Is the modern conservative movement defensible when it comes to civil liberties? National Review answers that question

[Phokus]

A resounding "NO" should be coming out of everyone's mouths after reading this piece.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlan...view-then-and-now.html

Comparing NRO's conservative view about blacks and civil liberties back in the 50's and gays and civil liberties in the new millennium, it's just sad to see conservatives making the same bigoted mistakes that they made over 40 years ago.

The funny thing is, NRO's founding father (and founder of the modern conservative movement) William F Buckley , later denounced his own views and finally admitted that it was probably a good thing that the Government legislated civil rights, quite a 180 from what he was writing for NRO back in the 50's.

Best part of the article is this:

If worse comes to worst, and the federal courts sweep aside the marriage laws that most Americans still want, then decades from now traditionalists should be ready to brandish that footnote and explain to generations yet unborn: That is why we resisted.

If i had to make a guess, in 40 years from now, conservatives who wrote this drivel will be making yet another 180 backtrack and apologizing profusely for their bigoted ways (although i'm sure they'll find another group of minorities to oppress by then).

As a slight derail, WFB also later denounced the Iraq war and excessive CEO pay, so i guess as you gather old age and wisdom, you realize modern conservativism is basically a philosophy for children.

 

[OCGuy]

Interesting that gay marriage bans are in place in some of the most liberal states in the union.

What about the minority (D) base that has homophobic tendencies? Or do you just want to ignore that fact and blame it on the mormons? Or pretend that it was all a bunch of red-neck hilbillies in California.

 

[miketheidiot]

the national review is a really whacked out magazine, i read it about every other issue and am continuously amazed at their pompous, arrogant horseshit.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: OCguy
Interesting that gay marriage bans are in place in some of the most liberal states in the union.

What about the minority (D) base that has homophobic tendencies? Or do you just want to ignore that fact and blame it on the mormons? Or pretend that it was all a bunch of red-neck hilbillies in California.

didn't prop8 barely pass?

 

[PokerGuy]

My goodness, is there no end to your drivel??

 

[Zenmervolt]

Depends on how you define "defensible". If you just mean "able to be defended", then sure. If you mean able to be defended intelligently, then I'm going to have to agree with you that the position on civil rights for homosexual couples is not defensible.

As far as your opinion on conservatism as a whole, we'll have to continue to disagree on that one (though I do consider most social conservatism to be utterly ridiculous).

ZV

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: OCguy
Interesting that gay marriage bans are in place in some of the most liberal states in the union.

What about the minority (D) base that has homophobic tendencies? Or do you just want to ignore that fact and blame it on the mormons? Or pretend that it was all a bunch of red-neck hilbillies in California.

didn't prop8 barely pass?

Why should it have passed at all? This state has San Francisco, San Diego, West Hollywood....and more.

It also has many "younger" people, like myself, who may be conservative on many things, but dont really care who is screwing who in thier homes.

There is homophobia on both sides of the aisle. Pinning it all on the Republicans is the easy way out, because that is where the fundamentalist Xtian base is.

However, this leaves out the Catholic Mexican/South Americans, and the African Americans who are behind others in accepting gays. And you can bet most of them vote (D).

 

[Jschmuck2]

Originally posted by: OCguy
Interesting that gay marriage bans are in place in some of the most liberal states in the union.

What about the minority (D) base that has homophobic tendencies? Or do you just want to ignore that fact and blame it on the mormons? Or pretend that it was all a bunch of red-neck hilbillies in California.

I don't ignore it - and if you want to discuss that in another thread, that's fine too.

But, living here, you know just as well as I do that California is a microcosm of the rest of the country. It's not the ultra-liberal bastion of gay mansex that the rest of the country makes it out to be.

The areas at the top and the bottom are very progressive (the population centers) but the middle is very conservative.

Two liberal cities does not a liberal state make.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Phokus
If i had to make a guess, in 40 years from now, conservatives who wrote this drivel will be making yet another 180 backtrack and apologizing profusely for their bigoted ways (although i'm sure they'll find another group of minorities to oppress by then).

cyborgs? "Marriage btw humans and the nano-enhanced are against god's word!"

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: PokerGuy
My goodness, is there no end to your drivel??

Yes i'm the one making a serious intellectual case for legislated racism and homophobia :roll:

 

[Jschmuck2]

And San Diego is very conservative. There's a huge military presence there.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: OCguy
There is homophobia on both sides of the aisle. Pinning it all on the Republicans is the easy way out, because that is where the fundamentalist Xtian base is.

or maybe because a constitutional amendment "protecting marriage" is prominently featured on the Republican party platform?

Of course there's some anti-gay marriage libs, but speaking in terms of proportionality, it is not even close.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: OCguy
Interesting that gay marriage bans are in place in some of the most liberal states in the union.

