Is SLI/Crossfire support dying?

[mrbrout]

I finally assembled my dream HTPC of an I7, dual 980Tis and a 4K Tv..

To my Huge disappointment.. the most recent AAA title games don't support true SLI/Crossfire. Is it a fluke the most recent titles don't? It has me spooked..

Arkham Knight
Fallout 4
Just Cause 3

 

[Mondozei]

Tell me about it.

SLI has been a broken hack this entire year.

I used to have 290 in Crossfire. Sold off my first card in the beginning of this year and my second card in mid-summer. I used to to think it was AMD's driver slopiness that was the bogeyman here but 2015 has shown us things as equally bad for NV.

Hopefully things will get fixed with DX12 but right now, anyone who recommends going Crossfire/SLI for new AAA games is ignorant.

 

[Silverforce11]

Some studios you should not expect functional CF/SLI.

So much for AAA prices when they neglect PC enthusiasts.

 

[Mondozei]

By the way, this is a great part from Ryan's Fury X review:

Almost 7 years ago to this day, AMD formally announced their “small die strategy.” Embarked upon in the aftermath of the company’s struggles with the Radeon HD 2900 XT, AMD opted against continuing to try beat NVIDIA at their own game. Rather than chase NVIDIA to absurd die sizes and the risks that come with it, the company would focus on smaller GPUs for the larger sub-$300 market. Meanwhile to compete in the high-end markets, AMD would instead turn to multi-GPU technology – CrossFire – to offer even better performance at a total cost competitive with NVIDIA’s flagship cards.

A bit later we can read

Since 2008 NVIDIA has continued to push big dies, but they’ve gotten smarter about it as well, producing increasingly efficient GPUs that have made it harder for a scrappy AMD to undercut NVIDIA. At the same time alternate frame rendering, the cornerstone of CrossFire and SLI, has become increasingly problematic as rendering techniques get less and less AFR-friendly, making dual GPU cards less viable than they once were.

So there has been a degradation. This is why AMD pushed for bigger and bigger dies. They saw the writing on the wall a long time ago. Crossfire was a legitimate strategy to outwit NV on cost but it no longer is.

People haven't been paying attention and many still think we're in the same position as we were in 2008-2011 and that any lack of SLI/Crossfire support is soley due to incompetence of NV/AMD or the game devs(see Silverforce above), but as Ryan makes clear, it's more complicated than that.

I personally hope we can see a revival in dual GPU in a few years from now, but as of right now, it's dead.

 

[desprado]

add Assassin's Creed Syndicate as well. SLI and CF are dying that is well know due to developers giving priority to console and making engine which suits console. Developers are using in house engine which is also the big problem.

 

[Silverforce11]

@Mondozei

Did you know some of those games without CF/SLI were built with the same engines that other AAA titles have released with excellent CF/SLI?

There's no excuse besides lazy developers.

Rendering techniques have not gotten less AFR friendly at all, it's just the rise of studios who focus on consoles and not giving a damn about PC. The three named games in the OP are pefect examples.

There's only ONE major game engine that does not have support for CF/SLI, that's UE4.

 

[ShintaiDK]

SLI/CF is an ultra niche to begin with.

For DX12 I actually expect the support to drop even further, as fewer developers are interested in adding the required full support on their own.

 

[n0x1ous]

I finally assembled my dream HTPC of an I7, dual 980Tis and a 4K Tv..

To my Huge disappointment.. the most recent AAA title games don't support true SLI/Crossfire. Is it a fluke the most recent titles don't? It has me spooked..

Arkham Knight
Fallout 4
Just Cause 3

Fallout 4 has SLI support on the latest nvidia driver.

 

[dark zero]

SLI/CF is an ultra niche to begin with.

For DX12 I actually expect the support to drop even further, as fewer developers are interested in adding the required full support on their own.

Err.... Cross/SLI was the future.... but Intel has other plans once they entered on the GPU race (seems that their Iris Pro 580 is about to reach GTX 750 Ti levels)

 

[dogen1]

Rendering techniques have not gotten less AFR friendly at all

And I used to think you were reasonable at least. This is just willful ignorance.

If you knew what you were talking about you'd agree, meaning you don't know, and that's a choice.

 

[dogen1]

accidental double post

 

[Snafuh]

Some studios you should not expect functional CF/SLI.

So much for AAA prices when they neglect PC enthusiasts.

CF/SLI is not a simple checkbox. You have to design the whole engine with this feature in mind. Many devs think it's not worth it for such a small niche. Every hour used on working on workarounds to make CF/SLI possible is not spend on features/optimization everybody can use.

