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Is the left making itself irrelevant by becoming boring?

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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I find myself avoiding participating in more and more of the threads that pop up in P & N. I find the endless doom and gloom and bitching about Donald Trump to be repetitively boring. I don't need more evidence that he is a total disaster and simply needs to be impeached and won't be so long as the investigation into the Russia election interference thingi isn't finished and maybe not even them. I am bored by hearing about what assholes conservatives are, what hypocrites they are, etc. I am also concerned that the constant drumbeat of negative attacks on Trump no matter how deserved, can slowly transform into an addictive pattern, a wall of mental rage and anger that makes people deaf to anything positive. I believe that the way our of the mess we are in today requires a conscious effort at integrating the best of what all sides offer. I recently saw traditional thinking as an evolutionary advance over our original human condition where pretty much might makes right, the notion there is a higher purpose order we need to strive for. The value of that is that it prevents social chaos and disorder. The disadvantage is that it can cause slavish adherence to easily distorted moral principles.

Science and reason come in here in the enlightenment to counteract this mindless obedience. But that has led to the notion that everything is simply matter and that there is no built in truth that adheres to the evolved structure of our brains, another big intellectual mistake, in my opinion. I think it is time to take another step in our conscious evolution, on that accounts for the fact that our moral understanding of our place in the universe is evolving and will continue to do so, and that the task of today is to tease out what is best of these three stages of evolution that went before us too form a more up to date understanding. I think that is a discussion that isn't boring. To seek a more positive synthesis by understanding what is best and what function the traditional, the rational, and a more recent search for inner meaning leading to an appreciation of the strengths and functional necessity of each seems to me to be where we should be going.

Your thoughts?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
49,653
3,517
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A problem is that people are faced with situations they didn't think about or not bother to examine. Ours is a unique time and if we ever needed the application of outside the box intellectual and ethical examination it's now. AOC intrigues me in that she is doing something we've needed for decades and that is to hold our own as accountable as the other instead of politics as usual. Knowledge of the truth is a requirement for true reform, such as freshmen being oriented to get tax cuts for corporations. "We" don't do that, "they" do. Well yeah it's universal and we need to do as she, hold ourselves to a higher standard. But when it comes to it many will make excuses and try to get back to "business as usual" which is how we got Trump and can get another again.

The same old "doesn't work" does get boring.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
6,929
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Well, the first problem is touching on "the best of what all sides offer." That's predicated on the assumption that other sides have reasonable ground to stand on. How do you find value in a Trump cheerleader who believes that constant lying, corruption, hatred, incompetence and anti-science rhetoric are all perfectly acceptable so long as their side is "winning?" What do they have to bring to the table?

Our best shot at deposing the Trump regime and restoring democracy is to underscore Trump's many failures for moderates, galvanize the vote and make sure the Democrats choose someone both charismatic and intelligent. You don't get there by humoring hard-right people who think truth, integrity and logic don't matter any more.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
65,043
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Well, the first problem is touching on "the best of what all sides offer." That's predicated on the assumption that other sides have reasonable ground to stand on. How do you find value in a Trump cheerleader who believes that constant lying, corruption, hatred, incompetence and anti-science rhetoric are all perfectly acceptable so long as their side is "winning?" What do they have to bring to the table?

Our best shot at deposing the Trump regime and restoring democracy is to underscore Trump's many failures for moderates, galvanize the vote and make sure the Democrats choose someone both charismatic and intelligent. You don't get there by humoring hard-right people who think truth, integrity and logic don't matter any more.
You seem to believe that ideological belief can be countered by reason. I don't share that belief. Were I to engage you in an argument I would challenge your notion of what humoring hard right people of the kind you describe means to you. I believe it is a preconception of some kind that may be open to examination leading not to the conclusion necessarily that such folk have noting to bring to the table but that your preconceived notion may be preventing you from seeing anything that might actually be there. As I mentioned, traditional thinking is a step in consciousness that may in fact reduce cultural barbarism. It instills a conformity to law beyond that of the jungle and a demand for obedience to it. Can you put anything into that as a possibility?
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
6,929
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You seem to believe that ideological belief can be countered by reason. I don't share that belief. Were I to engage you in an argument I would challenge your notion of what humoring hard right people of the kind you describe means to you. I believe it is a preconception of some kind that may be open to examination leading not to the conclusion necessarily that such folk have noting to bring to the table but that your preconceived notion may be preventing you from seeing anything that might actually be there. As I mentioned, traditional thinking is a step in consciousness that may in fact reduce cultural barbarism. It instills a conformity to law beyond that of the jungle and a demand for obedience to it. Can you put anything into that as a possibility?
I'm talking about appealing to people in the middle who can be swayed by reason. With die-hard Trump fans, you can't really bother. They don't care about logic or evidence, so the only real hope for them is that they'll come to their own realization or will just be drowned out as demographics turn against them.

