Is socket 754 "obsolete?" Please read OP before voting

[Zap]

Comparing socket 754 to 939, is socket 754 obsolete?

Does "obsolete" mean that the CPU can no longer run the software, or does it mean that it is no longer the best?

If you don't want to read the rest of this post, stop here and think about the previous two sentences for a moment, and then vote.

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I don't think anyone would argue that socket 939 is not the "better" or "faster" platform at this time, but the question isn't what is better or faster, but what makes something obsolete?

Putting things into perspective, I think most people would consider both sockets "obsolete" in 5-10 years, but what about now? What about over the next year or two?

What exactly makes something "obsolete?" Let's explore the similarities and differences between the two platforms.

CPU capabilities: Both sockets have available chips that can support SSE3 and x86-64. TIE

CPU raw performance: Socket 754 maxed out at 2.4GHz while socket 939 maxes out at 2.8GHz. 939

CPU low cost: Socket 754 Semprons can be widely purchased for as low as around $60 while the cheapest socket 939 CPU that is currently widely available runs at about $160. 754

Dual cores: I don't think there are any plans however remote to make dual cores available for socket 754. 939

Cooling: Both sockets can use the same CPU coolers and temperature depends on voltage, core MHz and process type (130nm vs 90nm). TIE

New motherboard technology: SATA and PCIe are the hot new things for boards to have. TIE

SLI: For gamers needing a longer e-peen and benchmark bragging rights. TIE

Overclockability: We're talking about 300MHz system bus speeds and relatively common 2.5GHz+ core speeds. TIE

Performance advantage inherent in platform: For the most part AMD claims (based on their + rating compared to true MHz) a roughly 10% performance advantage for the same core when used with dual channel versus single channel. The real-world average gain may be closer to 5%, but that's still a real gain in performance. Whether you can notice a 5-10% performance gain without using software to measure the difference, well, we'll leave that arguement for some other time. 939

The apparent differences:

Price: Advantage 754
Performance: Advantage 939
Capabilities: TIE*

From those two points of view, the platforms complement each other. Socket 754 is not obsolete, just the lower price alternative.

*Dual core?

That's the big difference. Does lacking the capability to go dual core make socket 754 "obsolete" today? For the next year? Besides a performance difference, is there software that is commonly used which absolutely does not run on a single core system? I'd say that at this point in time (and at least for the next year or two) dual core is an issue of performance, not capability.

Let's put it another way for the typical gamer (common around here it seems). For the same money and considering games of today and possibly next year or two, what would be the better choice for roughly the same money: 2GHz single core with a 7800GT or 2GHz dual core with a 6600GT?

On the one hand, if a system can still run all the software on the market, then it shouldn't be considered obsolete (slow as molasses, maybe). On the other hand when the newest/greatest comes out the former champion is taken down a few rungs, meaning the FX60 is the only non-obsolete AMD CPU. Where do you draw the line?

Vote and discuss.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I require 100% more poll to vote! I vote skt754 is budget gaming king.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
I require 100% more poll to vote! I vote skt754 is budget gaming king.

More like the budget 'everything' king.

Just built a s754 sempron HTPC for a friend; it works absolutely great, and the whole thing cost less than an X2.

 

[CKXP]

CPU raw performance: Socket 754 maxed out at 2.4GHz while socket 939 maxes out at 2.8GHz. 939

AMD Mobile Athlon 64 4000 Newark 2.6Ghz 1mb cache, it'll cost you a pretty penny though.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
I require 100% more poll to vote! I vote skt754 is budget gaming king.

More like the budget 'everything' king.

Just built a s754 sempron HTPC for a friend; it works absolutely great, and the whole thing cost less than an X2.

Well, it hasn't shown me anything in DC projects area that my mobile Barton couldn't match, so not quite everything But I know what you meant.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
I require 100% more poll to vote! I vote skt754 is budget gaming king.

More like the budget 'everything' king.

Just built a s754 sempron HTPC for a friend; it works absolutely great, and the whole thing cost less than an X2.

