Is the Hammer Series a Final Swan Song for AMD??

LeeTJ

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2003
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I just don't see HOW AMD can possible keep up with what intel has coming up.

Prescott looks good, could be Pentium 5, Tejas not much is known about, but will be released 6 months after Prescott, then the one after Tejas, i'm thinking Intel might finally say good bye to the X86 instruction set.

Is there any chance AMD can keep up??

 

McCarthy

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Should AMD try to keep up?

No, really. Look at the Centrino iNTEL rolled out. To me that's impressive. Doesn't have the same long future as the P4 architecture as I understand from some overview I read, but it works great today. Tomorrow design something else.

I'm just asking, should they keep up - or maybe I should ask, how do you mean keep up? To me it seems more of a shortcoming of AMD to not be coming up with creative solutions like the Centrino than falling behind on the top end of the desktop market. Five years from now I'll probably still be using a 'biege box computer' (talking traditional design, not actual color or windows or steel vs aluminum case), but I wonder how many others will. Power savings, multimedia tweaking, whatever...there's more to a CPU than speed. If AMD came out with a socket A CPU that was worse than a 486 in Quake, but was specially tuned to mpeg encoding and faster than a P4 8ghz I'd buy it in a heartbeat. And vica versa for others. Maybe they should be looking to make their CPUs more specialized? By concentrating on the server market the Opteron seems to be off to a good start.

Not phrasing this right, but wanted to open up thinking into 'what should they be keeping up with' rather than 'how many FPS in Doom3 will X CPU do'.

--Mc
 

LeeTJ

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2003
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Originally posted by: McCarthy
Should AMD try to keep up?

No, really. Look at the Centrino iNTEL rolled out. To me that's impressive. Doesn't have the same long future as the P4 architecture as I understand from some overview I read, but it works great today. Tomorrow design something else.

I'm just asking, should they keep up - or maybe I should ask, how do you mean keep up? To me it seems more of a shortcoming of AMD to not be coming up with creative solutions like the Centrino than falling behind on the top end of the desktop market. Five years from now I'll probably still be using a 'biege box computer' (talking traditional design, not actual color or windows or steel vs aluminum case), but I wonder how many others will. Power savings, multimedia tweaking, whatever...there's more to a CPU than speed. If AMD came out with a socket A CPU that was worse than a 486 in Quake, but was specially tuned to mpeg encoding and faster than a P4 8ghz I'd buy it in a heartbeat. And vica versa for others. Maybe they should be looking to make their CPUs more specialized? By concentrating on the server market the Opteron seems to be off to a good start.

Not phrasing this right, but wanted to open up thinking into 'what should they be keeping up with' rather than 'how many FPS in Doom3 will X CPU do'.

--Mc

good point.

your question seems to be based on the assumption that current levels of processing are MORE than adequate. If your talking daily Word Processing, Spreadsheets, Browsing etc, yes. mb so.

but as more power becomes available applications for that power is utilized.
 

t0mmyb0y

Senior member
Jun 26, 2001
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PLEASE DO NOT POST INTEL VS AMD THREADS, HERE.

rolleye.gif
 

McCarthy

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Yes, for your typical office PC, 3.06ghz is more than adequate. That's current available tech so if intel and amd both stopped making faster chips today that market wouldn't be affected for a long time.

But I didn't mean that I think current CPUs are more than adequate in a more general sense. Quite the contrary. Like that mpeg example, even as fast as CPUs are today video encoding takes time. Just nearing realtime for some encoding methods, well past realtime for others. But when I encoded my first mp3 it took 5 hours. Now it takes, literally, about 5 seconds.

At the time when it would take me 5 hours to encode a mp3 there were already DirectTV sat receivers covered with dust from sitting on top of TVs. MPEG2 decoding on the fly at a level that PCs didn't see for some time after when the Hollywood DVD decoder boards came along. Now we can watch DVDs on our computers without them stuttering without specialized decoders, the CPUs are fast enough. But even that took till what, P3-500 and faster? With DivX at high res with filters maxed a CPU of over a ghz is needed. This even after MMX has become standard, MMX2, SSE, SSE2, etc.