 

[dogen1]

CF/SLI is not a simple checkbox. You have to design the whole engine with this feature in mind. Many devs think it's not worth it for such a small niche. Every hour used on working on workarounds to make CF/SLI possible is not spend on features/optimization everybody can use.

Yes, and being SLI/CF compatible can potentially restrict you from using optimizations that would work otherwise.

 

[digitaldurandal]

SLI/CF is an ultra niche to begin with.

For DX12 I actually expect the support to drop even further, as fewer developers are interested in adding the required full support on their own.

http://www.overclock3d.net/articles/gpu_displays/amd_explains_dx12_multi_gpu_benefits/1

What are you talking about ShintaiDK?

Was this just a gut reaction or did you have any reason to think this?

Dx12 has native support for multi-gpu. You can even use GPUs from different vendors together for SFR.

My impression was that dx12 games will not need special attention from developers to get multigpu working and therefor the support for it would grow naturally as titles migrate to the new version.

This will likely be the most cost viable method to increase performance in the future, so it is a natural push from GPU vendors as well as shrinking dies become more and more complex and costly.

 

[dogen1]

http://www.overclock3d.net/articles/gpu_displays/amd_explains_dx12_multi_gpu_benefits/1

What are you talking about ShintaiDK?

Was this just a gut reaction or did you have any reason to think this?

Dx12 has native support for multi-gpu. You can even use GPUs from different vendors together for SFR.

My impression was that dx12 games will not need special attention from developers to get multigpu working and therefor the support for it would grow naturally as titles migrate to the new version.

This will likely be the most cost viable method to increase performance in the future, so it is a natural push from GPU vendors as well as shrinking dies become more and more complex and costly.

DX12 let's developers control multiple GPUs, but it doesn't make it automatic. It's now entirely in the hands of the game developers, who may decide that the financial benefit of adding support won't outweigh the cost.

 

[Silverforce11]

And I used to think you were reasonable at least. This is just willful ignorance.

If you knew what you were talking about you'd agree, meaning you don't know, and that's a choice.

Tell me which of the major game engines do not support CF/SLI.

Not many compared to the ones that do.

We're seeing games ship like Just Cause 3 on the engine Mad Max was built with but no CF/SLI while Mad Max shipped with BETTER performance, as good or better visuals, and excellent CF/SLI scaling on day 1.

What about Fallout 4? Built on the "improved" engine of Fallout 3, New Vegas, Skyrim... all those games had supported CF/SLI.

Batman AK is purefail if you followed any gaming news of late. The devs themselves admitted, supporting CF/SLI is too much hassle for them, since they can barely make a PC port in the first place.

Some studios are just awful because there's nothing inherently "better" with rendering these days that it somehow detracts from CF/SLI. You just need to look at the awesome looking and performing games that show it. Case in point: Battlefront, the best visual fidelity combined with the best performance per visual quality AND top CF/SLI scaling.

 

[alcoholbob]

Tell me which of the major game engines do not support CF/SLI.

Not many compared to the ones that do.

We're seeing games ship like Just Cause 3 on the engine Mad Max was built with but no CF/SLI while Mad Max shipped with BETTER performance, as good or better visuals, and excellent CF/SLI scaling on day 1.

What about Fallout 4? Built on the "improved" engine of Fallout 3, New Vegas, Skyrim... all those games had supported CF/SLI.

Batman AK is purefail if you followed any gaming news of late. The devs themselves admitted, supporting CF/SLI is too much hassle for them, since they can barely make a PC port in the first place.

Some studios are just awful because there's nothing inherently "better" with rendering these days that it somehow detracts from CF/SLI. You just need to look at the awesome looking and performing games that show it. Case in point: Battlefront, the best visual fidelity combined with the best performance per visual quality AND top CF/SLI scaling.

It's not just support but also minimum and median average framerates. The way many engines render today is just not conducive to alternate frame rendering. Witcher 3 is a great example, anytime when there is a lot of tessellation on the scene SLI and CF gets crushed and actually performs worse than a single card, and average scaling at 4K is only around 20% from 1 card to 2 cards.

 

[Snafuh]

We're seeing games ship like Just Cause 3 on the engine Mad Max was built with but no CF/SLI while Mad Max shipped with BETTER performance, as good or better visuals, and excellent CF/SLI scaling on day 1.

What about Fallout 4? Built on the "improved" engine of Fallout 3, New Vegas, Skyrim... all those games had supported CF/SLI.