Well, it hasn't shown me anything in DC projects area that my mobile Barton couldn't match, so not quite everything But I know what you meant.

Looks like some of them are getting into the high 2.x range overclocked; not as convenient as the multiplier-unlocked bartons, but I'm thinking about one for my own htpc upgrade once I figure out how to fund it

 

[Avalon]

My friend just bought a Sempron 2800+ for $65, a Biostar Tforce 6100 s754 mobo for $70, and a 7800GT for $285. His budget was $425 for CPU/Mobo/GPU. We explored a s939 option, but the GPU he could have afforded would have been much weaker. We chose the Biostar board because of its supposed good overclocking, so we're hoping to get his 2800+ up to 2.2, which should be a snap for most boards. Now that's a monster budget gaming system.

 

[SynthDude2001]

IMO it's not obsolete on the value end. If you want a CPU under $100 (and there are probably still a lot of people on Athlon XP-era systems who are only looking to pay that much), there's no way that's going to happen with Socket 939. I wouldn't recommend 754 as a general solution at this point, but it still has its place (at least until 939 Semprons become available, if that ever happens).

 

[Avalon]

Originally posted by: SynthDude2001
IMO it's not obsolete on the value end. If you want a CPU under $100 (and there are probably still a lot of people on Athlon XP-era systems who are only looking to pay that much), there's no way that's going to happen with Socket 939. I wouldn't recommend 754 as a general solution at this point, but it still has its place (at least until 939 Semprons become available, if that ever happens).

I think s754 is still a good choice for someone keeping a system for 2-3 years at most. An overclocked Sempron is a heck of a value, and you can get PCI-e and the latest SATA connections on s754 boards. But, if s939 Semprons ever become available, I think that will change things up drastically. My recommendations would switch in a heartbeat.

 

[mindwreck]

its not completely dead yet. The sempron is still more then enough for people with basic computing needs. Its one heck of a value and when its overclocked it does as well as cpus that cost as much as 3x its price.

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: SynthDude2001
IMO it's not obsolete on the value end. If you want a CPU under $100 (and there are probably still a lot of people on Athlon XP-era systems who are only looking to pay that much), there's no way that's going to happen with Socket 939. I wouldn't recommend 754 as a general solution at this point, but it still has its place (at least until 939 Semprons become available, if that ever happens).

ya rly

I'm honoured by the thread tho

 

[Zap]

I get the dunce cap of the day by fubaring the poll. Of course I don't do polls everyday so had to go back to edit my post and figure out the polling stuff...

My apologies, and egg on my face.

Originally posted by: SynthDude2001
IMO it's not obsolete on the value end. If you want a CPU under $100 (and there are probably still a lot of people on Athlon XP-era systems who are only looking to pay that much)

That's a good point. Who here got one of those nice XP1700+ CPUs that overclocked like mad for only $60? Who remembers pairing that with a GF4Ti 4200 for some budget overclocked goodness? What's happened to those days? Everything else gets better and cheaper, but CPU and video card ASP has gone up with the increased performance. People used to love their budget stuff, but now some people look down upon good value.

 

[potato28]

Not even close to dead when you think that nVidia made a nF4 chipset for the s754. Theres even PCIe and SATA on it. Not to leave out the best bang for buck processer on it: the Sempron. I'd hafta say that a P2 is obsolete, but the s754 is far far from it.

 

[Bateluer]

s754 isn't obsolete. But it wouldn't be on my upgrade list anywhere. No real upgradeability (Dual Core).

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: Zap


I get the dunce cap of the day by fubaring the poll. Of course I don't do polls everyday so had to go back to edit my post and figure out the polling stuff...

My apologies, and egg on my face.

Originally posted by: SynthDude2001
IMO it's not obsolete on the value end. If you want a CPU under $100 (and there are probably still a lot of people on Athlon XP-era systems who are only looking to pay that much)

That's a good point. Who here got one of those nice XP1700+ CPUs that overclocked like mad for only $60? Who remembers pairing that with a GF4Ti 4200 for some budget overclocked goodness? What's happened to those days? Everything else gets better and cheaper, but CPU and video card ASP has gone up with the increased performance. People used to love their budget stuff, but now some people look down upon good value.

