Is Linux ready yet for typical home desktop users?

[drag]

It doesn't have to go, infact if it does go Linux will most likely die as it's core userbase would leave with it. Adding more functionality to the GUI isn't mutually exclusive to having a proper command line. Hell look at MS, they recently released Monad (with a really gay marketing name) which is their next generation shell for Windows. MS is finally realizing that cmd is crap and is working to make their command line more useful.

Look at monad? Look at OS X!

Macheads used to go on and about the technical superiority of their operating systems over 'Dos-based' (which is mostly untrue) Windows stuff. Their 'proof' was that you had the command line for Windows and none of that crap for MacOS.

Now one of the major selling points is OS X's 'Unix core' and their 'underlying' unix shells are proudly touted as part of a 'superior apple product'.

People tried to move away from the command line back in the late ninties. The result is that theyhave come running back in force.

Command line is a GOOD thing.

 

[thebigdude]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. You can install and uninstall just about anything (apps and drivers) in Windows without ever having to look at a command line. This is both good and bad. It is also why the average user will not use linux. Yes things have impoved tremendously with linux over the years in this regard. But to this day when I build a system for a friend, family member, or anyone else, the first thing I offer is to give them Linux because it is free. More that 90% have said sure I will try it. EVERY SINGLE ONE HAS ASKED ME TO INSTALL WINDOWS AFTER NO MORE THAN TWO WEEKS. They all tell me the same thing, it's just too hard to install programs, or I can't figure out how to update my video card driver. I put on my desktop, double click, and nothing happens, or it says it install, then it's not in my menu. It's too hard. Just give me windows. I have built more than 100 systems for people and have yet to have one true linux convert.

Just to clear things up I use both.

(Sorry for the length of this post this is just an arguement I hear ALL the time and have a HUGE amount of personal experience with it.)

 

[Xonoahbin]

You know, I legitimately pwn Windows, especially the Windows 98 that I've been running for quite some time now. I recently grabbed Ubuntu 5.10 (Breezy Badger) and while I find it pretty nice, I have trouble doing some things. Upgrading to Dapper Drake has been hell and I haven't been successful yet. I don't see how your average person, who is FAR inferior when it comes to computers than I, could run it at all. There's no way it's ready for your average person.

 

[Nothinman]

They all tell me the same thing, it's just too hard to install programs, or I can't figure out how to update my video card driver. I put on my desktop, double click, and nothing happens, or it says it install, then it's not in my menu. It's too hard. Just give me windows. I have built more than 100 systems for people and have yet to have one true linux convert.

Then you should be explaining it to them or doing it for them, if they're that incompetent they shouldn't be managing the computer themselves anyway.

 

[thebigdude]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

They all tell me the same thing, it's just too hard to install programs, or I can't figure out how to update my video card driver. I put on my desktop, double click, and nothing happens, or it says it install, then it's not in my menu. It's too hard. Just give me windows. I have built more than 100 systems for people and have yet to have one true linux convert.

Then you should be explaining it to them or doing it for them, if they're that incompetent they shouldn't be managing the computer themselves anyway.

First I do explain it to them. After the 10th time in a week of something not working for them they give up. I don't understand it but when something goes wrong in Windows, and it does, they don't seem to mind. They can run a program like Windoctor or XP Repair Pro and usually whatever they had broken is fixed. One example, I did a build about a year ago for a grad student friend of mine and installed Fedora. He couldn't figure out how to install his nvidia graphics card driver. I was showing him how to and the minute I left the GUI he said, "Are you serious? I can't just double-click something. Am I going to have to repeat this procedure every time a driver update is released?" I had not even anwered his question when he told to just forget it, he was gonna go buy windows.

Second this is exactly why I am sick of this fvcking argument. For some reason I can't even begin to fathom, many linux users just can't seem to understand that the AVERAGE COMPUTER USER IS BASICALLY COMPUTER ILLITERATE, which was the question in topic. I wish with all my heart that everyone would just wake up tommorow and use linux. I really do. It would force software and game manufacturers to start taking it seriously as an OS and actually release software specifically tailored for linux. But that is the chicken the egg question all over again.

To me it just makes sense to spend the time it takes to learn linux and save the money you would have spent on Windows. But not everyone thinks that way.

 

[WildHorse]

So after reading all the above posts, I'm left with the overall impression that Linux isn't quite "there" yet for the ordinary family standalone desktop computer.

Sure hope Linux develops some more quickly so it can replace WIndows!!!

 

[Nothinman]

So after reading all the above posts, I'm left with the overall impression that Linux isn't quite "there" yet for the ordinary family standalone desktop computer.

It is if someone is around to manage it for them. The difference is really that with Linux you'll have to install software, update drivers, etc for them perodically or with Windows you'll have to install software, update driver and fix other random crap periodically.

Sure hope Linux develops some more quickly so it can replace WIndows!!!

If you really care, help. You don't have to be a developer to contribute and virtually all of the software on those Linux systems is developed by the OSS community.

