Is surge protection in a UPS permanent?

[Felecha]

Back in 2000 I bought a backup battery "CyberPower 900AVR" that, at the time, a friend who knows a lot recommended as a very good one. It was early in the days of software that would watch and turn the computer off when the backup power reached a certain level. Then it would do the Windows Shutdown for you, saving all the data, etc. We are out in a rural area with more power failures than our city cousins.

I guess the battery has now pooped out, last time I was actually present for a power failure I noticed the whole thing fell over dead when the lights went out. Used to be I could see the battery kick in and watch the timer start the shutdown if it had to, etc.

Anyway, these days I dont really need the battery thing so much, but I DO care about the surge protection. I found a spec sheet on google:

Surge Energy Capacity 1260 Joules
Maximum Surge Current 36,000 Amps

I guess that indicates how big a spike it is supposed to handle for you? I'm not such a big tech whiz.

Anyway, the question is -- I am willing to stick with the unit even though I now see it does not give battery backup to speak of, as long as the surge protection is OK.

Am I right, it's an electro-mechanical gizmo inside that would not deteriorate over time like the battery side of it? I expect it could save me only once from a power hit, something inside would "fry", the sacrifice that saves the computer?

Any guidance?

Thanks

 

[Lord Evermore]

Depending on the design, surge suppressors can deteriorate over time, so I presume that some UPSes might as well. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector .

Most cheap surge suppressors use MOVs, which burn out a little bit anytime the voltage exceeds whatever limit it's designed for, the clamping voltage, because it shorts to ground.

I'm not sure if there's any standard for UPSes using better components for the surge suppression. Since they're usually designed so that you can replace the battery when it wears out, that would seem to indicate that the unit is intended to last a good long time.

If the suppression does reach a point that it's no good anymore, the unit ought to have a warning indicator.

Oh yes, those numbers you found do indicate how much of a surge it can handle. Anything above that and the suppression will fry. It should be designed so that if the suppression died due to an excessive surge, it simply cuts off power to everything, however it may not do it fast enough, or the surge could be too much for even that to work if for example lightning actually hit your power socket.

 

[Bozo Galora]

if you do a google search for batteries, UPS, you could find the bat for ~$10-$15

 

[corkyg]

After 4 years of daily use, it is very possible that the battery needs replacing. As Bozo indicates, they are available. I have had that happen on two UPS's - different brands and different sizes. In my case, they simply would no turn on. The test was to move the device plug to an unprotected outlet, and then it turned on.

There was a very good thread on this subject about a week ago, and a good technical explanation by Ms Dawn on voltage smoothing by some UPS's. Not all of them have that feature.

 

[Rubycon]

Yes MOV's tend to get 'holed' over time reducing their overall efficiency. Those cheap UPS' simply employ hash filters, MOV's and a transfer relay for the inverter so your loads are connected to mains power all the time feeding through the rather rudimentary power conditioning circuitry.

Higher end UPS' do NOT have the loads connected to mains ever and the power conditioning and surge suppression is continuous and never degrades as long as the ferroresonant transformer is in good working condition. It has been said these components have a MTBF > 100k hours however there have been ones in use for 20 years that still are good today. These are much more expensive than your cheap $100 PC ups, however. If the SLA goes bad in one of these due to age (3-4 years and it's usually a goner) you're better off buying a new UPS.

 

[GalvanizedYankee]

I would not use a UPS without a battery or one that needs a new battery.

Your UPS should have a feature in it's software for testing the batteries. Mine get tested
every 60~90 days.

If you choose to keep using your present UPS, consider buying new Panasonic batteries
here http://www.gotbatteries.com/index.asp (link provided by MWink).



...Galvanized

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: GalvanizedYankee
I would not use a UPS without a battery or one that needs a new battery.

Yes this is WORSE than not using one at all. Why? Because every single time you have a power abberation that trips the transfer to battery function your load will get dumped to the big bus carrying 0V so your computer just shuts off! That's not good.

 

[corkyg]

Glad you popped in Dawn - I still retain the link to this excellent article. I suspect you are the author?

UPS

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: corkyg
Glad you popped in Dawn - I still retain the link to this excellent article. I suspect you are the author?

UPS

Thanks, no that's not me.

 

[corkyg]

Originally posted by: MS Dawn

Thanks, no that's not me.

OK - but as far as I'm concerned you could have written it.

