Is the Fatkins fad finally dying?

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Atkins isn't about eating less. That is the very first thing you learn, so I guess you have zero knowledge of the diet. You can eat as much as you want, as long as it has no carbs.

That's what the diet says, but dullard isn't wrong about it being eating less. When you're brutally limited on food choices you DO end up eating less. The diet may say you can eat 15 eggs and 12 hamburger patties for dinner, but it's disgusting, so the end result is less calories.

I understand the benefits of ketosis, but I am not sure how many people ever actually achieve that state.

There is more to the diet. The ketosis part is only the first step of a much longer process.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Chiropteran
Atkins isn't about eating less. That is the very first thing you learn, so I guess you have zero knowledge of the diet. You can eat as much as you want, as long as it has no carbs.

Sadly, you are the one with more to learn. Atkins is great in the first ~6 months since you can TRY to eat as much as you want. However, most people physically don't eat more. In fact, studies show people eat less mass and less calories when on Atkins. The amount of weight they lose is proportional to how much less they eat.

Atkins is a success since people are free to eat until they are full. However, you get full very quickly on a high protein diet and thus you eat less (also as said above, it is just less appetizing after a while so you eat less). Eat less and you digest less. Digest less and you lose weight. Then when your body get accustomed to the change, that eat less part goes away. You return to your normal consumption. Eat more (than you did during the first few months) and you digest more. Digest more and the weight comes back.

 

[Landroval]

The following is part of a transcript from a BBC report examining the results of several scientific studies trying to determine HOW Atkins actually contributes to weight loss.

*****

NARRATOR: The Atkins camp disputes all these complications. With no long term studies focussed on the diet none can be proven. But beyond all that there was still one serious unanswered question. No one had yet systematically looked at how the Atkins diet actually worked. So late last year Horizon commissioned a scientific investigation in to whether Dr Atkins's theories of how calories are lost on his diet were real or just wishful thinking. The study took place at Kansas University. Somewhere on this sprawling campus a man was locked inside a tiny room. He was there for a whole day and night. His identical twin was subjected to the same treatment. They had both donated their bodies to one of the first attempts to find evidence that you really do lose more calories than normal on the Atkins diet. The team behind this unique study was headed by Joe Donnelly.

Prof JOSEPH DONNELLY: The concept is very interesting, it's very controversial, in science it's very nice to be there. It's nice to do something that isn't boring, there are millions of people interested in Atkins, really right, wrong or indifferent. So we're very interested and eager to see the results.

NARRATOR: For two weeks one of the twins was put on the high fat, high protein Atkins diet. While the other was put on the conventional low fat diet. They were then locked inside this sealed chamber. By measuring how much oxygen they breathed in and out the computers could calculate how quickly their bodies were burning fuel. The hope was that this would begin to answer whether more calories are worked off on the Atkins diet by breaking down fats and proteins. Donnelly also tested Dr Atkins's theory of calories lost as ketones down the toilet. The twins had to donate their bodily fluids for the duration of their internment.

Prof JOSEPH DONNELLY: We've collected a litre and a half of urine at each collection period. They'll be analysed for urinary ketones and then we will know how many calories are lost in the urine. NARRATOR: If Dr Atkins's theories were right the twin on the Atkins diet should be losing significantly more calories than the twin on low fat. In the morning the twins were released and the results were in. To prove you burn off significantly more calories breaking down the Atkins diet researchers expected the twin on Atkins to have lost at least a hundred calories more than the twin on low fat. And the Atkins dieter did lose some more calories this way, but a total of just twenty two.

Prof JOSEPH DONNELLY: Twenty two calories is too small to suggest that there really is anything going on.

NARRATOR: In other words burning fats and proteins appeared to take up hardly any more energy than burning carbohydrates. It seemed Dr Atkins's theory that you lose calories when breaking down his diet might be wrong. Next the researchers looked to see whether any calories were lost as ketones in the urine. The twin on the Atkins diet had lost less than a single calorie more than his brother on low fat.

Prof JOSEPH DONNELLY: This is not enough to suggest that this particular demonstration showed a difference.

