Is proper base building RTS games a thing of the past?

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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
That's because APM makes these games not fun for the vast majority of people. Also why games like Civ and Endless Legend are very popular.

I'm not saying APM is stupid. I get it. But games that have APM as a major factor in how good you are at them mean epic steep learning curve and many losses before it starts becoming fun.

I lean more towards RTS that don't focus so much on APM, Sins of a Solar Empire for example. More than that though, Endless Legend.

I completely agree. Takes the fun out of it for me.

I don't like games that are so "serious".

I would agree, but I'm not sure you can ever go back. I enjoyed RTS way back in the day. I'm talking Dune and Warcraft days. I was never very good, I'd build my little base and send some little units to annoy, then send in my entire army who'd be wiped out, at which point my friends would march in and finish the job.

Once the genre became hyper competitive I quit multiplayer RTS altogether. I'd be playing AoE or something online, and ballistas would roll up while I was still playing house. Meh. You're either uber or you're not, there's simply no room for a relaxing enjoyable city building in a competitive environment. As long as you're one person trying to command an entire army, APM is the name of the game. If someone wrote a game with decent AI, where you could tell a commander "Take that building" and let him worry about the details, and you could be confident that it would done intelligently rather than typical RTS AI of crowding around the building and shooting it, that might change things. But as long as you're responsible for doing the thinking for every character on the map, APM will always win.

So I stick to single player, or turn based strategy. That's my speed.
 

DeathReborn

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 2005
2,746
741
136
If it has "Heroes" then it's not a proper old school RTS imo. Starcraft (not SCII), Total Annihilation, Dark Reign 2, Warcraft II, Sins of a Solar Empire, Dune 2000 & Dawn of War all still feature on my LAN systems because they can be played for the fun as well as competition.

Warcraft 3 put the heroes on a pedestal and started the ruination of the genre & DoW 2 killed that franchise as a RTS. Squad based Strategy is not a proper RTS & Hero based Strategy is not a proper RTS.
 

chimaxi83

Diamond Member
May 18, 2003
5,649
61
101
That's because APM makes these games not fun for the vast majority of people. Also why games like Civ and Endless Legend are very popular.

I'm not saying APM is stupid. I get it. But games that have APM as a major factor in how good you are at them mean epic steep learning curve and many losses before it starts becoming fun.

I lean more towards RTS that don't focus so much on APM, Sins of a Solar Empire for example. More than that though, Endless Legend.

Just started playing Endless Legend. Love it!
 

TidusZ

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2007
1,765
2
81
I haven't played it, but wasn't Grey Goo a fairly old-school RTS?

It's very similar to command and conquer but the campaign missions were a little weak and the multiplayer was very laggy at least when it came out.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,570
9,941
136
That's because APM makes these games not fun for the vast majority of people. Also why games like Civ and Endless Legend are very popular.

I'm not saying APM is stupid. I get it. But games that have APM as a major factor in how good you are at them mean epic steep learning curve and many losses before it starts becoming fun.

I lean more towards RTS that don't focus so much on APM, Sins of a Solar Empire for example. More than that though, Endless Legend.

i think the importance of APM is a result of the game developing a competitive scene, not the other way around.

all RTS games hinge on whether you can execute - and whichever player can execute better will ultimately win.

if someone in SoSe is able to move their fleets around better than you are, because they're moving faster (e.g. better APM), they will win.

if someone in SupCom is able to macro better and faster than you, they will win because they can expand their bases and build their armies better and faster.

strategy is *part* of the game, but you cannot ignore the *execution* aspect of it.
 

Sulaco

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2003
3,860
44
91
i think the importance of APM is a result of the game developing a competitive scene, not the other way around.

all RTS games hinge on whether you can execute - and whichever player can execute better will ultimately win.

if someone in SoSe is able to move their fleets around better than you are, because they're moving faster (e.g. better APM), they will win.

if someone in SupCom is able to macro better and faster than you, they will win because they can expand their bases and build their armies better and faster.

strategy is *part* of the game, but you cannot ignore the *execution* aspect of it.

Yeah, but that's not "strategy". That's "How can I game the system and what gamey gimmicks can I pull to get an advantage and exploit the interface". It's the strategy equivalent of playing Madden online and every 12 year old running a QB Draw 25 yards behind the LoS and flinging it downfield. It has nothing approaching actual football strategy, but it works in the game so everybody exploits it.

