• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Is political debate dead?

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,699
138
106
I think part of the problem comes from people not coming up with their own ideas. Which is why you hear the same things stated over and over, they don't come up with the idea themselves just parrot something they heard or read. People are very easily manipulated, the person doing the manipulation may not even know they are doing it.

Plus the general public just isn't that smart, and isn't able to come up with proper conclusions.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Is political debate dead?

I generally try to be civil and thoughtful in political discussions and I see a few others doing the same. Then their input goes largely ignored. Instead, we get 20 replies to inflammatory bullshit with more inflammatory bullshit.

I see the same thing in real life. Politicians, talking heads, and the general public are so poorly informed and so stubborn that political debate turns into a back and forth of insults and hatred instead of constructive collaboration and compromise. Everyone seems to be so stuck in the role of the particular party that they favor and they can't even begin to feel empathy for other points of view, just because their candidates don't support it. Why has this happened? Have we become so bitterly partisan that anything suggested by the other side is automatically wrong?

I, of course, expect this to turn into a finger pointing blame game where each party claims the other one does it more often.
This will always happen when you pit a Haves against a Have Nots.

The Haves as evidenced in here think they have the upper hand for now but when the much larger Have Nots band together they will no doubt kick the Haves asses to kingdom come.

It always happens, history repeats itself because greed and power is part of the human equation, humans suck at math and always will.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
This will always happen when you pit a Haves against a Have Nots.

The Haves as evidenced in here think they have the upper hand for now but when the much larger Have Nots band together they will no doubt kick the Haves asses to kingdom come.

It always happens, history repeats itself because greed and power is part of the human equation, humans suck at math and always will.
So what your saving is the Have Nots are greedy because they want to take what the Haves earned.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
The free cellphones that were made available under the Bush Administration? I was unaware that Bush was such a raging liberal. :hmm:

As for the other three (food/housing/healthcare), those are what's known as basic needs for survival. So sorry I don't want poor people dying in the streets. I know that makes me a monster in your eyes. I bet you're a 'Christian,' right?
Yes, Bush was not a model conservative.

I guarantee you, if you asked people what they felt about free cell phones, liberals are in favor of it much much more than conservatives.

There was another "raging liberal" who made the comment on this forum the other day, joyful that Colorado is burning down, in order to prove global warming. There we had a liberal happy of all the destruction of all various sorts of people's lives, from the rich to the middle class to the poor, white collar and blue collar, in the pursuit of his overall "message".

Why do you think this thread was created? For you to prove your "side" is right? You are nobody special.


As to your lecture concerning poor people, I would say I want poor people to have the opportunity to become productive members of society. I would rather have the government focus on helping private businesses to hire and train poor people, rather than the government giving more and more "free" handouts. Does that make me a monster in your eyes?

There are 300 million people in the U.S., and every single day 7,000 people die. If you say you are emotionally invested in the deaths of 7,000 people every day of every year, you are lying. Then when you expand out to the world... Why do you care so much about poor people in the U.S. you are willing to argue to prove your greatness, when there are so much more horrible living conditions abroad? I expect you to be involved in all humanitarian aid worldwide! Otherwise you are just another hypocrite at the keyboard.


Bottom line, it is extremely easy to say you are for a world filled to the brim with rainbows and unicorns. It is another thing to actually put your words into action.
 
Last edited:

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
It was a liberal idea.

I know my opposition. I know what they believe, you have reenforced those beliefs.


Liberals want people on the government handout train.
No you don't, most don't. You think your opposition is liberal values because that what you have been told to think, through decades of propaganda. Idealogical divides have always existed, usually they didn't get in the way if common sense as they do now.

Manufactured divide so we never focus on the core issue our system of government has been corrupted.

As long as we point fingers at each other the true problems never get addressed.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally Posted by dmcowen674
This will always happen when you pit a Haves against a Have Nots.