 

[Lord Evermore]

Originally posted by: MS Dawn

Originally posted by: GalvanizedYankee
I would not use a UPS without a battery or one that needs a new battery.

Yes this is WORSE than not using one at all. Why? Because every single time you have a power abberation that trips the transfer to battery function your load will get dumped to the big bus carrying 0V so your computer just shuts off! That's not good.

Felecha did mention he wasn't too concerned about losing power, he was only concerned with the surge suppression actually still being any good.

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: Lord Evermore

Felecha did mention he wasn't too concerned about losing power, he was only concerned with the surge suppression actually still being any good.

Problem is a lot of UPS' watchdog circuits are sensitive and will initiate a transfer causing nuisance shutdowns. Often if the computer is plugged into the wall outlet the power supply would keep the system powered through such a shallow abberation. A common annoyance is laser printers. Their fuser heaters are switched on and off rapidly to maintain temperature and will cause voltage dips on the line - especially typical 15 ampere circuits wired with 14AWG and long runs. The common complaint is that the UPS beeps when someone prints something, etc. If there was no battery whatever was connected to the load would be dropped. Better UPS (witih real power conditioning) will allow the operator to run the unit in LINE CONDITION mode only so it works as a line conditioner. This way one still receives the benefits of the line conditioning function without the blackout function of the UPS system.

 

[Zepper]

Yup, you need to replace both the batteries and MOVs in a basic UPS about every 3 to 5 years. Not much else in there to wear out. MOVs are supposed to fail in an open condition, but it is possible for them to fail in the shorted mode - and that's not good, I know . If you don't need or want the battery backup, just get a new surge suppressor and dump the old UPS.

But like others here, I think that having some battery backup is a good idea. New units give you a lot more for less money than ever before - just avoid Belkin power products.

.bh.

 

[Felecha]

I put this out and then left for the day, just back, and WOW.

OK, lost me in a lot of this, but THANKS for the input. I looked up MOV, and there is more to look up.

Batteries for this model look like they are in the mid-$30 range.

And while yes, it's the lightning I fear (a friend lost her laptop last month, we have fast moving thunderstorms in late summer here, wildly unpredictable), I sorta thought the 2 functions in this unit were actually completely independent. But you guys are saying that to keep it hooked up through the CyberPower with a useless battery is worse than just moving over to a new surge protector standalone. OK. I didn't get why, even though there was a detailed explanation. I do have a small laser printer, but it's plugged into another dead UPS, an APC Back-UPS Office that is even older. In fact, the CyberPower is plugged into one of the APC outlets. At the time I was looking around for multiplugs, and pulled the APC off the keeper shelf. I didn't think it was overloading the circuit (the house is new, yes it's a 15A circuit with 14AWG, but in the cellar where my office is, 10 feet from the panel). So the wall outlet has

AC Adapter to a Linksys hub for my desktop and occasional laptop
APC Back-UPS, which powers

1. speakers for my desktop computer
2. Brother HL2040 printer
3. CyberPower, which powers

1. desktop with 450W power supply
2. Samsung SyncMaster 1100p 21" CRT monitor

Trying to recall why I piggy-backed the 2 UPS's. I expect it was so I had easy access to unplugging it in storms. The cord for the Cyberpower reaches to the plug way down under the desk by the floor, while I have a couple of wall outlets up at desk level that are easy to get to. I'm old and don't like the hands and knees stuff. The Felecha icon was chosen on purpose.

If I fear a storm I will shut down and completely unplug and isolate everything, not depending on the surge protection at all. A direct strike would blow by any surge protection, would it not? I also unplug all ethernet, any path at all.

So I was thinking ... hmmm... may as well have double surge protection while I'm at it.

 

[Zepper]

There are sometimes solid state relays in UPSes that must have a load to operate correctly, so you can't really remove the batteries while continuing to use the ups for its surge suppression. And the longer you leave the dead batteries in, the greater the likelihood of one of them developing a short which will trip a fuse or breaker in the UPS. Best to closet any that are 5 or more years old until you can replace the bad (and potentially bad) parts. I'm in the habit of refurbishing my stuff and they are often better than when I bought them when I'm done. I'm one of those that like to fix rather than throw away. Besides, you can't just throw away stuff like UPSes in the garbage - has to go thru the annual (or semi-) hazardous wastes collection or chance a fine if caught at it.

