Is 'the American Dream' a pack of lies? Can one really make it to the top?

[yllus]

I've been thinking about something I read from a book of Michael Moore's a few months ago - it's stuck with me as being particularly flagrant in its dismissal of "the American dream".

To recap, the American dream: "The faith held by many in the United States of America that through hard work and determination one can achieve a better life for oneself, usually through the earning of money."

For the sake of argument, let's place the minimal standard of the American Dream to be a multi-millionaire in the range of $2 million to $10 million dollars of mostly liquid assets. Next, let's consider this excerpt of a post (the poster's name is irrelevant):

Originally posted by: _____
And that's because of the way that the __________ message is formulated and financed- America's 18 wealthiest families, for example, have spearheaded the campaign to eliminate inheritance tax. And that's because it's of great benefit to them, and of no benefit whatsoever to 98% of Americans. That 98% merely dreams it will help them, which is what they've been taught to dream, to believe...

I've always found that both amusing and perplexing. In his book, Michael Moore stated that (to paraphrase) we, the middle class of the West, have been fooled to believe that we can do better than which we are doing today. Also, the middle classes of other countries have long since realized that such improvement is impossible and have instead decided to be happy with their lot in life.

In Moore's opinion, this is proper because it A) removes false hopes and B) has us vote for policies that can help us in the way we stand today instead of voting for policies that will help us when we make that impossible step up.

This all strikes me as horribly illogical. Sure, changing economic classes isn't easy, but it's still accomplished with regularity. If it was easy, everyone would be rich. Not to mention the mountains of anecdotal evidence against the idea - including the author of the book himself!

It also strikes me as promoting class hatreds and the tyranny of the majority in the worst way: We'll never be rich, so damn those bastards to hell while we vote for things that benefit us.

Lastly, I find it morally offensive. Who is Mr. Moore to know that you or I will never strike it big? Who is he to tell us to give up on aspiring to the top? Of all the things we all too easily tar and feather as 'anti-American', I think this is one of the few thoughts that truly is. This ideal sets America apart - don't tarnish it, or risk losing the special place in history that the U.S. still inhibits.

 

[Genx87]

The funny partis Moore is a shining example of the American dream. He worked his ass off to be the whining troll he is today and made lots of money doing it.

And doesnt he claim to come from a poor town in Michigan?

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: Genx87
The funny partis Moore is a shining example of the American dream. He worked his ass off to be the whining troll he is today and made lots of money doing it.

And doesnt he claim to come from a poor town in Michigan?

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[River Side]

Moore sold his soul.. you can too and "get to the top" .. whatever that means.. look at Rush, Hannity, Savage, Coulter and other empty bobbing heads in the media.. they 'got to the top' by selling their souls too..

so it's easy if you become part of the problem.. but if u're running against the tide.. it's classic middle class upward mobility issues you'll face day in and out.. No ruling class has ever relinquished it's power and control without a fight.. NEVER..

 

[Moonbeam]

Preachers do well in the name of that pauper Christ. It's just one of the inevitable side effects of doing the work of the Lord.

We have built a very successful nation of rats running on our wheel. It's such a huge wheel with so many rats it can even roll over Iraq. But what else is there to do with all that greed? We hate ourselves and money is our measure of value. Only by having money can we have any real worth. Thanks, Jesus, your message was a waste but you showed many among us a really good way to make money.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: River Side
Moore sold his soul.. you can too and "get to the top" .. whatever that means.. look at Rush, Hannity, Savage, Coulter and other empty bobbing heads in the media.. they 'got to the top' by selling their souls too..

so it's easy if you become part of the problem.. but if u're running against the tide.. it's classic middle class upward mobility issues you'll face day in and out.. No ruling class has ever relinquished it's power and control without a fight.. NEVER..

Explain what selling your soul entails, please? Please explain what the problem you mention is as well.

Seriously - I'm not asking with sarcasm at all. The post I made is the result of a lot of half-completed thoughts I've had while busy with other things, and I'd like to hear the other side of the story to better educate myself. Can you expand further?

 

[BladeVenom]

Michael Moore's rich so I guess anyone who takes him seriously is being played for a fool. Same holds true for any politician who tries to exploit a persons envy.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Whichever workaholic dies with the most money wins, regardless of the complete lack of relationships with the wife and kids.
(Who get to play on the dead man's dime)

 

[Zedtom]

Hard work and ambition are what makes the world function. The real problem is the breakdown in family structure when the parents are so focused on personal, professional, monetary and material gain that the children become isolated.