The Haves as evidenced in here think they have the upper hand for now but when the much larger Have Nots band together they will no doubt kick the Haves asses to kingdom come.

It always happens, history repeats itself because greed and power is part of the human equation, humans suck at math and always will.



So what your saving is the Have Nots are greedy because they want to take what the Haves earned.
No, that is not what I said but go ahead and keep thinking that way.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
2
0
Many of them have already and continue to do so.

Just look at one of the big shots at Facebook for example, he ditched his U.S. citizenship just before the IPO and left.
Have you not regularly encouraged people to leave the US if they have issues with it? Yes, you have.
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,660
65
91
You could ask a politicain about their kids and they'll manage to push their answer into one of the standard talking points they already have in their head.

This is all debate is in the USA. Ask any question and they respond with 1 of 5 precanned responses. It's pathetic. I don't know why people even watch this crap.
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,427
10
81
We have devolved into two factions....those that HAVE to spend other peoples' money to survive and to get what they want and those that don't want to give them the money. There is no debate because there is no middle ground. It is not going to end well. The ENTIRE first world is on a collision course with complete disaster. Violence is the unavoidable truth.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,941
126
You could ask a politicain about their kids and they'll manage to push their answer into one of the standard talking points they already have in their head.

This is all debate is in the USA. Ask any question and they respond with 1 of 5 precanned responses. It's pathetic. I don't know why people even watch this crap.
That's where the fault shifts to the media and the consumers of it who do not demand better of the 4th Estate.

Even if it comes down to only asking questions about facts, at least reporters could knock people off their talking points for a while and we might get some information about the world and our leaders.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
30,245
3,783
126
We have devolved into two factions....those that HAVE to spend other peoples' money to survive and to get what they want and those that don't want to give them the money. There is no debate because there is no middle ground. It is not going to end well. The ENTIRE first world is on a collision course with complete disaster. Violence is the unavoidable truth.
It's the inevitable truth.

We currently sit on a lapse of time between realization and actualization. Where thought turns to reality... that 'we' don't have everything 'we' want and 'we' know others who can still afford to pay for it. Then 'we' seize it.

They're not going to take it very well when they realize they've poached the golden goose.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
28,856
12,517
136
Yes, Bush was not a model conservative.

I guarantee you, if you asked people what they felt about free cell phones, liberals are in favor of it much much more than conservatives.
That's because many conservatives think having a phone is not necessary. Liberals realize that living without some sort of phone would constitue a hardship in this day and age.

There was another "raging liberal" who made the comment on this forum the other day, joyful that Colorado is burning down, in order to prove global warming. There we had a liberal happy of all the destruction of all various sorts of people's lives, from the rich to the middle class to the poor, white collar and blue collar, in the pursuit of his overall "message".
What does that have to do with anything? Do you want to play the game of finding the craziest thing one liberal or conservative thinks or says?

Why do you think this thread was created? For you to prove your "side" is right? You are nobody special.
No, it is asking about whether debate is dead or not. I told the OP to count up the logical fallacies he finds to see who is interested in real debate. Here is another example for him: You turning it into the straw man of 'proving what side is right' and acting like I claimed 'I am special.' That's two logical fallacies for Republicans.


As to your lecture concerning poor people, I would say I want poor people to have the opportunity to become productive members of society. I would rather have the government focus on helping private businesses to hire and train poor people, rather than the government giving more and more "free" handouts. Does that make me a monster in your eyes?
No, it makes you naive. How does the government help private business hire and train people? Typical Republican answer would be less regulation and taxes. But the real world has proven those ideas to be false over the last 30+ years. The only thing that will get a company to expand is increasing demand for their products. Throwing more money at them or making it easier to produce won't help if nobody is buying their products. Period. Those 'free handouts' you demonize are immediately pumped back into the economy in the form of demand.