So decoding we're ok for as long as your CPU is fairly new. But what about encoding on the fly? Oh sure, you can, at pitiful quality. How come we can't get the same quality on the fly with a 2700+ and a dumb caputure device as a much slower CPU with a mpeg encoder caputure device can do? (argue here whether we can or not today, might be close)

Because the chips on that mpeg2 card just know how to do one thing. They can't run MS Word. They're of no use in the business style computer. But what about a CPU specificly tuned towards media encoding? Is there a market? Is it technically feasible?

In the graphics card arena we see speeds coming up. But more important than the speed increases to game play are the changes to architecture. Pixel shaders, vertex shaders, T&L units, all that stuff I just see talked about and don't really care to read what it means. Games vary a lot from one to another, but under some set of standards (DX/OGL) vastly different hardware (ATI/nVidia/intel/Trident/etc) manages to do the same thing, but at different performance levels. Some have better fillrate, which benefits one type of gaming. Some have something else that benefits another.

We've seen the attempts made with CPUs to balance. Back to the MMX and other instruction sets, the goal is to make the CPU perform better in multimedia tasks without having to make the entire unit faster. Add an instruction set to a 200mhz CPU and make it perform at the same level it'd take that same CPU 800mhz to attain without it. Well, I'm saying that approach is a smart one. Look at the Pentium-M 1.6ghz, it's Content Creation score was way below a P4-1.6, but in the General Usage benchmark it tops a P4-2.66, and in gaming it scores extremely well. And that was comparing notebooks to a coal burning full bore desktop.

That's what I'm looking at. P4 is a wonderful CPU and it's architecture will allow it to keep going for quite a bit more. But when I see a low power chip of half the mhz doing some tasks even faster I'm impressed. When I see that same chip do other tasks half as fast I'm not dissapointed in the least. I'm hoping it sparks more new designs, new ways of thinking about the tasks and solutions to the CPU role.

 

Macro2

Diamond Member
May 20, 2000
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K9 is in the works.

Actually now it's Intel that has to play catch up.

Newegg's poll says 66% to 33% that AMD makes better chips over Intel.
 

MrChad

Lifer
Aug 22, 2001
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That's what I'm looking at. P4 is a wonderful CPU and it's architecture will allow it to keep going for quite a bit more. But when I see a low power chip of half the mhz doing some tasks even faster I'm impressed. When I see that same chip do other tasks half as fast I'm not dissapointed in the least. I'm hoping it sparks more new designs, new ways of thinking about the tasks and solutions to the CPU role.

It seems like the industry is still pushing technology in the direction of "faster is better." I would love to see manufacturers take the current state of the art and:

  • Make it quiet (or silent)
  • Make it run cool
  • Make it boot instantly
  • Make it more reliable
  • Make it use less energy
  • Make it smaller

There will still be users that require faster hardware for more specialized tasks. But the majority of users already have computers that are fast enough. Give them a different incentive to upgrade.
 

Lynx516

Senior member
Apr 20, 2003
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Originally posted by: LeeTJ
I just don't see HOW AMD can possible keep up with what intel has coming up.

Prescott looks good, could be Pentium 5, Tejas not much is known about, but will be released 6 months after Prescott, then the one after Tejas, i'm thinking Intel might finally say good bye to the X86 instruction set.

Is there any chance AMD can keep up??

Intel cannot say good bye to the x86 ISA for desktops. It would reduce the software market base for the CPU to 0. No one would buy it as it woudl mean you woudl have to all buy new software. In the desktop relm it doesnt look like AMD will beat intel's performance unless they get teh Clawhammer to about 2.3-2.5Ghz (then it woudl rock). However the Opteron is owning Intel's chips in servers apps. It is godly for webservers and file servers. And if they can ramp it up to about 2.2Ghz then it would own for Workstations (probably) I think AMD's future is rosy. They are on course to break even this quarter.
 

LikeLinus

Lifer
Jul 25, 2001
11,518
670
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Originally posted by: Macro2
K9 is in the works.

Actually now it's Intel that has to play catch up.

Newegg's poll says 66% to 33% that AMD makes better chips over Intel.

