Is Society Coming Apart?

Moonbeam

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Nov 24, 1999
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This hopefully thought provoking article delineates and contrasts the differing takes between liberals and conservatives regarding the proper relation between society and government, sort of the 'I am a rock I am an island approach' to 'it takes a village'.

Perhaps folk on different sides of the spectrum can find some understanding of how the other side thinks. I would say our society or collective of individuals needs some help.
 

Sunburn74

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Oct 5, 2009
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Half of society thinks

1: the last election was stolen and Trump was a good president
2: COVID is a hoax
3: Vaccines are a hoax
4: Global warming is a hoax
5: Racism is a hoax and doesn't meaningfully affect things today

I mean when 1/2 of society is starting there in terms of critical thinking, what hope do we have? It's not a matter of finding common ground. It's a matter of trying to get these people to even be in the same planet honestly.
 

vi edit

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Half of society thinks

1: the last election was stolen and Trump was a good president
2: COVID is a hoax
3: Vaccines are a hoax
4: Global warming is a hoax
5: Racism is a hoax and doesn't meaningfully affect things today

I mean when 1/2 of society is starting there in terms of critical thinking, what hope do we have? It's not a matter of finding common ground. It's a matter of trying to get these people to even be in the same planet honestly.

You can also add thoughts and prayers as the only response to gun violence and yeah.

I don't even know how to even begin to engage in a reasonable conversation any more let alone try and find some common ground to bring them back.
 
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Sunburn74

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You can also add thoughts and prayers as the only response to gun violence and yeah.

I don't even know how to even begin to engage in a reasonable conversation any more let alone try and find some common ground to bring them back.
I mean that's the basic issue. With many of the big discussions society has to have, facts, data, logic, etc no longer matter to one side.
 

vi edit

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I do stick an overwhelming amount of blame on far right "leaders" who worm tongue and froth their base out of one side of their mouth and then do the total opposite behind their backs. And same for media outlets that fan the flames and in secret have their own corporate policies that are the opposite of what they preach.

We're broke.
 
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vi edit

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Timelines are also very weird when you step back. I'm 43 years old. It was only a couple years before I was born (1974) that women could even apply for loans or easily open a checking account. It was only 10 years before that that blacks were able to vote.

In a country that was founded on freedom, only being 45-60 years removed from that seems pretty damn tone deaf.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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It's important in this context to distinguish social conservatism from libertarian "free market" conservatism. There is no necessary link between the two. Social conservatism is old as the hills. Libertarianism is of more recent vintage, tracing back to early to mid 20th century, Ayn Rand and the like. It is nearly unique to America because it perfectly synergizes with our style of materialistic capitalism. It ended up being linked to social conservatism in the mid 20th century as a form of anti-communism. Libertarian conservatism is why, for example, we don't have socialized medicine or a more aggressive response to climate change.

However, what's important to understand in today's context is that our core division is along the lines of social conservatism vs. social liberalism. It's pure tribalism: religious v. secular, white v. non-white, old v. young, rural v. urban. OP's article is really discussing the libertarian form, which we are seeing with, for example, the whole "anti-mask" movement. Government can't tell me what to do, etc.

But this continued link between the two styles of conservatism is really a function of our social divisions which have been exacerbated through conservative media. There's a reason Tucker Carlson spends two weeks talking about Dr. Suess and comparatively little time discussing government policies. Because it's the social divisions which prick the conservative hind brain. Opposition to actual policy like masking or universal healthcare is really just a form of contrarianism. They reflexively oppose liberal policies not out of considered analysis but because liberals are the wrong kind of people and thus whatever they are trying to do must be opposed.

I don't really know what to do about any of this. Unless or until enough conservatives take their heads out of conspiracy theories and other conservative propaganda there isn't much we can do. We are hopelessly divided along tribal lines. The extreme woke shit from the left probably isn't helping but I get the sense that toning it down would only help a little.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
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Suppose all libs went to Mars and Trumpians inherited the earth.

The moment Trumpians figure out how to navigate a nuclear warhead to Mars they would. Why? Cause however, whatever shitpool they'd be in, they'd rationalize it away to make it "The Martians" fault.

The social fabric of Trumpism is NOT SUSTAINABLE, it will collapse on it self every single time, question is how much of its surroundings it pulls down with it.

Trumpism is parasitic in nature.
 

SteveGrabowski

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Oct 20, 2014
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Half of society thinks

1: the last election was stolen and Trump was a good president
2: COVID is a hoax
3: Vaccines are a hoax
4: Global warming is a hoax
5: Racism is a hoax and doesn't meaningfully affect things today

I mean when 1/2 of society is starting there in terms of critical thinking, what hope do we have? It's not a matter of finding common ground. It's a matter of trying to get these people to even be in the same planet honestly.

It's not half of society. It's half the electorate. We're the majority but having a senate with their feet on our necks keeps us a right wing shithole.
 
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vi edit

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It's not half of society. It's half the electorate. We're the majority but having a senate with their feet on our necks keeps us a right wing shithole.

That doesn't change what is happening at local levels. Look at SD, Wisconsin, NC, ect. All are seeing powergrabs and crumbling democracy at state levels. I've gone round and round with my wife where she thinks that ending the filibuster in the senate would magically fix things. It won't. And it will just turbo fuck us once a seat or two flip for favorable ground for the GOP in the senate.

