Is proper base building RTS games a thing of the past?

[thehotsung8701A]

There hasn't been a decent RTS games since Battle for Middle Earth 2 which you couldn't get now anyway unless you pay a hefty price nor would it run in 1080p even with wfix.

The gene pool for a proper RTS is almost non-existence now. It really suck that ensemble studio close down and EA bought westwood studios out.

With that said, are there any RTS game on the horizon your looking forward to? For me it definitely will be Halo Wars 2 for PC.

 

[Elixer]

Well... possible contenders are:
Homeworld: Deserts of Kharak (out now)
Ashes of the Singularity (beta access)
Total war:arena
Halo Wars 2
Soldiers: Arena
Paragon
Tom Clancy's EndWar
Battlefleet Gothic: Armada
We Are The Dwarves
Kingdom Under Fire II

and I think I read a few more are coming for 2016.

 

[Merad]

You might find this recent Reddit discussion interesting: https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/40fpm1/what_happened_to_rts_games/

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Well... possible contenders are:
Homeworld: Deserts of Kharak (out now)
Ashes of the Singularity (beta access)
Total war:arena
Halo Wars 2
Soldiers: Arena
Paragon
Tom Clancy's EndWar
Battlefleet Gothic: Armada
We Are The Dwarves
Kingdom Under Fire II

and I think I read a few more are coming for 2016.

Do any of these have old school base building?

 

[bystander36]

I'm not sure what you mean by old school base building. Starcraft 2 has old school base building as far as I'm concerned, but you apparently don't agree.

 

[local]

I won't be happy until someone does better than Supreme Commander FA. Don't see that happening anytime soon though.

 

[Elixer]

Do any of these have old school base building?

No idea, some aren't even out yet, and the ones that are, I haven't gotten a chance to play them.

I just saw a new release of Warzone 2100, and IIRC, that has old school base building.

 

[TidusZ]

I won't be happy until someone does better than Supreme Commander FA. Don't see that happening anytime soon though.

SupCom/FA is still the best true RTS for the foreseeable future.. By true RTS I mean a strategy game rather than a 300 APM clickfest where you are limited by a purposely bad UI and zoomed-in visuals, and you lose a 20 minute game in 2 seconds by being late to an engagement or by slightly misplacing a forcefield. It feels like SupCom moved the genre forward (strategic zoom/icons, replay system, resource management) then starcraft 2 brings it back into the 90s, while every other RTS that comes out tries to copy starcraft. I consider starcraft real time action not strategy. A player with 300 APM + unit control can get to master league doing 5 minute rush every game simply by outmicroing the opponent, not really strategy at all.

 

[local]

SupCom/FA is still the best true RTS and I don't see any games in development that have any chance of surpassing it.. By true RTS I mean a strategy game rather than a 300 APM clickfest where you are limited by a purposely bad UI and zoomed-in visuals, and you lose a 20 minute game in 2 seconds by being late to an engagement or by slightly misplacing a forcefield. It feels like SupCom moved the genre forward with the strategic zoom and then starcraft 2 brings it back into the 90s, while every other RTS that comes out tries to copy starcraft.

Exactly. Only other RTS type games I have liked recently are the Wargame series but they are tactical RTS. 10 vs 10 games can be similar in scale to a sup com game though.

 

[Subyman]

I loved the original DOW. Combined base building with the need to explore the battlefield to find strategic points. I hate the APM clickfests too, so I've moved away from the RTS field and have found turn based strategy games fill the void like Civ and Endless Space.

 

[XavierMace]

Ashes of the Singularity is shaping up to be the spiritual successor to SupCom. It's early, but I'm enjoying it so far.

 

[Vivendi]

Being a huge RTS fan, StarCraft II, IMO, has been the best RTS around and will continue to be for a few years at least, and before SCII it was Brood War and Warcraft III. Other game developers need to put in the effort to polish their RTS games like Blizzard does, but I guess RTS market is deemed too small and too risky. Total Annihilation was a great game but it's too bad Cavedog went under and Chris Taylor couldn't recreate a game as great as TA. I've played most of the games mentioned here, although for Warzone 2100 I only played MP once or twice. The playerbase doesn't last and there's no continued support from developers unlike Blizz so it's hard if not impossible to get back to playing these games.

SupCom: I used to play mostly UEF but then switched to Cybran for a bit before quitting. The campaign was lackluster and the multiplayer got boring pretty fast for me. I think FA had decent balance but Cybran were probably a bit OP. Had high hopes for that game, as a huge TA fan. Really disappointed.

Battle for Middle Earth II was a fun game, besides probably having the longest name for a game ever, the campaign was kind of decent. Again, MP was inbalanced... I mostly played as Elves, I remember them being pretty OP compared to some of the other races. I remember putting the Eagles to good use. I think eventually there was a fan made balance patch to fix a lot of the issues.

Also, the players who are good at one strategy game will be usually good at another, it mostly comes down to getting the build orders right, scouting, reacting, etc... having a good APM really matters. When it comes to high level play, it's an "APM clickfest" no matter whether you're playing a "true RTS" or StarCraft.

Also, there is a community made TA inspired Spring RTS game. Don't play it for the graphics, it's got a balanced and routinely updated TA mod. I played on their multiplayer lobby for a few years.

 

[moonbogg]

Act of aggression is a new base building classic style RTS. It came out recently.

 

[XavierMace]

having a good APM really matters. When it comes to high level play, it's an "APM clickfest" no matter whether you're playing a "true RTS" or StarCraft.