And that's not me bringing preconceptions to the table... it's basically how they are. How do you approach someone in good faith when all evidence shows they won't return the favor? This isn't like Star Wars, where you can find the good in the villain if you just dig deep enough... at a certain point, you have to accept that there's nothing you can do but wait for them to come to their senses.
 

woolfe9998

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2013
9,030
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You seem to believe that ideological belief can be countered by reason. I don't share that belief. Were I to engage you in an argument I would challenge your notion of what humoring hard right people of the kind you describe means to you. I believe it is a preconception of some kind that may be open to examination leading not to the conclusion necessarily that such folk have noting to bring to the table but that your preconceived notion may be preventing you from seeing anything that might actually be there. As I mentioned, traditional thinking is a step in consciousness that may in fact reduce cultural barbarism. It instills a conformity to law beyond that of the jungle and a demand for obedience to it. Can you put anything into that as a possibility?
What in your opinion do they have to contribute to this Grand Discussion you seem to desire? Please be specific.

Oh and BTW, as an aside, we are not here to entertain you.
 

Indus

Diamond Member
May 11, 2002
6,177
1,812
136
Your thoughts?
Boring? I think you maybe mischaracterizing your emotions.

What you're basically describing is it being a PTSD cycle that you can't get seem to get out of. You want some joy in your life, not constant flashbacks to the same old negativity stuff.

And the truth is it is PTSD of a kind.. kinda sorta a nightmare situation that you can't get out of. The best example would be people who have been abducted.

2 words for you buddy.

1. Breathe

2. Meditate.

They help. Literally the only two things that have helped me and my wife since were assaulted by a Trumper and told to get the fuck out "their country".
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
8,771
1,440
96
Boring? I think you maybe mischaracterizing your emotions.

What you're basically describing is it being a PTSD cycle that you can't get seem to get out of. You want some joy in your life, not constant flashbacks to the same old negativity stuff.

And the truth is it is PTSD of a kind.. kinda sorta a nightmare situation that you can't get out of. The best example would be people who have been abducted.

2 words for you buddy.

1. Breathe

2. Meditate.

They help. Literally the only two things that have helped me and my wife since were assaulted by a Trumper and told to get the fuck out "their country".
Nevermind if you are an US Citizen or legally here.
 

Indus

Diamond Member
May 11, 2002
6,177
1,812
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I am a US citizen. Told him that. Didn't matter. Still have 2 broken bones in my face.
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
8,771
1,440
96
I am a US citizen. Told him that. Didn't matter. Still have 2 broken bones in my face.
Not that I actually care about this, but what Ethnic group are you? I take it that you are not a "White Person"? Again I don't give a rat's ass about and it is fine with me if you don't want to answer.

For the record I always considered anyone born here to be an a "Real American" And the same for those who were granted US Citizenship.
 

Indus

Diamond Member
May 11, 2002
6,177
1,812
136
Not that I actually care about this, but what Ethnic group are you? I take it that you are not a "White Person"? Again I don't give a rat's ass about and it is fine with me if you don't want to answer.

For the record I always considered anyone born here to be an a "Real American" And the same for those who were granted US Citizenship.
Me and my wife are Asian.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Commodus: I'm talking about appealing to people in the middle who can be swayed by reason. With die-hard Trump fans, you can't really bother. They don't care about logic or evidence, so the only real hope for them is that they'll come to their own realization or will just be drowned out as demographics turn against them.

M: You are talking about how to win an election by getting more votes, the ones up for grabs in the middle. I am talking about an evolution in consciousness that can integrate and further evolve previous conscious advances human societies have made.

