IS the human fetus a parasite according to science? and other stuff.

[corwin]

LOL, zygote is a foreign object -- if not, why does it need to invade and hijack her body to survive, read the links.

You're either an idiot or a fool...not sure which, maybe both. You "might" be able to make an assertion that it's a mutant/mutation but it is by no stretch of the imagination foreign since it was always (at least partially) there and is part of the female biology.

 

[zombiemeathead]

So what if it is? Redefining it as a parasite doesn't make any difference.

i didn't redefine anything, i listed the fact that supports my positions that's all.

Are we going to wipe out humanity now because we all start out as little body hijackers?

i never suggested that, but if it makes you feel good, do it.

 

[corwin]

1. a) A parasite is defined as an organism of one species living in or on an organism of another species (a heterospecific relationship) and deriving its nourishment from the host (is metabolically dependent on the host). (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 7, 1973.)
b) A human embryo or fetus is an organism of one species (Homo sapiens) living in the uterine cavity of an organism of the same species (Homo sapiens) and deriving its nourishment from the mother (is metabolically dependent on the mother). This homospecific relationship is an obligatory dependent relationship, but not a parasitic relationship.

2. a) A parasite is an invading organism -- coming to parasitize the host from an outside source.
b) A human embryo or fetus is formed from a fertilized egg -- the egg coming from an inside source, being formed in the ovary of the mother from where it moves into the oviduct where it may be fertilized to form the zygote -- the first cell of the new human being.

3. a) A parasite is generally harmful to some degree to the host that is harboring the parasite.
b) A human embryo or fetus developing in the uterine cavity does not usually cause harm to the mother, although it may if proper nutrition and care is not maintained by the mother.

4. a) A parasite makes direct contact with the host's tissues, often holding on by either mouth parts, hooks or suckers to the tissues involved (intestinal lining, lungs, connective tissue, etc.).
b) A human embryo or fetus makes direct contact with the uterine lining of the mother for only a short period of time. It soon becomes isolated inside its own amniotic sac, and from that point on makes indirect contact with the mother only by way of the umbilical cord and placenta.

5. a) When a parasite invades host tissue, the host tissue will sometimes respond by forming a capsule (of connective tissue) to surround the parasite and cut it off from other surrounding tissue (examples would be Paragonimus westermani, lung fluke, or Oncocerca volvulus, a nematode worm causing cutaneous filariasis in the human).
b) When the human embryo or fetus attaches to and invades the lining tissue of the mother's uterus, the lining tissue responds by surrounding the human embryo and does not cut it off from the mother, but rather establishes a means of close contact (the placenta) between the mother and the new human being.

6. a) When a parasite invades a host, the host will usually respond by forming antibodies in response to the somatic antigens (molecules comprising the body of the parasite) or metabolic antigens (molecules secreted or excreted by the parasite) of the parasite. Parasitism usually involves an immunological response on the part of the host. (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 8.)
b) New evidence, presented by Beer and Billingham in their article, "The Embryo as a Transplant" (Scientific American, April, 1974), indicates that the mother does react to the presence of the embryo by producing humoral antibodies, but they suggest that the trophoblast -- the jacket of cells surrounding the embryo -- blocks the action of these antibodies and therefore the embryo or fetus is not rejected. This reaction is unique to the embryo-mother relationship.

7. a) A parasite is generally detrimental to the reproductive capacity of the invaded host. The host may be weakened, diseased or killed by the parasite, thus reducing or eliminating the host's capacity to reproduce.
b) A human embryo or fetus is absolutely essential to the reproductive capacity of the involved mother (and species). The mother is usually not weakened, diseased or killed by the presence of the embryo or fetus, but rather is fully tolerant of this offspring which must begin his or her life in this intimate and highly specialized relationship with the mother.

8. a) A parasite is an organism that, once it invades the definitive host, will usually remain with host for life (as long as it or the host survives).
b) A human embryo or fetus has a temporary association with the mother, remaining only a number of months in the uterus.

 

[zombiemeathead]

You're either an idiot or a fool...not sure which, maybe both. You "might" be able to make an assertion that it's a mutant/mutation but it is by no stretch of the imagination foreign since it was always (at least partially) there and is part of the female biology.

what does "foreign object" means?!

CREATIONIST, cancer is a foreign object that you inside right now, but your body kills it.

zygote is a half the woman's dna, and half the man's... that means it's forgein obejct that has to invade and hijack the woman's body to survive.