NARRATOR: It seemed being in ketosis made barely any difference at all. Again Dr Atkins's theory appeared to be wrong. This came as little surprise to Donnelly.

Prof JOSEPH DONNELLY: I think the results are what we expected. There's no difference between the two diets.

NARRATOR: The research is at a very early stage, and not all studies agree. But in Donnelly's first examination of how the Atkins diet works proof of Dr Atkins's theories remains elusive. This leaves a mystery at the heart of the Atkins debate. People shed weight on this apparently limitless calorie diet. If calories aren't lost through ketosis or breaking down food what is happening to them? Clues to the likely answer came from the world's largest dieting study that took place in Britain last year.

JUDGE: Few have confessed to the charge of being overweight.

NARRATOR: Behind the scenes of a popular television series a groundbreaking study put four famous diets on trial. Only now are the full results of that study emerging. Horizon is the first to reveal this research. Three of the diets were conventional low fat, low calories diets. Weight Watchers, Slim-Fast and Rosemary Conley. The fourth was of course the Atkins diet. One of the most important parts of the study was that the dieters kept detailed diaries of what they ate. Only now have these diaries been examined. Joe Milward is an expert in nutrition and was in charge of analysing the data.

Prof JOE MILWARD: We had four groups with sixty in each, so that's two hundred and forty people. And we had planned to do three diaries. So that's more than six hundred diaries all together.

NARRATOR: All four diets performed similarly when it came to weight loss.

WOMAN BEING WEIGHED: Yes, yes,

WOMAN BEING WEIGHED: Wow.

NARRATOR: There was no mystery why the low fat, low calorie dieters were losing weight.

WOMAN BEING WEIGHED: Yes.

NARRATOR: They were eating fewer calories than normal. The puzzle was why was the Atkins diet just as effective? But when the researchers turned their attention to the Atkins diet diaries something intriguing began to emerge. The diaries showed that even though they could eat as much as they liked they were actually eating as few calories as the low calorie dieters.

Prof JOE MILWARD: They were losing weight because they were eating less calories. In exactly the same way as those going to the slimming clubs on their low fat diets were losing weight because they had reduced their calorie intakes. It was a simple matter of if you eat fewer calories you lose weight.

NARRATOR: So for all the talk of limitless calories the diaries actually showed the Atkins dieters were eating less than they would normally. For scientists this poses a whole new mystery. Why on earth should people who are allowed to eat all the calories they want choose not to? The suggestion is that the Atkins diet must influence one of our most fundamental instincts, appetite.

NARRATOR: This may be the secret to the Atkins diet. It works by controlling appetite. But what is it about the diet that kills hunger? Dr Atkins believed that it was due to cutting carbohydrates, but as yet evidence for this theory is so far inconclusive. There may be another reason. The Atkins diet is famous for its fat. Dr Atkins said you could eat as much of it as you like. Is it possible that fat could be suppressing appetite? To find out Susan Jebb and her team decided to run an experiment. All the meals in the study looked exactly the same, but there was a big difference. Half the food had liberal quantities of fat secretly added to it.

Dr SUSAN JEBB: We used things like spaghetti bolognaise or mousses so that you could because easily disguise the fat content of the food.

NARRATOR: None of the volunteers knew which type of food they were getting. But half of them were eating low fat meals, and half were eating high fat meals.

Dr SUSAN JEBB: What we told them is they could eat as much or as little as they wanted and they simply just had to ask when they wanted more food.

NARRATOR: If fat was the magic ingredient that switches appetite off, then the men eating the high fat food would fewer calories than normal to feel full. After four hundred and eighty six meals the results were clear. The fat was having the exact opposite effect. The men on the high fat food needed more calories to satisfy their appetite. They were actually overeating.

Dr SUSAN JEBB: What we conclude from that is that fat doesn't make people feel full. It doesn't trigger the sense of fullness and satiety that we believe is fundamental to appetite control.

NARRATOR: So fat wasn't the reason for the Atkins diet success. This just added to the mystery. There had to be another to explain why the Atkins diet made people eat less. The answer may have come from Denmark. This supermarket in Copenhagen is like no other in the world. It was built by Arne Astrup, a professor in human nutrition.