RTS games were fun, but they have evolved, and that's for the best. Games that require actual real-world strategy consideration, something approaching real tactics, are the "chess" to the current RTS genre's "Hungry Hungry Hippos look how fast I can click". There's just...no comparison.
 

TidusZ

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2007
1,765
2
81
if someone in SupCom is able to macro better and faster than you, they will win because they can expand their bases and build their armies better and faster.

All you have to do to win SupCom is kill the commander, and the player with less stuff can still win. Not much speed is required to macro well either, it's more of a balancing act
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
That's because APM makes these games not fun for the vast majority of people. Also why games like Civ and Endless Legend are very popular.

I'm not saying APM is stupid. I get it. But games that have APM as a major factor in how good you are at them mean epic steep learning curve and many losses before it starts becoming fun.

I lean more towards RTS that don't focus so much on APM, Sins of a Solar Empire for example. More than that though, Endless Legend.

I agree. I enjoy the strategy portion more than becoming proficient at the game mechanics and inputs. Luckily, turn based games are awesome these days and are beginner friendly unlike in the past.
 

Denithor

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2004
6,300
23
81
As long as you're one person trying to command an entire army, APM is the name of the game. If someone wrote a game with decent AI, where you could tell a commander "Take that building" and let him worry about the details, and you could be confident that it would done intelligently rather than typical RTS AI of crowding around the building and shooting it, that might change things. But as long as you're responsible for doing the thinking for every character on the map, APM will always win.

Old/dated game now but you should try Majesty Gold HD (on Steam for PC) or the mobile version Majesty: Fantasy Kingdom (updated/changed/still quite fun!). You basically focus on base-building and you choose which units are created but you have ZERO control over them once created. You can place "reward" flags around the map to encourage exploration or attack of certain targets but even those don't always pull in the specific troops you were wanting/hoping for. LOL. It's a refreshingly hands-off version of RTS.
 

Fire&Blood

Platinum Member
Jan 13, 2009
2,331
16
81
I think one or two may be in the making but RTS is difficult to implement on consoles and RTS haven't been doing well even without the handicap. EA canceled it's last C&C project,

I've migrated over to Sins of a Solar Empire for the RTS itch, once in a while I'll run CoH or Men of War but SOSE's scale wins me over most of the time.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,493
2,120
126
SupCom/FA is still the best true RTS for the foreseeable future.. By true RTS I mean a strategy game rather than a 300 APM clickfest where you are limited by a purposely bad UI and zoomed-in visuals, and you lose a 20 minute game in 2 seconds by being late to an engagement or by slightly misplacing a forcefield. It feels like SupCom moved the genre forward (strategic zoom/icons, replay system, resource management) then starcraft 2 brings it back into the 90s, while every other RTS that comes out tries to copy starcraft. I consider starcraft real time action not strategy. A player with 300 APM + unit control can get to master league doing 5 minute rush every game simply by outmicroing the opponent, not really strategy at all.

every word of this is true.

consider that in SC2 the unit with the longest fire range has said fire range equal to about 5x the size of the unit model;

in SupCOm you go from approx 50x to infinite. because supreme commander is not afraid to give you powerful units.

re: economy in supcom;

macroing (base building, matching energy to mass to resources) requires intellect, not speed. i don't consider speed or reflexes inherently bad, just out of place in a RTS.
the same base management happened in C&C 95 - how many games won because the enemy puts down a second obelisk, killing his power for just a few seconds, how many battles won by hitting his power plants with an engineer, and how many because you were not so stupid and built extra ones, instead of amassing yet another tank.
 
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DeathReborn

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 2005
2,746
741
136
I think one or two may be in the making but RTS is difficult to implement on consoles and RTS haven't been doing well even without the handicap. EA canceled it's last C&C project,

I've migrated over to Sins of a Solar Empire for the RTS itch, once in a while I'll run CoH or Men of War but SOSE's scale wins me over most of the time.

Dune II worked on the Sega Mega Drive (Genesis to Americans) so it is possible to do on a console and arguably with the current gen essentially being PC's it shouldn't be that hard to make a peripheral to play RTS or MMO games on a console from a sofa.