C: And that's not me bringing preconceptions to the table... it's basically how they are. How do you approach someone in good faith when all evidence shows they won't return the favor? This isn't like Star Wars, where you can find the good in the villain if you just dig deep enough... at a certain point, you have to accept that there's nothing you can do but wait for them to come to their senses.

M: I am not talking about directly approaching them at all. I am talking about integrating the positive values their particular evolutionary advance brought to society into a new and further step in a form that does not involve a rejection of what we can see as the benefits they have contributed. You reject and oppose dialogue with them because they can't listen because to listen would mean to them the loss of the value they bring. In shout, what kind of cultural formulation can we make, what kind of integration of conscious can we achieve that preserves a respect for traditional notions of authority, law and order, that does not lead to or need to be maintained by repression and fear.

The point here in my opinion is that your rejection of their value system in total requires them to reject yours in total as a reaction. Were you speaking their language in a way that included the positives they bring to the table first before adding to it that resistance would certainly be mitigated if not fully disappear. I say your position is preconceptive because to get past it you also have to come to your senses. You are locked in a boring war I want to get beyond. I believe we need a whole new form of conscious understanding that includes rather than rejects, that integrates what at a more superficial level of understanding appear to be opposites.

Nobody should want a barbarian state and what does the left have to offer, that all morality is subjective and everything is permitted?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
65,043
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What in your opinion do they have to contribute to this Grand Discussion you seem to desire? Please be specific.

Oh and BTW, as an aside, we are not here to entertain you.
I think my post before this one and in the original I mention the notion of a sacred nature of law and rules for human interactions, that there are abstract values that are natural or higher ordered that we need rather than might is right.

Please don't mistake my statement of boredom as a request to be personally entertained. I believe that the messages being expressed by, dare I say, the Trump Derangement Syndrome, easily visible here in this forum will equate, nationally as another lost election for Democrats in 2020 if it continues. I am not important and if I don't post in most of these lamentation threads on how totally fucked up Trump is because I find them to be boringly repetitive and utterly useless at convincing the other side of the inanity of their own ways, nothing is really lost. My intention is to say that what bores me will bore many. In fact I picked up the notion of how boring such threads are from folk who are themselves pushing for integrative evolution, another term I'm borrowing. I find a great deal of personal identification with my own notions of the integration of opposites at a higher level of understanding and others expressing similar ideas in the political- pshchological field. All this harkens back to my warning that Democrats are crap at messaging because they are fundamentally out to lunch in their understanding of moral values. They are thus out to lunch of how to be pursuasive.

I am back to warning again, most likely with little effect other than the subject matter here at least is more interesting to me. ;)
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
65,043
2,260
126
Boring? I think you maybe mischaracterizing your emotions.

What you're basically describing is it being a PTSD cycle that you can't get seem to get out of. You want some joy in your life, not constant flashbacks to the same old negativity stuff.

And the truth is it is PTSD of a kind.. kinda sorta a nightmare situation that you can't get out of. The best example would be people who have been abducted.

2 words for you buddy.

1. Breathe

2. Meditate.

They help. Literally the only two things that have helped me and my wife since were assaulted by a Trumper and told to get the fuck out "their country".
I am not bored by Trump supporters. I feel a certain compassion for them. How sad it would be to live at the level where you attack strangers of another race, most likely, and refer to them as other. However much they may hate and have hurt you, they are forced to live in their own miserable skin every minute of their life that do not transcend that miserable state. That is a far far worse state than the one you experienced, objectively of course, in my opinion, and perhaps not your own. What I find boring is to be trapped at a level where one is in a constant state of agitation, needlessly, over Trump Trump Trump, which I regard as part of his personal aim and need for attention. I try to look at him as another sick fuck in the great scheme of things. He too will pass as I hope your traumatic experience fades for you. All I can say is that what you experienced was deeply disrespectful of you and your wife as human beings, and that it is not an entirely new experience. I believe that present day trauma is in part devistating because it awakens unconsious feeling where something similarly damaging to ones self respect have happened in the past. This, of course, may be of little comfort since those connections are hard to see. Know, that as far as I am concerned you are fully entitled to all the feelings of rage such kinds of assault generate and you should not feel badly about yourself for what in that nature the insident may have brought out in you. In the course of trying to deal with personal trauma myself, I couldn't believe the titanic levels of rage that were and doubtless still are hidden in me. But what I did get out was good to get out and they connected back with things I had no idea had generated those feelings. Anyway good luck to you and your wife.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
65,036
12,173
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I think my post before this one and in the original I mention the notion of a sacred nature of law and rules for human interactions, that there are abstract values that are natural or higher ordered that we need rather than might is right.