Prof ARNE ASTRUP: All the food items have a bar code on it, not for, not for pricing but for all the nutrition information with the calories, protein and carbohydrate.

NARRATOR: In this supermarket the check out assistant's not all she seems. She's a scientist, and everything in the shop is free.

Prof ARNE ASTRUP: When we announced actually in the television our University here was bombarded and the switchboard broke totally down and there were almost a thousand people who wanted to participate.

NARRATOR: Professor Astrup was running a study to discover the secret of appetite control. To do this he chose sixty shoppers and split them in to two groups. One group shopped for high carbohydrate food, the other group shopped for food high in protein, similar to the Atkins diet but low in fat.

Prof ARNE ASTRUP: One group should eat a lot of, of lean meat from shell fish, fish, poultry and lean meat, and dairy products. And the other group should eat a lot of bread, pasta, rice, fruit and vegetables.

NARRATOR: Both groups were told they could eat as much as they wanted. They should eat to satisfy their appetite just as Dr Atkins advised on his diet. The study ran for a whole year and the results were spectacular.

Prof ARNE ASTRUP: One of the groups was losing much more than the other group. I say it was four or five kilo more.

NARRATOR: When they looked more closely it was clear which group had lost so much weight. it was the group eating a diet high in protein. And the shopping lists revealed why.

Prof ARNE ASTRUP: We could see from the data that the reason why the high protein group had lost more weight was because they had actually consumed fewer calories throughout the study, despite the fact that they had just as the same free access to all the foods they really want to, to eat.

NARRATOR: At last the mystery of how the Atkins diet works may have been solved. It might have nothing to do with calories being lost. Probably nothing to do with ketosis. And apparently nothing to do with burning more calories. Neither does it seem to be due to gorging on fats. The secret to the diets success may be down to something completely different. Protein makes you feel full. Increasing the amount of protein in the diet may control appetite and make people eat less than they would normally. If this research goes on to be confirmed it will be a major advance for science.

Dr ERIC WESTMAN: The idea that you can eat certain foods and that it suppresses your appetite is a breakthrough, this is, this is huge.

Dr SUSAN JEBB: What's absolutely true is that people who consume large amounts of protein seem to feel fuller quicker than people who consume similar amounts of calories as fat.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Landroval
NARRATOR: At last the mystery of how the Atkins diet works may have been solved. It might have nothing to do with calories being lost. Probably nothing to do with ketosis. And apparently nothing to do with burning more calories. Neither does it seem to be due to gorging on fats. The secret to the diets success may be down to something completely different. Protein makes you feel full. Increasing the amount of protein in the diet may control appetite and make people eat less than they would normally. If this research goes on to be confirmed it will be a major advance for science.

Thank you for providing a link Landroval. I didn't have one. The Atkin's "science" is and always was a sham in my opinion. This pattern appears everywhere. Someone (often an MD who sounds knowledgable but who has no research experience, for that you want a PhD) puts together a theory, writes a book, and suddenly people follow it like a religion. "It just has to be true", is a common thing I hear.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Landroval
NARRATOR: At last the mystery of how the Atkins diet works may have been solved. It might have nothing to do with calories being lost. Probably nothing to do with ketosis. And apparently nothing to do with burning more calories. Neither does it seem to be due to gorging on fats. The secret to the diets success may be down to something completely different. Protein makes you feel full. Increasing the amount of protein in the diet may control appetite and make people eat less than they would normally. If this research goes on to be confirmed it will be a major advance for science.

Thank you for providing a link Landroval. I didn't have one. The Atkin's "science" is and always was a sham in my opinion. This pattern appears everywhere. Someone (often an MD who sounds knowledgable but who has no research experience, for that you want a PhD) puts together a theory, writes a book, and suddenly people follow it like a religion. "It just has to be true", is a common thing I hear.

While it questions the scientific merit, the transcript does not seem to question that it does work if you stick to it....