Not really. Games like Sins of a Solar Empire are much friendlier about low APM. Warlords Battlecry was as much about hero build as APM. Even SupCom it depends on map/game settings. Games like Dawn of Discovery/Anno you can play really slowly as long as you have a good order/strategy.

APM is really only a deciding factor in the Starcraft/C&C style Action RTS's.

Act of aggression is a new base building classic style RTS. It came out recently.

It's just a refresh of their old Act of War series. It didn't do anything for me.

 

[TidusZ]

having a good APM really matters. When it comes to high level play, it's an "APM clickfest" no matter whether you're playing a "true RTS" or StarCraft.

I play Starcraft 2 at 60 APM and probably the same for SupCom. I think this is a carryover from the 1 second GCD in WoW which I played a lot of and was the top rated priest. I played with top 100 players on SupCom and could hold my own and win, where as I was low master in starcraft 2 which is nowhere close to the top. I couldn't really get any better than that because I can't play faster than around 70-90 APM at the very most. Playing SC2 feels like a chore to me -- infuse every x seconds or build units in rax every x seconds or warp in units every x seconds, build probe every x seconds, infuse... these are all menial tasks that are automated in a true RTS. If I wanted to compete in who could do repetitive action every x seconds I would have been born a clock... and I do play video games to compete most of the time.

Also should note I beat a lot of SC2 players who have 150-200 APM but if I play someone with really good control and high APM I can't play fast enough to keep up vs the multiprong attacks or the ridiculously strong early game all-ins. I know what I gotta do to beat the other person but can't physically do it, hence real time action game. There is about as much similarity between SupCom and SC2 as there is between SC2 and counterstrike.

Pro CS player? 80% Speed/accuracy/movement mechanics, 20% strategy/teamwork
SupCom? 80% strategy/adaptability, 20% mechanics
SC2? 80% speed/accuracy/mechanics, 20% strategy (learn some cookie cutter strats and learn a few possible mid to late game adaptations)

Look at SC2 casters who watch thousands of games and analyze them, vs 14 year old koreans who have amazing mechanics and 300 APM. The caster has no chance despite being fairly good on mechanics themselves. Even the best players tend to just stick to a rigid strategy whether its a winning or losing strategy, since simply playing solidly is more important then adapting midgame and not playing optimally, which is what all the non-cheese strategies are about.

 

[biostud]

DOW could really need a sucssor.

 

[Ancalagon44]

SupCom/FA still had too much micro for me. You still had to upgrade individual buildings, such as your mexes. It was good, but not perfect.

 

[Zenoth]

It's still there, but the popularity, and perhaps more importantly the demand for it is certainly not what it used to be. But it still works today, it's just that the "mass" of RTS players switched to other types of games many years ago (but developers also moved to other types of projects over the years, it's not just a "situation" coming from us the gamers). But you do have the few RTSes every now and then that come out and try to bring back the working wheel (rather than reinventing it), but it never seems to "catch up" and stagnates (overshadowed by the more common genres), and ends up being played only by a 'niche' of RTS lovers (perhaps with the sole exception of StarCraft II).

My absolute favorite (since it came out) is WH40K: Dawn of War (including all expansions, also look at my avatar, I just love the game but of course the WH40K universe as well). It has superb base building without having to worry about harvesters (only control points, which also adds a layer of strategy since you have to keep them pumping resources for you; therefore need to be looked after / defended at all times). To me it's the perfect mix (removing the annoying resource-gathering, keep the element of map 'exploration' to find and control resource points and keep the base building mechanic intact).

And of course StarCraft II. If that's not 'proper' base building then I wouldn't know what else to call it. It has three very distinct species, with a unique approach on base building for each of them, but it's building a base nonetheless. And many others still have base building, such as Supreme Commander along with the ones mentioned in this thread so far. The base building mechanic in RTS gaming is not gone per se. It's just rare (seems to be), but when it does come out it's like the market's reaction has more in common with someone shrugging shoulders about it than actual excitement. But, granted, being excited about base building would be weird because that's the part of an RTS game that we're expecting; it's when it's gone that we react about it (and remember how fun it is when you can't do it anymore).

 

[thejunglegod]

I would really love to see a follow up to Warcraft 3. That's all I really want. Or Rise of Nations or Age of Mythology.

 

[Subyman]

Glad to see some DoW love in this thread. Couldn't ever get into DoW2

 

[Fanatical Meat]

All RTS games have some form of apm required. I'd lice to see a proper C&C game and a proper sup com/FA game made. Seems like most of the fun has been sucked out of these games lately.

 

[cbrunny]

That's because APM makes these games not fun for the vast majority of people. Also why games like Civ and Endless Legend are very popular.

I'm not saying APM is stupid. I get it. But games that have APM as a major factor in how good you are at them mean epic steep learning curve and many losses before it starts becoming fun.

I lean more towards RTS that don't focus so much on APM, Sins of a Solar Empire for example. More than that though, Endless Legend.

 

[moonbogg]

I still think act of aggression is currently the most legit, old school, base building RTS with resource gathering and the whole deal.

 

[Ancalagon44]

That's because APM makes these games not fun for the vast majority of people. Also why games like Civ and Endless Legend are very popular.

I'm not saying APM is stupid. I get it. But games that have APM as a major factor in how good you are at them mean epic steep learning curve and many losses before it starts becoming fun.

I lean more towards RTS that don't focus so much on APM, Sins of a Solar Empire for example. More than that though, Endless Legend.

I completely agree. Takes the fun out of it for me.

I don't like games that are so "serious".

 

[ewdotson]

I haven't played it, but wasn't Grey Goo a fairly old-school RTS?