What about the minority (D) base that has homophobic tendencies? Or do you just want to ignore that fact and blame it on the mormons? Or pretend that it was all a bunch of red-neck hilbillies in California.

I'm well aware of the 'reagan democrats'

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: OCguy
Interesting that gay marriage bans are in place in some of the most liberal states in the union.

What about the minority (D) base that has homophobic tendencies? Or do you just want to ignore that fact and blame it on the mormons? Or pretend that it was all a bunch of red-neck hilbillies in California.

It wasn't all, and if you run a regression using the attributes of the common person who voted for prop 8, by far the biggest influences were age and how religious they were. Not exactly attributes commonly thought of as liberal. Also, California is not as liberal as everyone thinks. The 'inland empire' is full of a whole load of ultraconservatives, there's a reason why CA will send both Nancy Pelosi and Darrel Issa to Congress.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: Jschmuck2

Originally posted by: OCguy
Interesting that gay marriage bans are in place in some of the most liberal states in the union.

What about the minority (D) base that has homophobic tendencies? Or do you just want to ignore that fact and blame it on the mormons? Or pretend that it was all a bunch of red-neck hilbillies in California.

I don't ignore it - and if you want to discuss that in another thread, that's fine too.

But, living here, you know just as well as I do that California is a microcosm of the rest of the country. It's not the ultra-liberal bastion of gay mansex that the rest of the country makes it out to be.

The areas at the top and the bottom are very progressive (the population centers) but the middle is very conservative.

Two liberal cities does not a liberal state make.

Well everything else about this state is liberal:

- We are on the front line of stem-cell funding
- We are on the front line of Green-house gas emission curbing
- Some of the most restrictive gun laws in the Union
- Unions bend the state over on a daily basis
- Effectively legal and easy to obtain high-grade marijuana


The reason this is relevant to the topic, is because the OP is trying to pin gay marriage issues on only one side. Im showing that even in a very liberal state, there is a long way to go.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Jschmuck2

Originally posted by: OCguy
Interesting that gay marriage bans are in place in some of the most liberal states in the union.

What about the minority (D) base that has homophobic tendencies? Or do you just want to ignore that fact and blame it on the mormons? Or pretend that it was all a bunch of red-neck hilbillies in California.

I don't ignore it - and if you want to discuss that in another thread, that's fine too.

But, living here, you know just as well as I do that California is a microcosm of the rest of the country. It's not the ultra-liberal bastion of gay mansex that the rest of the country makes it out to be.

The areas at the top and the bottom are very progressive (the population centers) but the middle is very conservative.

Two liberal cities does not a liberal state make.

Well everything else about this state is liberal:

- We are on the front line of stem-cell funding
- We are on the front line of Green-house gas emission curbing
- Some of the most restrictive gun laws in the Union
- Unions bend the state over on a daily basis



The reason this is relevant to the topic, is because the OP is trying to pin gay marriage issues on only one side. Im showing that even in a very liberal state, there is a long way to go.

Except you're trying to create an equivalency that's not there... if you ask your average democrat whether they're for or against gay marriage, they'd most likely say yes while if you ask your average republican, they'd most likely say no. Obviously you can find d's or r's that'll say the opposite, but you're being intellectually dishonest if you think there's any thing comparable here.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: Phokus

Except you're trying to create an equivalency that's not there... if you ask your average democrat whether they're for or against gay marriage, they'd most likely say yes while if you ask your average republican, they'd most likely say no. Obviously you can find d's or r's that'll say the opposite, but you're being intellectually dishonest if you think there's any thing comparable here.

Who cares about the "average"?


The fact is if the "liberal" party fully supported gay marriage, it wouldnt even be an issue. The liberal president doesnt even support 100% equal marraige, according to his campaigning.

I also think maybe we are using "liberal" and "Democrat" in the same context, which can be misleading. There are plenty of conservative Democrats.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: OCguy
The reason this is relevant to the topic, is because the OP is trying to pin gay marriage issues on only one side. Im showing that even in a very liberal state, there is a long way to go.

If by long way you mean about 2-4 years, then I suppose.

OP recognizes there are some liberals (generally the more religious and older demographic) who are less accepting of gay equality/rights.) But you keep trying to paint the dems as close to the Reps on the issue when the sides are very much opposed.

About 52% of Democrats favor gay marriage compared to 22% of Republicans. The parties are closer together on ABORTION than gay marriage.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Phokus

Except you're trying to create an equivalency that's not there... if you ask your average democrat whether they're for or against gay marriage, they'd most likely say yes while if you ask your average republican, they'd most likely say no. Obviously you can find d's or r's that'll say the opposite, but you're being intellectually dishonest if you think there's any thing comparable here.

Who cares about the "average"?


The fact is if the "liberal" party fully supported gay marriage, it wouldnt even be an issue. The liberal president doesnt even support 100% equal marraige, according to his campaigning.