EA just didn't know about or understand the genre so they failed at the first hurdle as usual. Sins is good but is probably due an update by now, Rebellion came out in 2012 and just DLC since then. SOSE 2 really should be penciled in for 2016/7, any later and the potential market will become nonviable.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/121840-Sins-of-a-Solar-Empire-Dev-Claims-RTS-Is-Dying
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
2,559
136
Dune II worked on the Sega Mega Drive (Genesis to Americans) so it is possible to do on a console and arguably with the current gen essentially being PC's it shouldn't be that hard to make a peripheral to play RTS or MMO games on a console from a sofa.

EA just didn't know about or understand the genre so they failed at the first hurdle as usual. Sins is good but is probably due an update by now, Rebellion came out in 2012 and just DLC since then. SOSE 2 really should be penciled in for 2016/7, any later and the potential market will become nonviable.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/121840-Sins-of-a-Solar-Empire-Dev-Claims-RTS-Is-Dying

I played quite a few RTS games on the SNES back int he day, including Dune. The problem was that the pacing has to be very slow. Same goes for the few RTS that have come out for consoles in the last decade. Because you don't have a mouse and keyboard, and are stuck with a controller, everything has to be slowed down. And it makes it just very un-fun to play.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Old/dated game now but you should try Majesty Gold HD (on Steam for PC) or the mobile version Majesty: Fantasy Kingdom (updated/changed/still quite fun!). You basically focus on base-building and you choose which units are created but you have ZERO control over them once created. You can place "reward" flags around the map to encourage exploration or attack of certain targets but even those don't always pull in the specific troops you were wanting/hoping for. LOL. It's a refreshingly hands-off version of RTS.

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll check it out.

Edit: It's on GOG too! :)
 
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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
I will say, one of the most fun (though non-traditional) RTSes I've ever played was a console game: Herzog Zwei. I can't tell you how many hours my friends and I spent playing that game. Battles that would rage and go back and forth for and hour or more, and talking smack the whole time. :)

I've heard AirMech Arena is a good spiritual successor, but I haven't played it.
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,566
15,779
136
I never could figure out why a good strategic RTS on a console couldn't come bundled with a BT mouse that only works with the console
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
This thread gave me the itch to re-install SupCom 1 again. I don't think any other RTS comes close to its attention to detail.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,493
2,120
126
i'm currently playing the campaign of Homeworld: Deserts of Kharak;

although it's part of the Homeworld franchise, it's not 4D, instead it's a very standard RTS, fixed resources on the map, harvesters, and a mobile base that builds and receives the resources. There's research and upgrades, based on a secondary resource also on map.

it's nice, very intuitive (for a RTS player) ... quite easy. air units are OP (as they often are).

for now, i'll say 7/10. gorgeous visuals but unskippable cutscenes, what the f*, we agreed to NOT have this crap anymore.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,072
1,553
126
I havent found any RTS that matches Supreme Commander: Core Contingency.

Stuff like Dwarf Fortress and its clones/knockoffs can scratch the RTS itch, though they are not traditional RTS in the sense of a proper skirmish match.

Currently my favorite of the breed is modded Rimworld. I loved the ultimate mod pack until its curator ran into trouble with not always getting permission and other 'political' problems. Nowadays I am using the "Hardcore SK" modpack for alpha 12d with a few other mods installed.

Build a base, research techs, assign workers to jobs, manage logistics, manage about 100 different resources, but the battles/combat is more or less waves of attackers ranging from small single dude with a knife to dozens of well armed guys and tanks ... you can defend your base with turrets (mostly manned in the mod, but a couple auto-turrets remain in the current pack that you can research.)

Anyhow, its not exactly traditional RTS, but, it is real time, and requires a lot of planning and strategy as well as tactics.
 

Fire&Blood

Platinum Member
Jan 13, 2009
2,331
16
81
Dune II worked on the Sega Mega Drive (Genesis to Americans) so it is possible to do on a console and arguably with the current gen essentially being PC's it shouldn't be that hard to make a peripheral to play RTS or MMO games on a console from a sofa.

EA just didn't know about or understand the genre so they failed at the first hurdle as usual. Sins is good but is probably due an update by now, Rebellion came out in 2012 and just DLC since then. SOSE 2 really should be penciled in for 2016/7, any later and the potential market will become nonviable.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/121840-Sins-of-a-Solar-Empire-Dev-Claims-RTS-Is-Dying

I remember playing C&C on a console a long time ago. I was stating RTS didn't gain traction on consoles but I don't think controllers had much to do with it.