You entirely misconstrued what i was saying before, which was essentially that if you can afford the 939 system and intend to seriously game on it, then it has a FAR brighter future with dual core drivers kicking in (you only have to see the humble 820D kicking sand in a FX-57s face in Q4 to see that in ATs latest benchmarks)...get a 3000+ now, o'c the hell out of it (so maybe 2.5ghz) and enjoy a single core powerhouse, then grab a cheap dual core cpu in a years time and repeat the trick for a significant performance boost...

I think you are misleading the debate by talking about non sempron 754s tho, beacuse their cost advantage over 939 is minimal...in that situation you'd be barking to get 754 imo. Which leaves sempron 754 for keen overclockers and value computing needs (at stock)...all well and good

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: dug777

Originally posted by: Zap


I get the dunce cap of the day by fubaring the poll. Of course I don't do polls everyday so had to go back to edit my post and figure out the polling stuff...

My apologies, and egg on my face.

Originally posted by: SynthDude2001
IMO it's not obsolete on the value end. If you want a CPU under $100 (and there are probably still a lot of people on Athlon XP-era systems who are only looking to pay that much)

That's a good point. Who here got one of those nice XP1700+ CPUs that overclocked like mad for only $60? Who remembers pairing that with a GF4Ti 4200 for some budget overclocked goodness? What's happened to those days? Everything else gets better and cheaper, but CPU and video card ASP has gone up with the increased performance. People used to love their budget stuff, but now some people look down upon good value.

You entirely misconstrued what i was saying before, which was essentially that if you can afford the 939 system and intend to seriously game on it, then it has a FAR brighter future with dual core drivers kicking in (you only have to see the humble 820D kicking sand in a FX-57s face in Q4 to see that in ATs latest benchmarks)...get a 3000+ now, o'c the hell out of it (so maybe 2.5ghz) and enjoy a single core powerhouse, then grab a cheap dual core cpu in a years time and repeat the trick for a significant performance boost...

I think you are misleading the debate by talking about non sempron 754s tho, beacuse their cost advantage over 939 is minimal...in that situation you'd be barking to get 754 imo. Which leaves sempron 754 for keen overclockers and value computing needs (at stock)...all well and good

Cheapest retail A64 for 754 is 20 bucks less than cheapest retail 939 A64. 20 dolllars is alot of money if your on a budget. Add the fact that a half decent mobo for 754 costs 10 dollars less than 939 and you see that your saving 30 bucks on the whole system. 30 bucks might not seem like alot to you, but that 30 bucks saved may be the difference between getting a card like the x850XT and the 7800GT.

The Semprons provide an even cheaper option for 754, and allows for a great video card. The 3100+ costs 80 bucks less than the 3200+ amd 64, and the 2800+ sempron costs 85-90 bucks less than the 3200+ 939 AMD 64. At those prices, it could be the difference between a 7800GT and a GTX or x1900.

As for you saying just to get a cheaper dual core processor later, well we don't know how much the x2s will cost in the future. THey might drop significantly in price, or they might not dip below the 200 dollar mark. Also, if you saved your money, then you could just purchase a new motherboard with the money that you saved by going 754 instead of 939. Then buy a 939 dual core processor. The cost will be the same.

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: dug777

Originally posted by: Zap


I get the dunce cap of the day by fubaring the poll. Of course I don't do polls everyday so had to go back to edit my post and figure out the polling stuff...

My apologies, and egg on my face.

Originally posted by: SynthDude2001
IMO it's not obsolete on the value end. If you want a CPU under $100 (and there are probably still a lot of people on Athlon XP-era systems who are only looking to pay that much)

That's a good point. Who here got one of those nice XP1700+ CPUs that overclocked like mad for only $60? Who remembers pairing that with a GF4Ti 4200 for some budget overclocked goodness? What's happened to those days? Everything else gets better and cheaper, but CPU and video card ASP has gone up with the increased performance. People used to love their budget stuff, but now some people look down upon good value.