Batman AK is purefail if you followed any gaming news of late. The devs themselves admitted, supporting CF/SLI is too much hassle for them, since they can barely make a PC port in the first place.

SLI/Crossfire doesn't work in Cryengine and Unreal Engine.

http://www.dsogaming.com/news/avalanche-details-differences-between-mad-max-just-cause-3-engines/
Just Cause and Mad Max use different shading/rendering systems. Changing the actual rendering system can break SLI/CF compatibility and make it almost impossible to fix it with decent scaling.
It's probably the same for Fallout3 and Fallout 4.

Some studios are just awful because there's nothing inherently "better" with rendering these days that it somehow detracts from CF/SLI. You just need to look at the awesome looking and performing games that show it. Case in point: Battlefront, the best visual fidelity combined with the best performance per visual quality AND top CF/SLI scaling.

Yes, there are optimization techniques which make SLI/CF impossible.
Saying other studios are awful because Dice can do it makes no sense.
It's just a matter of priorities. Spending a lot of time on a feature used by a niche makes very little sense.

 

[ShintaiDK]

DX12 let's developers control multiple GPUs, but it doesn't make it automatic. It's now entirely in the hands of the game developers, who may decide that the financial benefit of adding support won't outweigh the cost.

Exactly. :thumbsup:

 

[RussianSensation]

CF/SLI is not a simple checkbox. You have to design the whole engine with this feature in mind. Many devs think it's not worth it for such a small niche.

This is a huge hyperbole that I am starting to see on this forum. Can you compile a list of all major 2010-2015 AAA PC games that do not have working CF/SLI vs. those which do?

I think some people in this thread are confusing not working CF/SLI on Day 1 or even a month from release vs. ever.

The 2015 games that have had the most issues were either made by incompetent developers (AC Unity/Syndicate/Watch Dogs/FC4, etc. -> Ubisoft is not an epitome of a firm that can optimize many games well), Japanese developers who have little to no experience making PC games (MGS V, Dead or Alive 5, Toukiden Kiwami), developers who outsourced the PC port to some incompetent 3rd party (Batman Arkham Knight).

Every hour used on working on workarounds to make CF/SLI possible is not spend on features/optimization everybody can use.

This works in theory but not in the real world.

There is no evidence at all to prove that developers who have working SLI/CF in games develop less optimized games than those developers who decided to forego SLI/CF optimizations/support by focusing their efforts on single GPUs. In fact, it's actually the opposite. Almost all of the worst optimized games of 2015 were the ones which did NOT have proper/working SLI/CF support to begin with!

Yes, and being SLI/CF compatible would also restrict you from using optimizations that would work otherwise.

Is that why the best looking PC game of 2015 is also the best optimized?

SW:BF says hi.

Tell me which of the major game engines do not support CF/SLI.

Not many compared to the ones that do.

Exactly. Your post nails it. Even facts don't even support this thread unless they are specifically talking about Day 1/close to launch SLI/CF support.

In non-CPU limited situations:

Nano has 64% scaling

R9 295X2/R9 290X has 77% scaling

GTX970 SLI has 78% scaling

This thread is like the biggest FUD campaign against multi-GPUs because of recent poorly optimized trash like JC3, FO4 and Batman AK?

Well made games that target the PC as one of the main platforms do have proper SLI/CF support.

It's funny that the games with the most broken SLI/CF support are either broken GWs titles or games where the developer targets consoles first, PC is secondary to them.

Why in the world would games like JC3, Black Ops 3, Batman AK, AC Syndciate have proper SLI/CF support out of the box? Those games are made for consoles and the primary target market IS console gamers. That just tells us some developers do not view PC gaming as a key platform.

DX12 let's developers control multiple GPUs, but it doesn't make it automatic. It's now entirely in the hands of the game developers, who may decide that the financial benefit of adding support won't outweigh the cost.

Outside of UE4 games that won't support multi-GPUs, unless things change, your statement is pure conjecture. What you are talking about mostly applies to the same developers who had broken/poor CF/SLI support even under DX11.

When 2008 games like Crysis Warhead had proper SLI/CF support:

And then 2015 "PC" games that look worse run and have SLI/CF issues, with magic 40-50% performance boosts out of the blue, all that tells me is that some programmers/developers just do not know how to make well-optimized next gen PC games.

CF/SLI will always have issues since it's more complex, but using DX12 is more complex argument to not include CF/SLI support when it's already been shown that you can pair an AMD + NV card under DX12 is some excuse alright. Some developers should just come out and say it - we do not care about PC gaming or don't have the budget to care enough to spend the resources.