Some of the franchises I had hopes for like Faces of War/Men of War changed but overall RTS games failed to sell or failed to fund, the industry has seen fair share of dead or dying mainstream studios, it's no surprise that genres not selling well took some of the hardest hits.


That game used to keep me in suspense for hours at a time.


I remember just having Russian infantry to repel German attacks.
In the second wave, they came with a tank that almost wiped me out.
I was bound to lose due to the losses I suffered on that flank
but I discovered that the tank that I thought had sealed my fate
was actually repairable. I was on borrowed time already and
struggled to keep the front covered. I had one soldier named Nikolai
go check out a destroyed truck, get gasoline and come back to safety.


Then I have Nikolai leave the canister in case he dies and go out
to search more destroyed vehicles until he finds a repair toolkit.
Next I have him take the toolkit to the destroyed tank while
trying to keep him covered from enemy fire. He starts repairing
and I select 4 comrades and send them to occupy the tank.
At this point I'm fully invested in this mission even though I'm on the verge of defeat.


Anyway, both tracks are destroyed so Nikolai tries to repair them
instead of the gun or turret first and almost gets killed in the process.
At this point I'm lighting a second cigarette thinking of little tricks
to increase my odds of pulling this off, game is unforgiving.
Even though I pressed pause, the 4 guys I want to capture the tank seem awfully nervous.
My suspicions are confirmed when I continue playing, something is up.


The Germans have a freaking PAK38 at the edge of the forest
and Nikolai, 4 nervous guys and tank are all in it's range,
4 guys are nervous for good reason.
I've cycled through cursing in all languages I ever spoke as I try
to negotiate a few inventory changes and recruit 2 volunteers
to run across and toss Molotov's at the German gun.
After a few clicks with some harsh words spoken followed by
awkward silence, they finally concur and reduce their stamina bars
sprinting for the last time.

PAK38 is in flames, the crew couldn't take the heat but
Germans like to send crews to man their weapons as I found out.
I light up another cigarette and contemplate whether my life
would have been better if at the age of 28, I had married
that Barbie from Miami and into her rich family as the barely audible
sounds of a WW2 firefight catch my attention and force my realization
that I forgot to pause the game, Germans had free reign for minutes.
As I rush through the final turn in the hallway, I also realize
that it has been awfully long since I last saved the game.

As I swing around as early as possible to set my eyes
on the monitor, thanks to the superb viewing angles
of the IPS display, I am greeted with a pleasing display
of a fully repaired tank, occupied by 4 pretty calm guys,
with a nervous Nikolai flinching as ricochets hit around him.
Nikolai is rewarded for his heroic efforts with the
commander's seat and a MG-42 at his disposal.

Nikolai signals the beginning of a battle changing
expenditure of ammunition by firing a lengthy burst
at bushes surrounding the PAK38, eliminating
Hans, Franz und Klaus who decided that manning
PAK38 was a good idea only a minute earlier.

The now totally chill 4 guys and Nikolai
of the captured Pz IV proceeds to flank entire area
of engagement, taking out AT's, light armor, heavy armor
and infantry in the process of snatching victory from jaws of defeat.

The totally chill 4 guys should have been more cautious
because their Pz IV along with Nikolai got blown to pieces
by a, you guessed it, PAK38.

tl;dr RTS can be intense without APM BS, too bad RTS is small niche now.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,180
42,257
136
Ashes of the Singularity is shaping up to be the spiritual successor to SupCom. It's early, but I'm enjoying it so far.

I just found it GMG for $30 with their 20% off coupon, gonna bite and give it a try

/Ouch for the recommended specs -

Recommended system requirements - Windows: 10
Processor: Intel Core i7 or Equivalent
Memory: 16 GB
Graphics: 4 GB DirectX 12 (Nvidia GTX 970 or AMD R9 390 Equivalent) Video Card
Sound: DirectX Compatible Sound Card
Hard disk space: 5 GB
DirectX®: 12
Other: 1920x1080 Display Resolution or Higher
 

vshah

Lifer
Sep 20, 2003
19,003
24
81
As a huge fan of supcom/FA looks like i'm going to be checking Ashes of the Singularity out ASAP.