You're joking right? Please tell me you don't honestly think that AMD is ahead of Intel.
 

McCarthy

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Newegg poll, blah. That's too close to the kind of discussion the mods have been trying to prevent I think.

Maybe need a different thread to post in about it, but I'm not talking about current chips so much as the future (which is why I jumped in this one) Anyone know what the K9's design goals are? Faster on a pretty much linear scale with the Athlon in all areas or attempting to increase in specific areas? Or for that matter know what intel's CPU philosophy for the next 10 years is?

I'm hoping 10 years from now I don't have a CPU pumping out 1800w with a heatsink the size of a basketball on top. That's why keeping up alone doesn't seem to be a worthy goal.
 

Malladine

Diamond Member
Mar 31, 2003
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People want to believe AMD is superior because many see Intel as a MS type giant. Others just tend to back the underdog, which is (I think) why I tend to choose AMD :p

 

LeeTJ

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2003
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Originally posted by: t0mmyb0y
PLEASE DO NOT POST INTEL VS AMD THREADS, HERE.

rolleye.gif

other than you, most everyone else responded intelligently. the mods haven't seen fit to lock this thread as it ISN'T an Intel vs AMD thread but more a discussion about the future of BOTH.

next time, read, comprehend THEN reply.
 

Ilmater

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2002
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Originally posted by: LeeTJ
Originally posted by: t0mmyb0y
PLEASE DO NOT POST INTEL VS AMD THREADS, HERE.

rolleye.gif

other than you, most everyone else responded intelligently. the mods haven't seen fit to lock this thread as it ISN'T an Intel vs AMD thread but more a discussion about the future of BOTH.

next time, read, comprehend THEN reply.
I'm doing all you suggest, and it still sounds like an AMD vs. Intel thread to me. I understand it's slightly different, but it's only a matter of time before it degrades into that. As far as the "most everyone else responded intelligently" comment, it doesn't matter. Many people in AMD vs. Intel threads have intelligent things to say.

Anyway, on the current subject, AMD is going to try the 64-bit thing. If its 32-bit performance is at least on par with what Intel puts out and its 64-bit performance is better, then there's no reason to believe that it wouldn't do well.

As for Intel's processors, there's nothing in Prescott or Tejas (as far as anyone knows) that's so revolutionary as to destroy anyone. You, yourself, admitted you don't know what's going on. As for a new instruction set, AMD could probably adopt it in their new processors. In fact, I'm willing to bet that they could do it for free without any liscencing fees (anti-trust you know).

There's no reason to believe, current-day, that AMD is "done." End of discussion. Anything further is PURE speculation based on NO facts. No offense to the creator, but let the post die before the mods lock it.
 

Whitedog

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 1999
3,656
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Originally posted by: Malladine
People want to believe AMD is superior because many see Intel as a MS type giant. Others just tend to back the underdog, which is (I think) why I tend to choose AMD :p
Pound for Pound, AMD ?Chips? romp on Intel?s. We all know that. But that doesn?t make AMD ?the company? superior now does it. Both have techno advantages over the other.

Both companies are ?moving forward? at a respectable pace? it?s just that neither companies are moving in the ?same direction?

Way back when both companies were relatively making the same chips (K5 and P54c) it was easy to say, ?who?s better?. I mean you could plop one of those chips in a standard Socket7 mobo and rock. The computer didn?t care or know the difference.

Now-a-days, both companies are going in completely different directions. Who?s to say who?s on the right track???

Nothing is going to set either company apart as being King and Pawn. That's the beauty of it. :D

 

Krk3561

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2002
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Originally posted by: Macro2
K9 is in the works.

Actually now it's Intel that has to play catch up.

Newegg's poll says 66% to 33% that AMD makes better chips over Intel.

Too bad the average joe would never buy AMD. The enthusiast market is so small it doesnt have much of an impact...

Not matter what chip is better *cough*Intel*cought* ;), the average consumer will go with the name he trusts: Intel
 

krackato

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Aug 10, 2000
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I'm sorry, but the enthusiast market does have an impact. Not only do we buy more computers than the average person, but when people come to asking us what to buy, they listen to us and buy what we tell them. If I say AMD makes great chips, you know, the average joe is going to believe me. Not to mention, it doesn't really matter WTF you buy right now for the average joe. Do you really think he's going to be able to tell the difference between an Intel and an AMD chip (noise not withstanding).