Look at yourself, your family and the people around you. The American Dream has created a society where the measure of a man is in his possessions. If you aren't displaying your wealth with your house, car and toys...well, then you just aren't living the dream.

 

[LordMorpheus]

hard work and ambition will take you to the top no questions - you just gotta start working hard an being ambitious in middle school - get into the advanced classes in highschool, make the grades and go to university on FAFSA money - that'll put you exactly where I am (meaning a university student with a good looking future, not that I grew up poor, because I didn't. Didn't want to give the wrong impression), and if you work for it an have enough ambition, I have absolutely no doubt that you'd be able to do it.

Sure, it'd be way harder for a kid in a bad inner city school with an unstable family and fvcked up value system to do it, but he could.

Thing is, people start whining about the lie of the american dream because they don't start trying until after they've already failed. You gotta grab life early if you want upward mobility.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Even if it's an illusion, it works for the greater good. A horde of hard working, free thinking people can strengthen your country like nothing else. The American dream that some dismiss is what brought America into its #1 spot, and the country to which people mostly aspire to immigrate.

Basically, that law of work hard and get rewards is true in any capitalist society, not just US, the US only differs on the acceptence of this theory among the general public.
Europe is only getting lazier and more dependant on welfare. Fixation corrupts the soul, lack of competitiveness makes you rot.

The American dream is what built America, would you let a scumbag like Michael Moore take it away from you?

 

[imported_Tango]

Being rich is a very relative concept. I wouldn't call Michael Moore rich, and I guess when Moore says "making it to the top" he means the real top. And in this case I agree: there are some echelons of power and wealth where you simply access based on heritage only. The same is true everywhere in the world.

One consideration about the american dream: first I always wondered how could people dream about money and devote their ambition toward the possession of items.It's so empty, and maybe this is the reason why genious is so little in the world now compared to some centuries ago. Second, having lived and worked in a dozen countries I would say the idea of the american dream is kinda flawed: it's true that in the US is easier than in some other countries to make a decent salary. The problem is you are also required to work so much more. The marginal return is very low, especially in traditionally prestigious jobs. In many parts of the world having a position up on the ladder means also working less, not so in the US. Sure a middle career investment banker makes his good share of millions, but works 80 h/wk in the US. In most european countries nobody would do it, because part of the benefits of being a middle career investment banker is to work less, so they might accept a lower compensation, but work MUCH less. So it really depends if you want to maximaze money or balance economic compensation with other things in your life.

At this point in my life I wouldn't accept to work an year doing 80 h/wk for a million bucks a month. Life doesn't revolve around your job. Maybe if I were still 19 I would think differently.

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Genx87
The funny partis Moore is a shining example of the American dream. He worked his ass off to be the whining troll he is today and made lots of money doing it.

And doesnt he claim to come from a poor town in Michigan?

I was thinking the same thing.

I don't usually agree with Gen but he does have a point here. However, for many it is quite hard, but I wouldn't say impossible. It's hard to make it when your parents don't teach you how to take care of yourself financially because they were too busy making ends meet.

 

[XMan]

It's a subjective question, really. What I consider the American Dream (house, wife, kids, etc.) might suck for somebody who already has it and takes it for granted.

 

[BurnItDwn]

I've always thought the American Dream was just having enough money to live a comfortable life and a family to live it with.

Pretty much most of the middle class lives "the American Dream."

 

[johnnobts]

Preachers do well in the name of that pauper Christ. It's just one of the inevitable side effects of doing the work of the Lord.

We have built a very successful nation of rats running on our wheel. It's such a huge wheel with so many rats it can even roll over Iraq. But what else is there to do with all that greed? We hate ourselves and money is our measure of value. Only by having money can we have any real worth. Thanks, Jesus, your message was a waste but you showed many among us a really good way to make money.

-------------------------
Not sure if you're being critical of all vocational ministers or not, moonbeam, or just the money hungry ones (of which there are too many). but here's the biblical basis for preaching as a living, rooted in the words of Christ himself, and reiterated by Paul.


Matthew 10:9 "Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, 10 or a bag for your journey, or even two tunics, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support.