 

[zombiemeathead]

1. a) A parasite is defined as an organism of one species living in or on an organism of another species (a heterospecific relationship) and deriving its nourishment from the host (is metabolically dependent on the host). (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 7, 1973.)
b) A human embryo or fetus is an organism of one species (Homo sapiens) living in the uterine cavity of an organism of the same species (Homo sapiens) and deriving its nourishment from the mother (is metabolically dependent on the mother). This homospecific relationship is an obligatory dependent relationship, but not a parasitic relationship.

2. a) A parasite is an invading organism -- coming to parasitize the host from an outside source.
b) A human embryo or fetus is formed from a fertilized egg -- the egg coming from an inside source, being formed in the ovary of the mother from where it moves into the oviduct where it may be fertilized to form the zygote -- the first cell of the new human being.

3. a) A parasite is generally harmful to some degree to the host that is harboring the parasite.
b) A human embryo or fetus developing in the uterine cavity does not usually cause harm to the mother, although it may if proper nutrition and care is not maintained by the mother.

4. a) A parasite makes direct contact with the host's tissues, often holding on by either mouth parts, hooks or suckers to the tissues involved (intestinal lining, lungs, connective tissue, etc.).
b) A human embryo or fetus makes direct contact with the uterine lining of the mother for only a short period of time. It soon becomes isolated inside its own amniotic sac, and from that point on makes indirect contact with the mother only by way of the umbilical cord and placenta.

5. a) When a parasite invades host tissue, the host tissue will sometimes respond by forming a capsule (of connective tissue) to surround the parasite and cut it off from other surrounding tissue (examples would be Paragonimus westermani, lung fluke, or Oncocerca volvulus, a nematode worm causing cutaneous filariasis in the human).
b) When the human embryo or fetus attaches to and invades the lining tissue of the mother's uterus, the lining tissue responds by surrounding the human embryo and does not cut it off from the mother, but rather establishes a means of close contact (the placenta) between the mother and the new human being.

6. a) When a parasite invades a host, the host will usually respond by forming antibodies in response to the somatic antigens (molecules comprising the body of the parasite) or metabolic antigens (molecules secreted or excreted by the parasite) of the parasite. Parasitism usually involves an immunological response on the part of the host. (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 8.)
b) New evidence, presented by Beer and Billingham in their article, "The Embryo as a Transplant" (Scientific American, April, 1974), indicates that the mother does react to the presence of the embryo by producing humoral antibodies, but they suggest that the trophoblast -- the jacket of cells surrounding the embryo -- blocks the action of these antibodies and therefore the embryo or fetus is not rejected. This reaction is unique to the embryo-mother relationship.

7. a) A parasite is generally detrimental to the reproductive capacity of the invaded host. The host may be weakened, diseased or killed by the parasite, thus reducing or eliminating the host's capacity to reproduce.
b) A human embryo or fetus is absolutely essential to the reproductive capacity of the involved mother (and species). The mother is usually not weakened, diseased or killed by the presence of the embryo or fetus, but rather is fully tolerant of this offspring which must begin his or her life in this intimate and highly specialized relationship with the mother.

8. a) A parasite is an organism that, once it invades the definitive host, will usually remain with host for life (as long as it or the host survives).
b) A human embryo or fetus has a temporary association with the mother, remaining only a number of months in the uterus.

since you posted that pro-life-schizophrenic-fascist crap, it's going to take me a while to debunk it.

 

[corwin]

what does "foreign object" means?!

CREATIONIST, cancer is a foreign object that you inside right now, but your body kills it.

zygote is a half the woman's dna, and half the man's... that means it's forgein obejct that has to invade and hijack the woman's body to survive.

since you posted that pro-life-schizophrenic-fascist crap, it's going to take me a while to debunk it.

So...idiot it is

 

[zinfamous]

It is, Lord Science convinced you otherwise.

surely, you're not serious?

 

[zinfamous]

what does "foreign object" means?!

CREATIONIST, cancer is a foreign object that you inside right now, but your body kills it.

zygote is a half the woman's dna, and half the man's... that means it's forgein obejct that has to invade and hijack the woman's body to survive.

bro--cancer is very much your own cells. It is not, in any scientific definition, a foreign object.

this is the main reason that it is such a dastardly disease. it is far less foreign than is a zygote--the growth of which does trigger a natural response to suppress the female's immune system, lest it attack and kill the new parasitic zygote.