That being said, it sure would be a lot easier to recommend AMD if Dell would start building boxes with AMD chipsets. They're the only ones I really feel comfortable recommending when buying a rig from a manufacturer.

I'm not anti-Intel (everyone knows the P4 is superior when it comes to content creation), but AMD makes good products. And competition is good for everyone. So any sign of fanboyism for AMD is really just a desire to see faster chips for less money. It's really more about self-interest than anything.
 

Krk3561

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2002
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Originally posted by: krackato
I'm sorry, but the enthusiast market does have an impact. Not only do we buy more computers than the average person, but when people come to asking us what to buy, they listen to us and buy what we tell them. If I say AMD makes great chips, you know, the average joe is going to believe me. Not to mention, it doesn't really matter WTF you buy right now for the average joe. Do you really think he's going to be able to tell the difference between an Intel and an AMD chip (noise not withstanding).

That being said, it sure would be a lot easier to recommend AMD if Dell would start building boxes with AMD chipsets. They're the only ones I really feel comfortable recommending when buying a rig from a manufacturer.

I'm not anti-Intel (everyone knows the P4 is superior when it comes to content creation), but AMD makes good products. And competition is good for everyone. So any sign of fanboyism for AMD is really just a desire to see faster chips for less money. It's really more about self-interest than anything.

Too bad there are far more average comsumers than enthusiasts. Its not the quality of the chip that matters, it marketing and having a brand name that associated with quality, stability, and performance. If people were buying AMD, why would their market share be slipping. As for the server and enterprise market, the Operton will fail because its not a tested platform nor do the people overseeing the orders trust AMD over Intel.
 

dullard

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May 21, 2001
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In my opinion, AMD is going to be on their last leg if the transition to 0.09 micron doesn't fare well. Until then, AMD and Intel will have chips with nearly the same performance and nearly the same cost (anything 2500+ and above that is).

1) Both AMD and Intel are pretty stagnant as far as clock speed goes. Its been nearly 7 months since Intel last had a bump in clock speed. AMD is having tons of difficulty getting much past the 2.0 GHz mark (the Athlon stalled for quite some time just below 2.0 GHz, with Barton they had to decrease the clock speed on their top chip, and Opteron is nowhere near 2.0 GHz. I don't see any major changes as long as we are at 0.13 microns. I don't see Prescott going much past 3.4 GHz, and I don't see the Athlon 64 going past 2.2 GHz either. Sure there are a few performance boosts without clockspeed boosts, but they will be dramatically behind the common alteration of Moore's law this year (clock speed doubling every 18 months).

2) In my opinion due to heat issues, this stalling will occur until they transition to 0.09 microns. However 0.09 microns is a bigger jump than the last two transitions (0.25 to 0.18 was a 28% drop, 0.18 to 0.13 was a 27.8% drop, but 0.13 to 0.09 is a 30.8% drop). Plus each transition gets harder and harder. Thus I have a feeling that Intel will get to 0.09 microns far before AMD does (considering how far behind AMD was in getting to 0.13 microns).

3) Therefore if AMD struggles at 0.09 microns and Intel succeeds, then Intel will be much less bothered by heat for quite some time. And thus Intel can dramatically increase the clockspeed. Add in the extra cache, new instructions, hyperthreading 2, etc and I don't see that AMD can keep up with Intel if AMD is stuck at 0.13 microns. Thus early next year, Intel will have a major advantage.

4) With AMD's lack of positive cash flow, I don't know if they can handle such an event in 2004. Only then does AMD have to worry. It isn't that Hammer is the problem, but since few customers will need or want the initial Hammers, it isn't helping.

5) Of course if AMD smoothly transitions to 0.09 microns, then we will be back at a tie - with AMD limping along (money wise) like they have for years.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
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Intel has the money and name recognition.