 

[StageLeft]

While it questions the scientific merit, the transcript does not seem to question that it does work if you stick to it....

Any typical diet approach works if you stick to it. The point though is that there's nothing really magical about the fatkins diet.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

While it questions the scientific merit, the transcript does not seem to question that it does work if you stick to it....

Any typical diet approach works if you stick to it. The point though is that there's nothing really magical about the fatkins diet.

Who ever said it was magical?

It's just been ruined a bunch of jackasses that heard through the grapevine they could lose weight by pigging out on bacon. You had a gazillion people who would TELL you they were on atkins, but they were not exercising, they were not eating correctly.

It just seems silly to fault the diet itself for the idiots who claimed they were following it...but were not.

 

[Chiropteran]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Landroval
NARRATOR: At last the mystery of how the Atkins diet works may have been solved. It might have nothing to do with calories being lost. Probably nothing to do with ketosis. And apparently nothing to do with burning more calories. Neither does it seem to be due to gorging on fats. The secret to the diets success may be down to something completely different. Protein makes you feel full. Increasing the amount of protein in the diet may control appetite and make people eat less than they would normally. If this research goes on to be confirmed it will be a major advance for science.

Thank you for providing a link Landroval. I didn't have one. The Atkin's "science" is and always was a sham in my opinion. This pattern appears everywhere. Someone (often an MD who sounds knowledgable but who has no research experience, for that you want a PhD) puts together a theory, writes a book, and suddenly people follow it like a religion. "It just has to be true", is a common thing I hear.

Supposing that what Landroval posted is accurate and true, that still doesn't expalin anything about people going back to gaining weight after 6 months. As I see it, Atkins works and Landroval's post doesn't contradict that. The only thing in dispute is how it works. As long as it helps you lose weight, what is the problem?

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Jzero
While it questions the scientific merit, the transcript does not seem to question that it does work if you stick to it....

Its an old article that says "With no long term studies focussed on the diet none can be proven". New research has come out since then. Remember the recent Atkins fad is relatively new. Thus only now are one year studies coming in (and still no really long term studies have had time to come in). The one year studies all point to Atkins gaining weight on average on the second 6 months. The weight gain, like I said above, has at least two causes.

1) Some people cannot follow it,
2) The remaining people adapt to it and can now eat full portions of the diet (rather than the initial shock which causes them to eat much less).

There may be a combination of those two, or even yet unknown additional reasons why people gain weight after ~6 months on that diet.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: Skoorb

While it questions the scientific merit, the transcript does not seem to question that it does work if you stick to it....

Any typical diet approach works if you stick to it. The point though is that there's nothing really magical about the fatkins diet.

Who ever said it was magical?

It's just been ruined a bunch of jackasses that heard through the grapevine they could lose weight by pigging out on bacon. You had a gazillion people who would TELL you they were on atkins, but they were not exercising, they were not eating correctly.

It just seems silly to fault the diet itself for the idiots who claimed they were following it...but were not.

You're totally right.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Jzero
While it questions the scientific merit, the transcript does not seem to question that it does work if you stick to it....

Its an old article that says "With no long term studies focussed on the diet none can be proven". New research has come out since then. Remember the recent Atkins fad is relatively new. Thus only now are one year studies coming in (and still no really long term studies have had time to come in). The one year studies all point to Atkins gaining weight on average on the second 6 months.

Well that could be, but if you are following the diet correctly, you're supposed to be monitoring your weight and adjusting your eating/exercise accordingly...

Of course at the end of the day, it ends up being more exercise and less calories. I didn't have to buy a book to figure that out.

 

[Landroval]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Landroval
NARRATOR: At last the mystery of how the Atkins diet works may have been solved. It might have nothing to do with calories being lost. Probably nothing to do with ketosis. And apparently nothing to do with burning more calories. Neither does it seem to be due to gorging on fats. The secret to the diets success may be down to something completely different. Protein makes you feel full. Increasing the amount of protein in the diet may control appetite and make people eat less than they would normally. If this research goes on to be confirmed it will be a major advance for science.