 

[zinfamous]

1. a) A parasite is defined as an organism of one species living in or on an organism of another species (a heterospecific relationship) and deriving its nourishment from the host (is metabolically dependent on the host). (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 7, 1973.)
b) A human embryo or fetus is an organism of one species (Homo sapiens) living in the uterine cavity of an organism of the same species (Homo sapiens) and deriving its nourishment from the mother (is metabolically dependent on the mother). This homospecific relationship is an obligatory dependent relationship, but not a parasitic relationship.

2. a) A parasite is an invading organism -- coming to parasitize the host from an outside source.
b) A human embryo or fetus is formed from a fertilized egg -- the egg coming from an inside source, being formed in the ovary of the mother from where it moves into the oviduct where it may be fertilized to form the zygote -- the first cell of the new human being.

3. a) A parasite is generally harmful to some degree to the host that is harboring the parasite.
b) A human embryo or fetus developing in the uterine cavity does not usually cause harm to the mother, although it may if proper nutrition and care is not maintained by the mother.

4. a) A parasite makes direct contact with the host's tissues, often holding on by either mouth parts, hooks or suckers to the tissues involved (intestinal lining, lungs, connective tissue, etc.).
b) A human embryo or fetus makes direct contact with the uterine lining of the mother for only a short period of time. It soon becomes isolated inside its own amniotic sac, and from that point on makes indirect contact with the mother only by way of the umbilical cord and placenta.

5. a) When a parasite invades host tissue, the host tissue will sometimes respond by forming a capsule (of connective tissue) to surround the parasite and cut it off from other surrounding tissue (examples would be Paragonimus westermani, lung fluke, or Oncocerca volvulus, a nematode worm causing cutaneous filariasis in the human).
b) When the human embryo or fetus attaches to and invades the lining tissue of the mother's uterus, the lining tissue responds by surrounding the human embryo and does not cut it off from the mother, but rather establishes a means of close contact (the placenta) between the mother and the new human being.

6. a) When a parasite invades a host, the host will usually respond by forming antibodies in response to the somatic antigens (molecules comprising the body of the parasite) or metabolic antigens (molecules secreted or excreted by the parasite) of the parasite. Parasitism usually involves an immunological response on the part of the host. (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 8.)
b) New evidence, presented by Beer and Billingham in their article, "The Embryo as a Transplant" (Scientific American, April, 1974), indicates that the mother does react to the presence of the embryo by producing humoral antibodies, but they suggest that the trophoblast -- the jacket of cells surrounding the embryo -- blocks the action of these antibodies and therefore the embryo or fetus is not rejected. This reaction is unique to the embryo-mother relationship.

7. a) A parasite is generally detrimental to the reproductive capacity of the invaded host. The host may be weakened, diseased or killed by the parasite, thus reducing or eliminating the host's capacity to reproduce.
b) A human embryo or fetus is absolutely essential to the reproductive capacity of the involved mother (and species). The mother is usually not weakened, diseased or killed by the presence of the embryo or fetus, but rather is fully tolerant of this offspring which must begin his or her life in this intimate and highly specialized relationship with the mother.

8. a) A parasite is an organism that, once it invades the definitive host, will usually remain with host for life (as long as it or the host survives).
b) A human embryo or fetus has a temporary association with the mother, remaining only a number of months in the uterus.

ah, so this is one of those times when it's convenient enough to use science for your argument, eh?

..but not when you want to tackle the definition of life?

I see.

 

[DominionSeraph]

The woman's body was invaded by an army of foreign self-mobile cells, one of which infused one of her cells with foreign genetic material, resulting in an immediate reaction wherein the cell immediately began to undergo rapid division. The new cells eventually underwent very dramatic shifts in their functionality and arrangement, leading to a group of cells that bears no resemblance to either of the progenitors.

Foreign invasion force, genetic manipulation, and rapid cellular growth.
Freaky stuff.

:awe:

:biggrin:

 

[zinfamous]

Hmm...pretty sure a parasite is a FOREIGN organism invading a body, since a fetus is/was a part of the body to begin with and just mutates that would preclude it from being a parasite.

You on the other hand seem like you might fit that title...

wait...


what?

:hmm:

 

[zombiemeathead]

bro--cancer is very much your own cells. It is not, in any scientific definition, a foreign object.

this is the main reason that it is such a dastardly disease. it is far less foreign than is a zygote--the growth of which does trigger a natural response to suppress the female's immune system, lest it attack and kill the new parasitic zygote.

yeah, i always thought cancer is a foreign object because it's corrupted dna, it's a rogue cell.