What are you going to say when some next gen DX12 PC games have SLI/CF support (not using UE4 engines) but others won't? Especially right now when almost all of the best looking PC games released in the last 5 years have SLI/CF support.

 

[Silverforce11]

It's just a matter of priorities. Spending a lot of time on a feature used by a niche makes very little sense.

And that was my point originally.

Not that rendering has somehow made CF/SLI obsolete, far from it, some of the best looking games today fully supports CF/SLI.

Some studios have shifted their priorities away from PC for more lucrative markets. Its just no longer worth the beans.

 

[RussianSensation]

SLI/Crossfire doesn't work in Cryengine

You should do some serious research before dropping inaccurate statements like that.

All of these are CryEngine games:

 

[RussianSensation]

Exactly. :thumbsup:

Even games that don't have full working SLI/CF immediately tend to get it over time.

I get it, there is a lot of butt-hurt on these forums by $550 GTX980 owners that now see $660 GTX970 SLI and $650 R9 290X CF/R9 295X2 wiping the floor with that overpriced turd, while 980 is barely faster than an R9 390 at 1440P. I get it, it's OK. There is always next time....to make the right GPU buying decisions by learning from past mistakes.

Using console ported/broken PC outliers to paint a picture of how SLI/CF are failing overall is amusing though and making statements about SLI/CF support for DX12 games with such certainty clearly shows you can very accurately predict the future, right? Like no APUs in current gen consoles, no large die AMD flagship chip ever, etc.

Your last prediction of DX12 support for Maxwell giving NV a distinct advantage is yet another one that has been failing on paper. As I've been saying for years, one of most accurate ways to predict the future in PC tech is to take your predictions and expect the opposite. Better yet too, whatever GPU you buy is probably the worst price/performance card in the $300-700 price range. This has been happening since at least 2012. Please predict more stuff so it's easier for many of us to know what's likely not going to happen.

I personally hope we can see a revival in dual GPU in a few years from now, but as of right now, it's dead.

I disagree completely. CF/SLI scaling has never been better overall than in the last 5 years. The improvements in frame times and scaling % are dramatic from the early days of GeForce 6/7/X1900 series. Your statement might apply if you primarily play Day 1 launch titles or don't have the patience to wait to pick up a AAA game for $20-30.

November 2015 Steam sales:

Total copies sold: 35,943,283
Average price: $5.83
Average discount: 53.34%

Most PC gamers do not buy $60 games on day 1. Among those PC gamers who do, they go for SLI/CF since it's either FAR better value even if after accounting for cases where SLI/CF do not work (970 SLI/R9 290X/390 CF > 980/Fury is a perfect example of this) or SLI/CF is simply a requirement (3440x1440, 4K, 1440p 144-165Hz gaming).

If you have to play games that do not need a lot of GPU horsepower at 1440P, then sure you might not care for SLI/CF but to call SLI/CF dead is flat out against all statistical data already linked in this thread by myself.

 

[dogen1]

Is that why the best looking PC game of 2015 is also the best optimized?

SW:BF says hi.

This is faulty logic. Just because it seems more optimized than any other game(and even if it is), doesn't make me wrong in any way. Unless you can prove that there are no optimizations that are problematic with AFR this is not a proper response.

Outside of UE4 games that won't support multi-GPUs, unless things change, your statement is pure conjecture. What you are talking about mostly applies to the same developers who had broken/poor CF/SLI support even under DX11.

I was saying there are developers who may make that decision, not that I knew they would, or that I know that multi-GPU support will get worse.

Why do you think Unreal Engine 4 doesn't support SLI and Crossfire anyway? It's because of rendering techniques that accumulate and reuse data from previous frames. Multiple developers have confirmed these issues.

https://answers.unrealengine.com/questions/21746/does-the-ue4-engine-support-sli.html

The deferred rendering techniques used by UE4 rely on data from the previous frame to render the current frame and as a result are not SLI friendly.

https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/...nd-analysis-thread.57188/page-47#post-1877829

Developers could not implement modern optimizations to their engines (such as re-using / reprojecting last frame data or doing partial data updates).

No AFR-unfriendly techniques indeed.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I get it, there is a lot of butt-hurt on these forums by $550 GTX980 owners that now see $660 GTX970 SLI and $650 R9 290X CF/R9 295X2 wiping the floor with that overpriced turd, while 980 is barely faster than an R9 390 at 1440P. I get it, it's OK. There is always next time....to make the right GPU buying decisions by learning from past mistakes.

There is only one person with a GTX980 issue here. And that's you. Does my GTX980 haunt you in your sleep too?