There are 300 million people in the U.S., and every single day 7,000 people die. If you say you are emotionally invested in the deaths of 7,000 people every day of every year, you are lying. Then when you expand out to the world... Why do you care so much about poor people in the U.S. you are willing to argue to prove your greatness, when there are so much more horrible living conditions abroad? I expect you to be involved in all humanitarian aid worldwide! Otherwise you are just another hypocrite at the keyboard.
Your argument here seems to be that if I don't think we should help every poor person in the world then I shouldn't think we should help every poor person in our country. Did that make sense to you when it was running through your head? On top of that premise being batshit, I never said I was emotionally invested, so that's another straw man. I never tried to 'prove my greatness. Another straw man.


Bottom line, it is extremely easy to say you are for a world filled to the brim with rainbows and unicorns. It is another thing to actually put your words into action.
Oh look, yet another straw man. Do you really believe that not wanting people starving in the streets is the same thing as wanting a world filled with rainbows and unicorns? You see, you can't argue that people should be starving in the streets, because that would make you a monster, so you have to argue against a made up position in order to be able to win the argument.

5 straw man arguments in one post. Great job proving my point for me. :thumbsup:
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
"Is the political debate dead?"

There is a lot of political debate in the US. However, I said it ten years ago on this site and I repeat it now:

The well of political discourse in the US has been well and truly, and deliberately, poisoned. It was poisoned on purpose to make a meaningful political discourse impossible. With meaningful I mean a political discourse that is rooted in genuinely human and liberal, in the best meaning of it's word, values. A discourse that has the best interest of ALL American citizens at heart. Instead you have a political 'debate' that is framed by illusions, for the benefit of the few. Frames that were promoted to make any political discussion so much meaningless noise over meaningless non-issues.

That is why the US is now a fascist/coorporatist hellhole, rather than a functioning democracry, or even republic. President Obama, supposedly left-wing, is by any decent standard a fascist. When your "left-wing" is fascist, there can be no room for democracy.

You live in a state of 'inverted Communism' - socialism for the elite, where those at the top who have so much, 400 families have more than 60% of Americans, yet those who already have so much, are given more, and more, and more, and more, as those below them recieve less, and less, and less, and less.

This was by design. The Coorporations, the Billionaires, the Zionists, the fanatical Christians, the MIC, the Pentagon, Wall Street, the Politicians and the Judges joined forces to promote their own personal interests over those of the ordinary American citizen, and let's not even mention the people on the rest of the planet.

More and more Americans are waking up to this reality. You had brilliant peope telling you step by step, for decades, exactly what was going on, but those voices were deliberately cut off from the public discourse and ridiculed, as part of the process of poisoning the political well.

I've been reading this site on and off for over ten years to gage what average Americans are thinking. A lof of you are just so hopelessly lost, you have no idea about what is real anymore. All the concepts you come up with are not even your own, you are just regurgitating illusionary frames from the political propaganda apparatus, which in the US is worth hundreds billions of dollars a year, much of it tax payer money that goes through the Pentagon (so you are paying for your own brainwashing), or repeating memes thought up in think-tanks set up, and paid, for by billionaries to push the billionaire agenda as meaningful for the average American. It is not. But so many of you bought it hook, line and sinker for decades. Many of you still are.
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
31
91
It's pretty much impossible to have true political discussion anymore. People tend to be right or left. It's strange really that so many people in this world are either on one side of the line or the other on every single issue. Are we really that easily conditioned?
 

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
13,560
8
0
We have devolved into two factions....those that HAVE to spend other peoples' money to survive and to get what they want and those that don't want to give them the money. There is no debate because there is no middle ground. It is not going to end well. The ENTIRE first world is on a collision course with complete disaster. Violence is the unavoidable truth.
Most of the people i know don't fall into those overly simplified constructs.

Life for most of us if far more nuanced.

Careful your hyperbole is showing....
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
62,308
14,518
136
Oh please:

Liberals give out:

Free Food
Free Housing
Free Health Care
Free Cell Phones.
+ more every year.