Thank you for providing a link Landroval. I didn't have one. The Atkin's "science" is and always was a sham in my opinion. This pattern appears everywhere. Someone (often an MD who sounds knowledgable but who has no research experience, for that you want a PhD) puts together a theory, writes a book, and suddenly people follow it like a religion. "It just has to be true", is a common thing I hear.

While it questions the scientific merit, the transcript does not seem to question that it does work if you stick to it....

I don't doubt that it can work -- but it is important to understand why it does There is no mystical or undiscovered scientific process -- people just consume fewer calories, as in any other successful diet :thumbsup:

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I hear less and less about this thing these days. I know that a year ago AT was inundated with pro/con Atkins threads, and I just don't seem to come across that much in the media about it anymore. As we all know it's something that a small minority of people have found to work pretty well for them, but ultimately for most people it's not something they are willing or wanting to stick to, so back to pizza and chocolate bars for them.

What's the next diet fad coming into the limelight?

I think that good health in general has become a fad in America.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I hear less and less about this thing these days. I know that a year ago AT was inundated with pro/con Atkins threads, and I just don't seem to come across that much in the media about it anymore. As we all know it's something that a small minority of people have found to work pretty well for them, but ultimately for most people it's not something they are willing or wanting to stick to, so back to pizza and chocolate bars for them.

What's the next diet fad coming into the limelight?

I think that good health in general has become a fad in America.

Fads are popular though and most people aren't healthy

 

[91TTZ]

The fact that the guy hit his head on the sidewalk and died doesn't help things much, either. He was running the show, and now he's gone. That's like Microsoft losing Bill Gates or Apple losing Steve Jobs- once you lose your capable, popular frontman, it's' never the same.

 

[loic2003]

Originally posted by: Landroval

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Landroval
NARRATOR: At last the mystery of how the Atkins diet works may have been solved. It might have nothing to do with calories being lost. Probably nothing to do with ketosis. And apparently nothing to do with burning more calories. Neither does it seem to be due to gorging on fats. The secret to the diets success may be down to something completely different. Protein makes you feel full. Increasing the amount of protein in the diet may control appetite and make people eat less than they would normally. If this research goes on to be confirmed it will be a major advance for science.

Thank you for providing a link Landroval. I didn't have one. The Atkin's "science" is and always was a sham in my opinion. This pattern appears everywhere. Someone (often an MD who sounds knowledgable but who has no research experience, for that you want a PhD) puts together a theory, writes a book, and suddenly people follow it like a religion. "It just has to be true", is a common thing I hear.

While it questions the scientific merit, the transcript does not seem to question that it does work if you stick to it....

I don't doubt that it can work -- but it is important to understand why it does There is no mystical or undiscovered scientific process -- people just consume fewer calories, as in any other successful diet :thumbsup:

Bingo. Works like slimfast: makes you feel full but has fewer calories than regular diets.
Bottom line: calories used > calories injested = weight loss. THERE IS NO MYSTERY. IF YOU'RE FAT:EAT LESS AND EXERCISE, DON'T GIVE ME CRAP ABOUT 'GLANDULAR PROBLEMS!'.

Fat people annoy me.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

It's the only diet I've ever seen that consistently worked in the real world.

Less calories consistently works. Always has, always will

If all of your calories come from the wrong types of foods, cutting down your calorie intake won't do SH!T. I'm sorry, thats the reality of it. That is why Atkins analyzes the types of foods you eat. Talk to any nutritionalist to get information on what is good and bad. Calorie diets are absolutely retarded because they are similarly to closing your eyes and blindly firing, they may solve your problem or they may not. Atkins also doesn't always work, but usually this is because most people, like yourself, do not understand the diet, do not follow it correctly, and thus either cause themselves harm, give up, or have no effect. I can't believe I bothered arguing this again.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Yes, and that's exactly the mistake I made when I first went on the diet a few years back. I lost 70 pounds over a period of 9 months, but then I got lazy.

It's the same reason most diets fail. It's not the diet, but the person. People get comfortable with their weight loss and then fall off the wagon.