Opteron: If you're buying servers from a major vendor, like Dell, you can like Opterons all you want, but you aren't getting them, because your company doesn't want to deal with lower tier vendors. If you are able to buy from lower-tier vendors, and/or have tasks with which the Opteron excels, you'll buy it. IIRC, the Athlon MPs have around 8% of low-end servers...not much, but respectable given how much more dominated servers are by top-tier vendors, given that taking chances is usually not an option. I think the Opteron will succeed, not because Dell and the like may adopt it or not, but because AMD is starting at their previous MP niche and moving up from that. It may end up able to take on the Itanium...but it will suceed or fail by being able to take on a relatively cheap dual Xeon box whining away in a dusty rack. Not that a few supercomputer deals would hurt them...

Athlon64: This is more iffy. I really don't see why they don't just have it all on the Opteron's socket and just have the Athlon64 use fewer pins--excellent Duron-like solution. While AMD hasn't released much more, neither has Intel. However, check the sigs here and at amdmb's forums. quite a few people above the 2800+ speed with default Vcore. The chips are getting there...it may just be better for AMD to get theirs out just after Intel's and one-up them (unless you're doing content creation, of course).

I think AMD will make it. How many of us thought that the Socket-A was almost dead when it was reaching the high end of Palomino speeds? Yet it is still going. 600MHz to 2250Mhz (and more overclocking) on a single platform is pretty good. Since the first slot Athlon, AMD has been able to keep up with Intel, even if by a hair. I think they'll be able to keep up that "almost winning" streak.
 

Cosmic_Horror

Golden Member
Oct 10, 1999
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I think both companies will be around for a while longer. Regardless of technology, it all comes down to the bottom line at the end of the day. If a company is make a profit it will survive in the market place.

Technology wise, intel is working with hyper-threading, amd is going with a 64bit cpu. Both are looking to make the cpu do more work, just by a different approach.
 

kazeakuma

Golden Member
Feb 13, 2001
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This thread is actually quite a good read :)

I do think that while AMD is not in immediate danger, their future could be very rocky if the Hammer doesn't go well for them. AMD desperately need to turn a profit more regularly to build up their cash reserves again. From memory much of their reserves are gone, which is not a good situation to be in, because if the Hammer doesn't help turn around that bottom line AMD are in serious trouble.

They also still have hurdles with the Hammer. It's a wonderful chip but as Cerb pointed out, AMD suffer from a lack of Tier One vendors. The corporate market is where it's at, I think AMD's acceptance there will help turn them round and give them something they haven't had before. Corporate acceptance. It's actually quite strange, but now that I think about it, where I work we have purchased approx. 50 pcs in the last year. Not one AMD, in fact we never even got quoted AMD. I think OEMs tend to shovel Intel chips in corporate gear because of the reluctance (still!) of the corporate market to use AMD.

Dullard, I thought the Prescott was going to top out around 4ghz? I remember reading that a while ago, but then I haven't kep up with any late changes.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,120
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Originally posted by: kazeakuma
Dullard, I thought the Prescott was going to top out around 4ghz? I remember reading that a while ago, but then I haven't kep up with any late changes.
I too have been slacking off on reading articles lately (too much classwork and research work). But the last I heard, Prescott may top around 4 GHz but that is after the shrink to 0.09 microns. Basically Prescott was to be their guinea pig for 0.09 microns before their next processor comes out. If the rumors have changed in the last couple of months, I'm sorry. But still I don't see much past 3.4 GHz anytime soon. Intel may take a full year to go from 3.06 GHz to 3.4 GHz...

 

bluemax

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2000
7,182
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Originally posted by: MrChad
That's what I'm looking at. P4 is a wonderful CPU and it's architecture will allow it to keep going for quite a bit more. But when I see a low power chip of half the mhz doing some tasks even faster I'm impressed. When I see that same chip do other tasks half as fast I'm not dissapointed in the least. I'm hoping it sparks more new designs, new ways of thinking about the tasks and solutions to the CPU role.

It seems like the industry is still pushing technology in the direction of "faster is better." I would love to see manufacturers take the current state of the art and:

  • Make it quiet (or silent)
  • Make it run cool
  • Make it boot instantly
  • Make it more reliable
  • Make it use less energy
  • Make it smaller

I'm with YOU! :D