You entirely misconstrued what i was saying before, which was essentially that if you can afford the 939 system and intend to seriously game on it, then it has a FAR brighter future with dual core drivers kicking in (you only have to see the humble 820D kicking sand in a FX-57s face in Q4 to see that in ATs latest benchmarks)...get a 3000+ now, o'c the hell out of it (so maybe 2.5ghz) and enjoy a single core powerhouse, then grab a cheap dual core cpu in a years time and repeat the trick for a significant performance boost...

I think you are misleading the debate by talking about non sempron 754s tho, beacuse their cost advantage over 939 is minimal...in that situation you'd be barking to get 754 imo. Which leaves sempron 754 for keen overclockers and value computing needs (at stock)...all well and good

Cheapest retail A64 for 754 is 20 bucks less than cheapest retail 939 A64. 20 dolllars is alot of money if your on a budget. Add the fact that a half decent mobo for 754 costs 10 dollars less than 939 and you see that your saving 30 bucks on the whole system. 30 bucks might not seem like alot to you, but that 30 bucks saved may be the difference between getting a card like the x850XT and the 7800GT.

The Semprons provide an even cheaper option for 754, and allows for a great video card. The 3100+ costs 80 bucks less than the 3200+ amd 64, and the 2800+ sempron costs 85-90 bucks less than the 3200+ 939 AMD 64. At those prices, it could be the difference between a 7800GT and a GTX or x1900.

As for you saying just to get a cheaper dual core processor later, well we don't know how much the x2s will cost in the future. THey might drop significantly in price, or they might not dip below the 200 dollar mark. Also, if you saved your money, then you could just purchase a new motherboard with the money that you saved by going 754 instead of 939. Then buy a 939 dual core processor. The cost will be the same.

Asrock AGP/PCI-E mobo is expensive? Then you can carry your AGP card over with no hassles, unlike having to decide if you want an 'obsolete' 754 mobo with AGP, or a PCI_E 754 mobo, AND having to get a new PCI-E card Plus you get the dual core, dual channel option of 939

Personally thats what i will be doing...and i suppose i could manage to work an extra hour to pay the difference between a 939 and 754 A64 :Q

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: dug777
You entirely misconstrued what i was saying before, which was essentially that if you can afford the 939 system and intend to seriously game on it, then it has a FAR brighter future...

I think you are misleading the debate by talking about non sempron 754s tho, beacuse their cost advantage over 939 is minimal...

Nah, I just nit picked at your choice of words in describing socket 754 as "obsolete."

I only brought up non-Sempron socket 754 once...

Originally posted by: Zap
CPU raw performance: Socket 754 maxed out at 2.4GHz while socket 939 maxes out at 2.8GHz. 939

That was just to illustrate a point conceded to socket 939. Of course I was promptly corrected by being shown that a 1MB cache 2.6GHz core is available for socket 754 at a hefty price. Otherwise my intent was Semprons. With the new E3/E6 core Semprons, there is no software that it cannot run, be it SSE3 or x86-64.

Let me at this time point out that I have never told people to buy a socket 754 setup when there's a near overlap in prices for similar speeds.

Alright, alright, I probably crossed the line sometime last year, saying that a $158 3700+ (eWiz 2.4GHz 1MB 754) and a $125 3400+ (PCClub 2.4GHz 512k 754) were good values back when a 3000+ was $135 (1.8GHz 512k 939) and a 3200+ was $150 (2GHz 512k 929). A 600MHz difference with same cache can really make up for no dual channel. I had actually gotten a used 3400+ and it would run at 2.5GHz stable, not bad for a Newcastle. My wife's 3200+ venice can only do 2.4GHz stable.