Please don't mistake my statement of boredom as a request to be personally entertained. I believe that the messages being expressed by, dare I say, the Trump Derangement Syndrome, easily visible here in this forum will equate, nationally as another lost election for Democrats in 2020 if it continues. I am not important and if I don't post in most of these lamentation threads on how totally fucked up Trump is because I find them to be boringly repetitive and utterly useless at convincing the other side of the inanity of their own ways, nothing is really lost. My intention is to say that what bores me will bore many. In fact I picked up the notion of how boring such threads are from folk who are themselves pushing for integrative evolution, another term I'm borrowing. I find a great deal of personal identification with my own notions of the integration of opposites at a higher level of understanding and others expressing similar ideas in the political- pshchological field. All this harkens back to my warning that Democrats are crap at messaging because they are fundamentally out to lunch in their understanding of moral values. They are thus out to lunch of how to be pursuasive.

I am back to warning again, most likely with little effect other than the subject matter here at least is more interesting to me. ;)
I have to say I find all the warnings of what Democrats must do to win to be pretty tiresome. It seems to assume a win for Republicans is the default unless Democrats engage in precisely the proper ritual which will allow them to win. It’s silliness.

If you worry that ‘Trump Derangement Syndrome’ will lead to Republican victory then why didn’t ‘Obama Derangement Syndrome’ or ‘Clinton Derangement Syndrome’, which was vastly more unhinged, lead to Democratic victory? You are right that emotion tends to win out over reason when it comes to elections but shitting on your opponents is a tried and true appeal to emotion that’s extremely effective. In this case it’s also very well deserved.

If you need any evidence to its effectiveness this environment just led to one of the largest vote victories in modern American history, both by percentage and by margin. It seems that what bores you has motivated other Americans to an extent almost never before seen.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
24,604
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I have to say I find all the warnings of what Democrats must do to win to be pretty tiresome. It seems to assume a win for Republicans is the default unless Democrats engage in precisely the proper ritual which will allow them to win. It’s silliness.

If you worry that ‘Trump Derangement Syndrome’ will lead to Republican victory then why didn’t ‘Obama Derangement Syndrome’ or ‘Clinton Derangement Syndrome’, which was vastly more unhinged, lead to Democratic victory? You are right that emotion tends to win out over reason when it comes to elections but shitting on your opponents is a tried and true appeal to emotion that’s extremely effective. In this case it’s also very well deserved.

If you need any evidence to its effectiveness this environment just led to one of the largest vote victories in modern American history, both by percentage and by margin. It seems that what bores you has motivated other Americans to an extent almost never before seen.
Because liberals are enemies of the people and Americans are always looking for any excuse to return to their abusive GOP masters. They have been conditioned from birth to feel shame whenever they pull a lever with a D next to it.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
65,036
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Because liberals are enemies of the people and Americans are always looking for any excuse to return to their abusive GOP masters. They have been conditioned from birth to feel shame whenever they pull a lever with a D next to it.
Meh, I’m not so sure about that. Regardless it seems odd to think that the focus of Democrats have them on the road to electoral defeat almost exactly a month after they won one of the most crushing midterm victories in decades.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
24,604
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Meh, I’m not so sure about that. Regardless it seems odd to think that the focus of Democrats have them on the road to electoral defeat almost exactly a month after they won one of the most crushing midterm victories in decades.
Two years is a long way away and a lot can happen between now and then. I'm sure we both agree that a lot of very unprecedented things WILL happen between now and then.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
65,036
12,173
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Two years is a long way away and a lot can happen between now and then. I'm sure we both agree that a lot of very unprecedented things WILL happen between now and then.
Oh to be clear I am in no way saying that because Democrats won big here that they will necessarily win big in 2020 but I will say that indicting the strategy that just won them an overwhelming victory a month back without some sort of contrary evidence seems... wrong.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
65,043
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Because liberals are enemies of the people and Americans are always looking for any excuse to return to their abusive GOP masters. They have been conditioned from birth to feel shame whenever they pull a lever with a D next to it.
Who has not been conditioned from birth? In the West, since the enlightenment, we have communally agreed that we want our culture to condition people to the notion of inalienable rights coupled with civic responsibilities and more recently that authority belongs to the people, and is not a divine right of kings. The big debate for Americans has been whether those inalienable rights are conferred by a god as described in some self proclaimed authoritarian religious text or are to be determined by science, analysis, and reason. Personally, I don't see how you can accuse the right alone of being conditioned when you and I both share many of the same suppositions. It is these suppositions, the assumptions we live by, how much evolution in consciousness they represent, that I find to be the important matter. And because we are in the middle of a culture war about these matters, I am suggesting that what we need is a new form of consciously evolved understanding that integrates what is positive about the stages we have gone through to arrive at something suitable for the best of our current understanding and further, as I believe, one that integrates what is good from the past rather than pushing it away as unfit and other.