How much work do you expect your 'poor' to do, if they can get everything they need to live for free?

Edit,

Then the left is surprised that the 'poor' in this country don't want to do work that illegals do.

Why would they do the work?
And I was against Bush when he did that.


So again, once you give that all away, what motivation do your poor have to work? None.

Lets see

Poor guy could

A) work in a field picking fruits/vegetables all day and get a paycheck. Which would then pay for his food,housing,etc.
or
B) sit around doing nothing all day, while having someone else pay for his food,housing,etc.

Liberalism has created that condition, where people wont work, because they have all they need for free.
In order to overcome your self righteous jealousy, I suggest you quit your job & go on welfare if you think it's so wonderful.

Claim mental disability & they'll believe you.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
In order to overcome your self righteous jealousy, I suggest you quit your job & go on welfare if you think it's so wonderful.

Claim mental disability & they'll believe you.
Typical liberal response. Attack the person.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
That's because many conservatives think having a phone is not necessary. Liberals realize that living without some sort of phone would constitue a hardship in this day and age.
No. Liberals just move from one handout to another. As soon as one is given, they look for something else to hand out.


So far you've given out, food, healthcare, housing, cell phones, etc.

Is there a limit to how many handouts a person can get?

What is a persons motivation to work, when their basic needs are met?
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
6
0
No. Liberals just move from one handout to another. As soon as one is given, they look for something else to hand out.


So far you've given out, food, healthcare, housing, cell phones, etc.

Is there a limit to how many handouts a person can get?

What is a persons motivation to work, when their basic needs are met?
You have to remember that one of the biggest liberal interest groups is feminists. You know the group that fought for the "right" to work. Apparently they think work is fun.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
No. Liberals just move from one handout to another. As soon as one is given, they look for something else to hand out.


So far you've given out, food, healthcare, housing, cell phones, etc.

Is there a limit to how many handouts a person can get?

What is a persons motivation to work, when their basic needs are met?
Let's turn that line of thinking a bit.

JPMorgan is supported by the taxpayers to the tune of 77%, much of this money ends up as bonuses to already ridiculously overpaid bankers. What is these people's motivation for taking this money, when they don't need that much? Isn't there a limit to how many handouts a person can get? I could understand if this money was used to help support the millions of unemployed and hungry in the US, and those dying because they simply cannot afford to have proper medical care, but, apparently that is too much to ask.

Welfare for the needy is rational and just. Corporate welfare for fat cats is just ridiculous and corrupt on so many levels.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-18/dear-mr-dimon-is-your-bank-getting-corporate-welfare-.html

J"PMorgan’s share of the subsidy is $14 billion a year, or about 77 percent of its net income for the past four quarters. In other words, U.S. taxpayers helped foot the bill for the multibillion-dollar trading loss that is the focus of today’s hearing. They’ve also provided more direct support: Dimon noted in a recent conference call that the Home Affordable Refinancing Program, which allows banks to generate income by modifying government-guaranteed mortgages, made a significant contribution to JPMorgan’s earnings in the first three months of 2012."
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
28,856
12,517
136
No. Liberals just move from one handout to another. As soon as one is given, they look for something else to hand out.


So far you've given out, food, healthcare, housing, cell phones, etc.

Is there a limit to how many handouts a person can get?

What is a persons motivation to work, when their basic needs are met?
Try living with nothing more than your basic needs met, then get back to us with a blog about how much fun it was and how you had no motivation to strive for more.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
62,308
14,518
136
In order to overcome your self righteous jealousy, I suggest you quit your job & go on welfare if you think it's so wonderful.

Claim mental disability & they'll believe you.
Typical liberal response. Attack the person.
It's nothing personal. I'd offer the same proposition to anybody espousing your warped POV, projecting false motivations onto others.

It's a disease, like alcoholism, a chief feature being denial. There's even a name for it-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_authoritarianism

Reference attitude #2.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY

TRENDING THREADS