I also think maybe we are using "liberal" and "Democrat" in the same context, which can be misleading. There are plenty of conservative Democrats.

Like i said, i know about "reagan democrats"

And Obama is fairly progressive on gay rights compared to most politicians, he voted AGAINST the defense of marriage act because he didn't think the federal government, he's at least for civil unions, and he's planning on repealing don't ask don't tell soon. Lets see a republican try that. Oh wait, he'd get killed in the polls by his bigoted base.

You're acting like it's the democrats that are causing this problem when it's clearly the republicans who are blocking social progress. If they weren't so aggressive against gay people, this wouldn't be an issue at all.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: OCguy
The reason this is relevant to the topic, is because the OP is trying to pin gay marriage issues on only one side. Im showing that even in a very liberal state, there is a long way to go.

If by long way you mean about 2-4 years, then I suppose.

OP recognizes there are some liberals (generally the more religious and older demographic) who are less accepting of gay equality/rights.) But you keep trying to paint the dems as close to the Reps on the issue when the sides are very much opposed.

About 52% of Democrats favor gay marriage compared to 22% of Republicans. The parties are closer together on ABORTION than gay marriage.

A whole 52% of the liberal party favor equal civil rights?


Yea, how far we've come.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: jonks
About 52% of Democrats favor gay marriage compared to 22% of Republicans. The parties are closer together on ABORTION than gay marriage.

A whole 52% of the liberal party favor equal civil rights?

Yea, how far we've come.

As you said, liberal != democrat. Get rid of the religious and the elderly dems and the number will jump another 30 percent. And way to ignore that about 80% of reps are against civil rights.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: jonks
About 52% of Democrats favor gay marriage compared to 22% of Republicans. The parties are closer together on ABORTION than gay marriage.

A whole 52% of the liberal party favor equal civil rights?

Yea, how far we've come.

As you said, liberal != democrat. Get rid of the religious and the elderly dems and the number will jump another 30 percent. And way to ignore that about 80% of reps are against civil rights.

OK get rid of the religious and eldery republicans and the number would probably jump too


This has pretty much proven my point that all we are doing is debating the degree of homophobia.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: jonks
About 52% of Democrats favor gay marriage compared to 22% of Republicans. The parties are closer together on ABORTION than gay marriage.

A whole 52% of the liberal party favor equal civil rights?

Yea, how far we've come.

As you said, liberal != democrat. Get rid of the religious and the elderly dems and the number will jump another 30 percent. And way to ignore that about 80% of reps are against civil rights.

OK get rid of the religious and eldery republicans and the number would probably jump too

This has pretty much proven my point that all we are doing is debating the degree of homophobia.

Yes, that's what we're debating. I don't think anyone claimed every single person in either party all believe the same thing. But as OP and I are saying, the parties are closer on the issue of abortion than gay marriage, so you arguing that both parties are similar numbers-wise on the issue is disingenuous. You wouldn't characterize abortion as an issue the two parties are close on, would you? Well they are closer on that than on gay marriage, which should tell you something.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Pathetic that gay marriage bans are in place in some of the most liberal states in the union.

Fixed it for ya.

What about the minority (D) base that has homophobic tendencies? Or do you just want to ignore that fact and blame it on the mormons? Or pretend that it was all a bunch of red-neck hilbillies in California.

I once read the manual for the human body. It says there's supposed to be only one asshole issued for each human being. Obviously, someone's been over-producing because there are too many assholes in the world, and they're not limited to one political or social group.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: Phokus
A resounding "NO" should be coming out of everyone's mouths after reading this piece.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlan...view-then-and-now.html

Comparing NRO's conservative view about blacks and civil liberties back in the 50's and gays and civil liberties in the new millennium, it's just sad to see conservatives making the same bigoted mistakes that they made over 40 years ago.

The funny thing is, NRO's founding father (and founder of the modern conservative movement) William F Buckley , later denounced his own views and finally admitted that it was probably a good thing that the Government legislated civil rights, quite a 180 from what he was writing for NRO back in the 50's.

Best part of the article is this:

If worse comes to worst, and the federal courts sweep aside the marriage laws that most Americans still want, then decades from now traditionalists should be ready to brandish that footnote and explain to generations yet unborn: That is why we resisted.

If i had to make a guess, in 40 years from now, conservatives who wrote this drivel will be making yet another 180 backtrack and apologizing profusely for their bigoted ways (although i'm sure they'll find another group of minorities to oppress by then).

As a slight derail, WFB also later denounced the Iraq war and excessive CEO pay, so i guess as you gather old age and wisdom, you realize modern conservativism is basically a philosophy for children.

To answer the topic question, yes, since they defend the right to life of unborn children. There is no greater civil liberty currently infringed.