource/power/land grabs and simply used Religion as the cover story.

 

[Vic Vega]

It is sort of both. Muslims believe in mixing religion with politics/goverment.

Islam is basically at its height I believe, much like Christianity 500+ years ago. There was a time when Christian religious leaders (I won't delve into denominations for the sake of keeping this simple) were also government, military and community leaders - as Islam is today. Since that time most nations with large Christian populations have all but eliminated religious leaders from exclusively holding those roles as they once did; at the same time you have the USA being formed which basically restricts the practice. Christianity has been on a steady decline for the last 500 years because of this.

I think in the next 500 years you will start to see Islam decline like Christianity with the populations of so called "Muslim" countries removing their religious leaders from government, community and military positions, much like Turkey has done. It could happen even faster as the globe communicate much more than during Christianity's transition.

The world is a better place with the Pope no longer commanding armies. It will be an even better place when the same occurs within Islam.

 

[BoomerD]

The "Muslim Problem" is a big problem everywhere that they infest.

 

[SunnyD]

I'd like you to find a war that was actually caused by Religion, for most the underlying reasons are always resource/power/land grabs and simply used Religion as the cover story.

Crusades.

 

[kami333]

Crusades.

Land grab. Religion never really matters to those in power, it's just used to control the masses and get them all riled up. "We're going to kill the heathens and free the righteous" works a lot better than "Help me expand my holdings".

 

[ShawnD1]

lolercoasters

Hasn't anyone ever read a history book? Austria-Hungary sucked balls in WW1 because soldiers all spoke different languages and the daily briefing had to be repeated in 10+ languages. Germany's army was a unified group of people who all spoke the same language and were able to coordinate very complicated battle tactics.

Multiculturalism FTL.

 

[Nintendesert]

Crusades.

Hardly. Not even the current Israel/Palestine conflict is about religion. They were land grabs.

 

[SunnyD]

Land grab. Religion never really matters to those in power, it's just used to control the masses and get them all riled up. "We're going to kill the heathens and free the righteous" works a lot better than "Help me expand my holdings".

Hardly. Not even the current Israel/Palestine conflict is about religion. They were land grabs.

Land grab due to what? Oh yeah, that's right - the Christian holy lands... must bring it into the fold. I never said that it wasn't a land grab. Religion was used as a pretext for it. Remove the religion, there is no pretext for it.