Right now Democrats are winning because of the cock up the Republican party has become, but the fact remains that the moral values the Republican party plays on and only at times pretends to espouse will remain and continue to be an essential part of culture. I am saying then that Democratic success at the polls happens when Republicans fail to live up to their own moral values, values which are missing in Democratic philosophy, but vital to civilized culture. I am saying also that for Democrats to win on their own they need to evolve a more integrative message that has, owing to its sophistication and understanding of human nature, appeals naturally to an evolving human consciousness.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
14,610
1,221
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Meh, I’m not so sure about that. Regardless it seems odd to think that the focus of Democrats have them on the road to electoral defeat almost exactly a month after they won one of the most crushing midterm victories in decades.
That wasn't anything close to a "crushing victory". It was an expected and completely normal mid term election.
Beyond that, the democrats do need something more than "orange man bad" as a platform. A moderate democrat with a real plan that stops illegal immigration would destroy Trump in 2020, even if the economy stays strong.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
24,604
4,177
126
Who has not been conditioned from birth? In the West, since the enlightenment, we have communally agreed that we want our culture to condition people to the notion of inalienable rights coupled with civic responsibilities and more recently that authority belongs to the people, and is not a divine right of kings. The big debate for Americans has been whether those inalienable rights are conferred by a god as described in some self proclaimed authoritarian religious text or are to be determined by science, analysis, and reason. Personally, I don't see how you can accuse the right alone of being conditioned when you and I both share many of the same suppositions. It is these suppositions, the assumptions we live by, how much evolution in consciousness they represent, that I find to be the important matter. And because we are in the middle of a culture war about these matters, I am suggesting that what we need is a new form of consciously evolved understanding that integrates what is positive about the stages we have gone through to arrive at something suitable for the best of our current understanding and further, as I believe, one that integrates what is good from the past rather than pushing it away as unfit and other.

Right now Democrats are winning because of the cock up the Republican party has become, but the fact remains that the moral values the Republican party plays on and only at times pretends to espouse will remain and continue to be an essential part of culture. I am saying then that Democratic success at the polls happens when Republicans fail to live up to their own moral values, values which are missing in Democratic philosophy, but vital to civilized culture. I am saying also that for Democrats to win on their own they need to evolve a more integrative message that has, owing to its sophistication and understanding of human nature, appeals naturally to an evolving human consciousness.
I agree we need to continue to evolve, and we do need to take the positive parts of every perspective. My mother always used to tell me "eat the chicken and spit out the bones." The major problem as I currently see it is that it is assumed that just because Democrats do not consider a certain moral value as important as a conservative might, it means that the Democrat does not care about that value at all. This is obviously false but it is the default mindset of a huge amount of Americans today. Take for example loyalty. I think loyalty is a very important moral value, but I think there are other moral values that override it in certain situations.

On top of that, as you noticed, a lot of Americans have a tendency apply way too much value to something like loyalty in any situation where they need it to score points for their team, even while devaluing it in other situations where it is inconvenient. Logic and reason cannot compete with this type of insanity.
 

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