We have a deep rooted systemic problem that goes down to local identity politics and festers up from there. Then is amplified 10 fold by conservative media to just froth it up more.

@woolfe9998 is spot on about this being absolutely tribal based. We're splitting into educational/locality(rural vs urban) tribes and eating our own if they don't step in line to match us.
 

nOOky

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Aug 17, 2004
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It's the internet and news sources that aren't actually factual news sources imho. People are generally polite to one another when they can't hide behind a keyboard. It's true that most of the shit spewing done online would never happen face to face. People would be too ashamed when they are asked to think and are corrected in person.
 

Franz316

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Sep 12, 2000
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Half of society thinks

1: the last election was stolen and Trump was a good president
2: COVID is a hoax
3: Vaccines are a hoax
4: Global warming is a hoax
5: Racism is a hoax and doesn't meaningfully affect things today
Don't forget to throw in some Christian fanaticism where they would like nothing more than for society to collapse and have their Jebus return. Their are millions of people that allow Christianity to dictate their entire lives which in turn removes any sense of agency or rational thought they might have. If they don't get their rapture, I'm sure they'd be more than happy to instate a Christian theocracy.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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Half of society thinks

1: the last election was stolen and Trump was a good president
2: COVID is a hoax
3: Vaccines are a hoax
4: Global warming is a hoax
5: Racism is a hoax and doesn't meaningfully affect things today

I mean when 1/2 of society is starting there in terms of critical thinking, what hope do we have? It's not a matter of finding common ground. It's a matter of trying to get these people to even be in the same planet honestly.
5 needs clarification IMO. To me, it seems that it would be more accurate to say that they perceive any discussion of systemic racism of the past or present as a personal attack meant to make them feel guilty for being white. Of course, that speaks more to their character than they realize.
 
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vi edit

Elite Member
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It's the internet and news sources that aren't actually factual news sources imho. People are generally polite to one another when they can't hide behind a keyboard. It's true that most of the shit spewing done online would never happen face to face. People would be too ashamed when they are asked to think and are corrected in person.

Sure that's part of it, but the real issue is that you have welcoming hosts that accept it. That's not necessarily caused by the internet or news sources. That's some deeper rooted paranoia, fear, rejection of truth, ect. The internet just gives a voice and validation to bad opinions that are easy to retweet. There's a much more complicated issue as to *why* people are going down that road.
 
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Sunburn74

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Opposition to actual policy like masking or universal healthcare is really just a form of contrarianism. They reflexively oppose liberal policies not out of considered analysis but because liberals are the wrong kind of people and thus whatever they are trying to do must be opposed.

...

The extreme woke shit from the left probably isn't helping but I get the sense that toning it down would only help a little.

I think this is the basic issue. It isn't logical but just hard line positions drawn in the sand. It's akin to what the senate said and did to Obama who was pretty much a moderate in almost everything. I disagree that the "left started" it. When I look at things the partisanship really started with the election of Obama and it went down hill from there because the catchphrased racist vitriol hurled at him simply let the headliners have a louder and louder voice because it was so easy to put on a TV and broadcast to the world (both on Fox in support and on MSNBC in disgust) .
 

MrSquished

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Jan 14, 2013
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Half of society thinks

1: the last election was stolen and Trump was a good president
2: COVID is a hoax
3: Vaccines are a hoax
4: Global warming is a hoax
5: Racism is a hoax and doesn't meaningfully affect things today

I mean when 1/2 of society is starting there in terms of critical thinking, what hope do we have? It's not a matter of finding common ground. It's a matter of trying to get these people to even be in the same planet honestly.

This is it. I have nothing in common with those people besides needing the same basic human functions like to eat, sleep, have sex, etc...

I do not wish to be in a society with such horrific people, or at least where there are enough of them to be able to govern my life with their deplorableness.
 
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vi edit

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I think this is the basic issue. It isn't logical but just hard line positions drawn in the sand. It's akin to what the senate said and did to Obama who was pretty much a moderate in almost everything. I disagree that the "left started" it. When I look at things the partisanship really started with the election of Obama and it went down hill from there because the catchphrased racist vitriol hurled at him simply let the headliners have a louder and louder voice because it was so easy to put on a TV and broadcast to the world (both on Fox in support and on MSNBC in disgust) .

I'd rewind that back further and look to Clinton and what Newt Gingrich found to be successful tactics. Then look where we are now. Reagan was a weird timeline where he was a nice, well spoken warm grandpa in front of the cameras and had some downright hateful and social damning policy off it.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

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I'd rewind that back further and look to Clinton and what Newt Gingrich found to be successful tactics. Then look where we are now. Reagan was a weird timeline where he was a nice, well spoken warm grandpa in front of the cameras and had some downright hateful and social damning policy off it.
I'm sure we could do this all day long, but pretty sure Nixon was the impetus, it was decided the Republican party would never be that embarrassed again. Fox (and the dramatization of politics) was birthed from that unholy union and nothing has been the same since.
 
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vi edit

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I'm sure we could do this all day long, but pretty sure Nixon was the impetus, it was decided the Republican party would never be that embarrassed again. Fox (and the dramatization of politics) was birthed from that unholy union and nothing has been the same since.

Absolutely fair as well. With Nixon his goon Roger Stone mostly worked in the shadows. Once they learned they were above the law they stepped into the daylight and embraced the behavior. And never stopped.