Exactly. In the end it all comes down to your dedication.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: loic2003


Bingo. Works like slimfast: makes you feel full but has fewer calories than regular diets.
Bottom line: calories used > calories injested = weight loss. THERE IS NO MYSTERY. IF YOU'RE FAT:EAT LESS AND EXERCISE, DON'T GIVE ME CRAP ABOUT 'GLANDULAR PROBLEMS!'.

That isn't entirely accurate. If you changed "ingested" to "digested" you'd have a point. But when I went on atkins my caloric intake was sky high since fat has more than twice the amount of calories per gram than carbs. I think the reason is that when you overload your system with protein and fat, much of it goes undigested (you take nasty craps). But believe me, the amount of caloriea that went in my mouth was a lot more than I ate before the diet.

 

[91TTZ]

I need to point out one popular misconception here: A diet is definitely NOT just about limiting calories. Your body will *not* look the same if you eat 2500 calories of lean chicken, brown rice and green vegatables, as compared to 2500 calories of soda, ice cream, and hot dogs. What you eat is as important as how much you eat. And on top of that, when and how often you eat also plays a huge role.

Last year when I wanted to cut up, I was eating around 1500 calories at the time. So I cut down to 1200 calories. I didn't lose any weight, the only thing that went down was my activity level. I slept more and my metabolism was slower. So I took the advice of people who bodybuild and I ate cleaner foods, more often, and more of it. I increased my caloric intake to 2400 calories a day and began losing weight. I was full of energy and felt like I was "on the go" all the time.

Keep in mind that I do count calories, but I also make sure that I eat often and eat clean foods. No hotdogs, no Cinnabon, no icre cream.

The underlying point is that your basal metabolic rate is responsible for most of your calorie burn. Fvck with that by starving yourself and you screw yourself over in the long run.

 

[StageLeft]

If all of your calories come from the wrong types of foods, cutting down your calorie intake won't do SH!T. I'm sorry, thats the reality of it. That is why Atkins analyzes the types of foods you eat. Talk to any nutritionalist to get information on what is good and bad. Calorie diets are absolutely retarded because they are similarly to closing your eyes and blindly firing, they may solve your problem or they may not. Atkins also doesn't always work, but usually this is because most people, like yourself, do not understand the diet, do not follow it correctly, and thus either cause themselves harm, give up, or have no effect. I can't believe I bothered arguing this again.

Your first sentence is quite wrong. I'm far more informed on nutrition than most people, so I do have some understanding of this stuff. The ideal diet consists of calorie restriction while also eating good food, and it's the approach I personally take. It's the approach most successful (that being people who've lost weight and kept it off) take.

It's best to eat good food while restricting calories, but believe me you can get quite thin indeed eating three chocolate bars/day. You'll look terrible, but you'll still lose fat

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
It's best to eat good food while restricting calories, but believe me you can get quite thin indeed eating three chocolate bars/day. You'll look terrible, but you'll still lose fat

You'll lose energy, muscle, fat and then eventually die. Congrats. I'm going to recommend this ingenius diet to everyone while I call atkins a fad because it actually focuses on eating healthier foods.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: Skoorb
It's best to eat good food while restricting calories, but believe me you can get quite thin indeed eating three chocolate bars/day. You'll look terrible, but you'll still lose fat

You'll lose energy, muscle, fat and then eventually die. Congrats. I'm going to recommend this ingenius diet to everyone while I call atkins a fad because it actually focuses on eating healthier foods.

You're disingenuous, at best. I didn't say it was healthy. You said If all of your calories come from the wrong types of foods, cutting down your calorie intake won't do SH!T. . I indicated that the statement is inaccurate.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

It's best to eat good food while restricting calories, but believe me you can get quite thin indeed eating three chocolate bars/day. You'll look terrible, but you'll still lose fat

You'd probably lose overall weight, and you'd lose some fat, but you'd lose even more muscle and your bodyfat percentage would probably increase. And like you said, you'd look terrible.

But like you're pointing out to the other poster, you're right, cutting calories will do something even if you eat all the wrong foods. Because the only think worse than eating all the wrong foods is eating too much of all the wrong foods.