1 Corinthians 9:14 In the same way, the Lord (Jesus) has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

That being said, Jesus and Paul both warned us about not loving money, whether a person is a preacher or layman:

Matthew 6:24 (Jesus said) "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.


1 Timothy 3:2 (Paul writes) "Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

I'm a full-time pastor, and have great respect for bi-vocational ministers today who, like Paul, made a living in some other trade and could preach the gospel "without charge."

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: yllus

I've always found that both amusing and perplexing. In his book, Michael Moore stated that (to paraphrase) we, the middle class of the West, have been fooled to believe that we can do better than which we are doing today. Also, the middle classes of other countries have long since realized that such improvement is impossible and have instead decided to be happy with their lot in life.

In Moore's opinion, this is proper because it A) removes false hopes and B) has us vote for policies that can help us in the way we stand today instead of voting for policies that will help us when we make that impossible step up.

Thing is, Moore is no where near the top of the pile, and he knows he is lucky to have gotten as far as he has while many people bust their asses far harder than he ever did an never make it anywhere near as far. He isn't raking in hundreds of millions a year off government contracts, he has just got himself to a comfortable enough point to where he can see the folly of chasing greedy mens' dreams.

 

[BoberFett]

How many people make it to "the top" in any other political or economic system? "The top" is exactly that. It's the absolute pinnacle. Not everybody can be at "the top" or else it wouldn't be "the top." I'm not at "the top" nor do I aspire to be. I plan to find a place that's comfortable for me balancing work, family, hobbies, and lifestyle.

Moore is an envy merchant, a hatemonger. He's as bad as those he complains about.

 

[kylebisme]

No, Moore, unlike the ones he is complaining about, isn't promoting the polices by which our government oppresses and slaughters uncounted masses for the benefit of the few.

 

[fallenangel99]

Yes, hard work can push you to the top. Look at all the Asian immigrants. They came to this country with a little bit of money, got an education (or got the education in their origin country), worked hard, and now have good jobs, even better than the average American's.

How many Asian people do you know that are on welfare?? or beg on the streets?? THe average Asian family probably has MORE in savings/checking than the average American (of course, not counting BIll Gates or Buffet!)

It bothers me when people start expecting the Gov't to help them via food stamps or free money. If they can come to AMerica and make something out of nothing, then so can everyone else... well.. maybe not really.

 

[Legend]

Not make it on top, but enough to climb the ladder. Someone born into poverty in an area with poor schools has more to go through to get there, but it can be done. Comes down to talent and willpower, but one could go from the very bottom to something like an engineer, start a family, and be fiscally secure.

 

[tommywishbone]

I always though Dusty Rhoades was the American Dream.

 

[yllus]

Don't take "the top" too narrowly, guys. Admittedly, I mixed the idea of the American Dream in a little erroneously, but you get the picture - the multi-millionaire club.

By the way, according to Forbes, seven of the top ten richest people in the world are self-made billionaires. Not quite the shadowy inherited old money we're supposed to despise.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Thing is, Moore is no where near the top of the pile, and he knows he is lucky to have gotten as far as he has while many people bust their asses far harder than he ever did an never make it anywhere near as far. He isn't raking in hundreds of millions a year off government contracts, he has just got himself to a comfortable enough point to where he can see the folly of chasing greedy mens' dreams.

Hrm. But what's the difference between Moore and these so-called greedy men? What dreams does he and you and I not share that they do? And what makes you so certain that they're "greedy" and not just after whatever happiness they deem suitable for themselves?

 

[JACKHAMMER]

Originally posted by: fallenangel99
Yes, hard work can push you to the top. Look at all the Asian immigrants. They came to this country with a little bit of money, got an education (or got the education in their origin country), worked hard, and now have good jobs, even better than the average American's.

How many Asian people do you know that are on welfare?? or beg on the streets?? THe average Asian family probably has MORE in savings/checking than the average American (of course, not counting BIll Gates or Buffet!)

It bothers me when people start expecting the Gov't to help them via food stamps or free money. If they can come to AMerica and make something out of nothing, then so can everyone else... well.. maybe not really.

Uhh... sure pal.. Asia Powa! If only we could all own our very own take-out places and dry cleaners. :disgust: Not only is your post racist and offensive, but you clearly do not understand what makes up the upper class. What you describe is squarely middle class.