.bh.

 

[Talcite]

you shouldn't plug a laser printer into a UPS. They're not designed for that kinda load. Besides... why do you need to print in a blackout? 0.o

 

[Rubycon]

Laser printers should never be connected to small UPS (1500VA or less). Most that are configured this way are hardwire UPS systems in the 5+ kVA range.

NEVER daisy chain your UPS with another UPS or surge suppressor! The noise (hash) filtering in these types of power strips and UPS do not like stepped approximate sine wave power that these units supply when on battery. The load presented on the UPS will be higher (resulting in shorter run times) and in rare cases the inductors may overheat causing more problems. Mutliple UPS' should always be connected in parallel, never in line.

 

[corkyg]

Dawn: Help this guy out - it's a good question on UPS battery replacement.

UPS

 

[Felecha]

OK, I don't follow a lot of it, for all I know you guys could be IM'ing each other and saying "What fun, we got a fish here ... you tell him about the twetchels and I'll say he should replace the veeblefetzers ... ". But no, I'm sure you're not like that ... ;-)

Anyway, here's the sum as I get it

1. Better to go to a plain surge protector than to keep the old dead-battery UPS just for its SP.
2. Don't do the 2 UPS's in series. If the cord wont reach ( that's the only reason I did it, just to keep from crawling under the desk, and all 3 items in the first APC UPS are using the non-battery outlets, of which there are 3 out of the total 6). I should just use a heavy extension cord instead of piggy-backing.
3. Since I have more money than time in my life, I don't think I will try to replace the battery, especially if the surge protection is also possibly degraded at the age of 6 years now. And the maunal says that if you need to replace the battery, follow the instructions in this manual. And then, honest to goodness, there is nothing in the manual about it!

So the remaining questions are, and here we are just in a choice situation, up to me

1. Drop-dead power-outs -- how damaging are they really for the computer? If I just go for surge protection and allow it to go dead if the power cuts out, which will happen, maybe 5 to 10 times in a year here in our rural area, I can just boot, and I don't worry that much about loss of data. If I choose that, how much surge protection should I look for? And recommendation? Someone says stay away from Belkin, which is a common brand I see.

2. If I do go for a UPS, how big and what brand or type? Looks like what I see at Newegg is either in the 100's or 300's for cost. Is that a jump in technology? All I have to power is

desktop
monitor
printer
laptop
hub
speakers

Thanks all

 

[corkyg]

Originally posted by: Felecha

1. Drop-dead power-outs -- how damaging are they really for the computer? If I just go for surge protection and allow it to go dead if the power cuts out, which will happen, maybe 5 to 10 times in a year here in our rural area, I can just boot, and I don't worry that much about loss of data. If I choose that, how much surge protection should I look for? And recommendation? Someone says stay away from Belkin, which is a common brand I see.

2. If I do go for a UPS, how big and what brand or type? Looks like what I see at Newegg is either in the 100's or 300's for cost. Is that a jump in technology? All I have to power is desktop; monitor; printer; laptop; hub; speakers. Thanks all

No, I am not aware of IM'ing. This is a pretty common topic in the last few months. Here are my thoughts on your 2 questions:

1. Drop dead power outtages are not any more damaging than just accidentally turning off your computer without shutting down. The problem is that many power outtages are not clean - they sometimes flicker on and off, then off, and can return with a surge. I have no Belkin grudge, but I prefer Tripplite or APC.

2. Brand is answered in 1. UPS's are quite heavy - I would opt for local purchase, 1st choice, Costco, then BestBuy, Wal-Mart, etc. Shipping a UPS is a pain. I think a 1000 V/A capacity would handle everything you need. I would only connect the computer, the monitor and the hub. The rest don't need it - especially the laptop. It has its own built in UPS via the A/C adapter and battery.

I'm sure you'll get lots of other good suggestions as well. Good luck!

 

[Zepper]

I've had several brief power outages here while my UPS was out of circuit for refurbishing. I have my BIOS set for it to stay off when it goes off, but it didn't - I guess they weren't really seen as full power outages as they were so brief. I was sweating there for a while. It's the bounces when the power comes back that usually causes the problems for equipment.

I'm building a dropout relay so I can be sure that if the power goes below a certain level, my PC will STAY OFF until I reset it.

.bh.

 

[Felecha]

just kidding about the IM's

And thanks one more time, I'm all set

F