 

[gevorg]

humanity is a parasite to Earth

the host cannot take it anymore and needs to vomit, rinse, and refresh

 

[zinfamous]

yeah, i always thought cancer is a foreign object because it's corrupted dna, it's a rogue cell.

usually, "bad cells" trigger a response for your immune system to kill those cells. This is very normal, happens all the time, and considering the rate at which this occurs throughout an individual's lifetime, is a remarkably efficient and well-functioning system, upwards of 98% success, or so.

when cancer "happens," those bad cells are able to avoid such detection (many parts of this problem remain a mystery), and so are not destroyed.

it's not that such "properly functioning" bad cells become foreign objects, it's that they are soon identified by the body as foreign objects, such that they can be processed correctly.

 

[corwin]

ah, so this is one of those times when it's convenient enough to use science for your argument, eh?

..but not when you want to tackle the definition of life?

I see.

Who's avoiding science when defining life again?

wait...


what?

Yeah, bad choice of words...nm

 

[zombiemeathead]

ah, so this is one of those times when it's convenient enough to use science for your argument, eh?

..but not when you want to tackle the definition of life?

I see.

it's wrong, i just have to type the post to prove it.

it's totally omits that conspecific relationships, which are parasitic twin and the woman/fetus relationships.

"Conspecificity is a concept in biology. Two or more individual organisms, populations, or taxa are conspecific if they belong to the same species.[1]
Where different species can interbreed and their gametes compete, the conspecific gametes take precedence over heterospecific gametes. This is known as conspecific sperm precedence or conspecific pollen precedence in plants."




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspecificity

it's going to take a while to debunk that whole page.

 

[zombiemeathead]

humanity is a parasite to Earth

the host cannot take it anymore and needs to vomit, rinse, and refresh

so you follow the philosophy of agent smith?

 

[corwin]

it's wrong, i just have to type the post to prove it.

it's totally omits that conspecific relationships, which are parasitic twin and the woman/fetus relationships.

"Conspecificity is a concept in biology. Two or more individual organisms, populations, or taxa are conspecific if they belong to the same species.[1]
Where different species can interbreed and their gametes compete, the conspecific gametes take precedence over heterospecific gametes. This is known as conspecific sperm precedence or conspecific pollen precedence in plants."




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspecificity

it's going to take a while to debunk that whole page.

Take your time meathead

I'm pro-choice btw and sometimes wish certain parents had made a different one:sneaky:

 

[zinfamous]

Who's avoiding science when defining life again?

it was more of a royal "you."

--the general tactic of fundies and religio-types to bash and ignore science when facts conflict with religious history (evolution) and morality (abortion and life), yet turn to the very same fundamental theories of science when they need it for medicine (evolution) and to support various arguments (here--when trying to argue about parasites, but conveniently ignoring the salient terms).

again, hilarious.

bravo.

 

[Gooberlx2]

The woman's body was invaded by an army of foreign self-mobile cells, one of which infused one of her cells with foreign genetic material, resulting in an immediate reaction wherein the cell immediately began to undergo rapid division. The new cells eventually underwent very dramatic shifts in their functionality and arrangement, leading to a group of cells that bears no resemblance to either of the progenitors.

...so a baby is a cancer caused by a pathogen?! ...like HPV. A baby is a cancer resulting from an STD!

 

[momeNt]

surely, you're not serious?

 

[Ronstang]

I've long said it was a parasite.

I have been saying the same thing for over 30 years that by the biological definition of a parasite a fetus is one. For that reason I have never had a problem with abortions. I am also about as conservative as you can get, I am just not religious.

 

[momeNt]

I have been saying the same thing for over 30 years that by the biological definition of a parasite a fetus is one. For that reason I have never had a problem with abortions. I am also about as conservative as you can get, I am just not religious.

Yea, so you've been wrong for over 30 years. There are better arguments than saying they are parasites.

Social parasites on the other hand (welfare recipients) are a real problem though.

 

[zombiemeathead]

Evolution is moot, but not for the reason you listed. In almost all cases, the woman participates freely in the creation of said zygote. It doesn't fertilize itself.

that's stupid, sex has nothing to do with the zygote having to invade and hijack her body.

 

[zombiemeathead]

Yea, so you've been wrong for over 30 years. There are better arguments than saying they are parasites.

actually, he is right...fetuses are parasites.

Social parasites on the other hand (welfare recipients) are a real problem though.

not, really, the woman's body is nature and the fetus being a parasite is science related and welfare is a social construct, and it's your opinion of them being parasites or not.