Originally posted by: Zap
the platforms complement each other. Socket 754 is not obsolete, just the lower price alternative

Sure, if there was a $20 difference, just save up a bit more. However, there are Semprons that are $100 cheaper than the cheapest socket 939 CPU, and the most expensive one is $40 cheaper. Whatever happened to the cheap socket 939 CPUs anyways? Not even counting when the Opteron 144 first came out, the 3000+ used to be available for about $135. Now there's nothing under $160. That $100 difference may not be a lot to you, but for myself, I'm unemployed and in grad school. I've got friends that make near minimum wage. I've got one friend that is supporting his parents and two brothers on $10/hour, plus still paying for his car. Some of the people I've met at LANs are still in high school and don't happen to have wealthy parents.

Let me draw a diagram...

PRICE:
$0------$60------$125----$160--------------$360-----------------$1000

ACTUAL RANGE OVERLAP:
N/A-----|<-------------754------------------->|(mobile A64 2.6GHz 1MB 754)
------------------------------|<----------------939---------------------->

RECOMMENDED:
N/A-----|<---754--->|-???-|<----------------939---------------------->

The ??? part is a grey area where it may make sense to save up the few extra dollars if possible, depending on individual circumstances. This grey area would be an easier choice if there were still $135 socket 939 CPUs available.

An analogy would be this:

Which is better and which is obsolete? Geforce 6600GT or 7800GTX?

Well, we all know which is better. Neither is obsolete at this time when the lower priced unit can play any and all games on the market and AFAIK announced and still in development. Would any gamer not want a 7800GTX (other than to get an ATI card)? Why would someone buy a 6600GT when the 7800GTX is a much superior product and that should clearly last longer in useful gameplay years?

 

[mordantmonkey]

obsolete? absolutely not. bad choice for an upgrade path? with the lack of support for dual cores, i'd say yes.
however if you are looking for a cheap but very capable solution that you can sell outright later; then i'd say yes that's exactly what it is meant for.

 

[carlosd]

Obsolete? The semprom 754 OCs as hell, youcan use PCI-e, and at same clock speeds it's in general apps 1-3% slower than the A64 venice and 8-14% slower in games given you have a fast video card (higher than 6800), it's dirty cheap , cool and OCED it whips much more expensive CPUs at stock. How can that be obsolete?

 

[Avalon]

I'd say they're generally 5-10% slower than an equally clocked Venice, but yeah, they're dirt cheap and they overclock very nicely.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Originally posted by: carlosd
Obsolete? The semprom 754 OCs as hell, youcan use PCI-e, and at same clock speeds it's in general apps 1-3% slower than the A64 venice and 8-14% slower in games given you have a fast video card (higher than 6800), it's dirty cheap , cool and OCED it whips much more expensive CPUs at stock. How can that be obsolete?

They are obsolete ponchito when AMD plans no future upgrades for this socket! When I was considering dual core, I thought about 754 and knew if I was planning two years out, this WASNT the way to go.

Go Dug777!

 

[KoolDrew]

I definitely would not say they are obsolete. In fact, I just ordered parts for a new Sempron 754 rig I'm building.

 

[Zap]

FelixDeKat, what can run on a dual core that cannot run on a single core?

AMD does have some plans for socket 754 whether they tell us or not. About a month or so ago they quietly released a Venice core A64 for socket 754, plus there may be a 3700+ Sempron in the future.

"Upgrade path" and "obsolete" are two different things. For some people, "upgrade path" is very important, however that does not apply to everyone and just assuming that it does is just being self centered. That's fine when buying for yourself, but that may (or may not) be a disservice to anyone you may give purchasing advice to.

 

[carlosd]

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat

Originally posted by: carlosd
Obsolete? The semprom 754 OCs as hell, youcan use PCI-e, and at same clock speeds it's in general apps 1-3% slower than the A64 venice and 8-14% slower in games given you have a fast video card (higher than 6800), it's dirty cheap , cool and OCED it whips much more expensive CPUs at stock. How can that be obsolete?

They are obsolete ponchito when AMD plans no future upgrades for this socket! When I was considering dual core, I thought about 754 and knew if I was planning two years out, this WASNT the way to go.

Go Dug777!

That doesn't mead its obsolete, so 915 mobos are obsolete because the don't support dual core pentiums??