 

[unmerited]

In KDE I just use the mouse wheel while it is over the desktop or the desktop pager to switch between desktops. Works conveniently for me.


unmerited

 

[R3MF]

SUSE 10.1 is ready for the average Joe's desktop now that the updater has been patched. the same could probably be said for Fedora and Mandriva too.

well sorted and feature complete with good package managers so everything is minimal hassle.

the killer for me is games tho, can't live without windows.

 

[thebigdude]

To me both linux and windows are evolving towards the same goal, and it is a good one. Be easy to use as well as stable and secure. Linux has long been stable and secure. While windows has long been easy to to use. Over time linux has made huge improvements as far as ease of use. It's still amazing to me how far it has come since the early days. However Windows has made great strides with the stability portion of their operating system with 2000 and XP, and with Vista they will attempt to make a large step forward in the security area. So at the moment both OS do different things well, but are improving in the areas they lack.

More so than ever before Linux is ready for the typical home user. Something I forgot to clarify last night in my huge posts/rants was that I have installed linux for anyone in the last 6 months, these have all been repeat builds and they all just ask for windows from the beginning. And as has been stated by other with the updater improvements in various distros it is far easier to use.

My final verdict, and then I will shut the hell up about this I promise, if someone with above average computer ability, read someone who is willing to go into a forum and ask a question about a problem they are having or google the problem, is around to take care of the box for people that are not willing to do these things. It will work just fine to put linux on a family desktop. Forum support for nearly all linux distros is great. People are helpful and you can get the answers you need. If nothing else you could try it in a dual boot with a bootloader. Just to see how it goes. I say try it and see.

 

[P0ldy]

If I'm setting up a computer for someone who is computer illiterate, I don't want them installing anything anyway and really do SET IT UP so they have everything they need from the get-go. I'm planning to put my mother on Linux soon and expect no rough transition at all. She's a verifiable computer illiterate and just likes to see her pictures, be able to type up word documents, read email and buy things online. She's not had windows ingrained into her. She's the ideal person to use Linux. If she does need to install a program (which would be a rare occasion indeed -- we're obviously not talking about a new "OMG~! smiley screensavers!!" kind of user), well then there's this pretty looking application called Synaptic where she just types in a few words about a program and then picks and installs it. She doesn't need to know the CLI exists, just like in Windows.

It's only power users and people who are habituated to Microsoft that have problems with Linux.

 

[Nothinman]

While windows has long been easy to to use.

Windows has never been easy to use, it's just that you already know how to use it. Infact Windows is extremely frustrating for a lot of people because every release changes things around for no good reason. Win3.x->Win95 was major and caused a lot of problems for people, they essentially had to relearn everything from scratch. Win95->NT/2000/XP wasn't too bad but there was still a lot of little, fundamental changes that caused a lot of confusion. Just the wording on certain dialogs has caused a lot of confusion, just look at all of the posts about getting rid of the pagefile because the mislabled "PF Usage" graph is too high. And Vista looks like it'll be yet another huge revamp of the UI, so get ready for the influx of support calls as people get new machines with no idea how to operate them.

these have all been repeat builds and they all just ask for windows from the beginning.

Can we ask why you're doing this repeat builds?

 

[thebigdude]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

these have all been repeat builds and they all just ask for windows from the beginning.

Can we ask why you're doing this repeat builds?

Some people do like to buy new PCs every 3 or 4 years. They ask me to do it for them because I enjoy building systems It is sort of a hobby. I do it well the first time they come to me again. Sort of like a car dealer, if you have a good experience with one it tends to the the first place you go to buy your next car.

 

[ivwshane]

Originally posted by: drag
The best answer is 'It Depends'

Does the end user have to download, burn the install cdrom, and then install it themselves with random hardware?

Well then the answer is 'NO'.

Does the user have to deal with custom windows applications and have to have a very high degree of compatability with Microsoft Office centric applications and file formats?

Then the answer is 'NO'.

Does the end user want to have compatability with DRM-protected Media (Itunes, WMV pay for items), or have compatability with Shockware or Flash 8.x stuff?

Then the answer is 'NO'.

Does the end user want to be able to go to Walmart or Gamestop and buy the latest PC games and have the best drivers for the the latest features on the latest video cards?

Then the answer is 'NO'.

If the end user finds the concept of Freedom attractive, wants to play regular videos, listen to music, surf the internet, do their email, play video games, do homework/research, do some programming, do some 2d art, do some 3d art, mess around with making video games/modding video games, make music, etc etc..

Then Linux is fine. If they have a friend or buy a computer that is have hardware specificly choosen for high linux compatability then installation posses no problem. It's actually pretty easy.

If I could quote every post you made in this thread with one button all of them would get, QFT!!

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: thebigdude
.....the AVERAGE COMPUTER USER IS BASICALLY COMPUTER ILLITERATE....

This sums up, nicely, why the typical home user isn't ready for Linux. Or Linux isn't ready for the typical home user.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: thebigdude
Some people do like to buy new PCs every 3 or 4 years. They ask me to do it for them because I enjoy building systems It is sort of a hobby. I do it well the first time they come to me again. Sort of like a car dealer, if you have a good experience with one it tends to the the first place you go to buy your next car.

Repeat customers might be a better term.

 

[thebigdude]

Originally posted by: P0ldy
If I'm setting up a computer for someone who is computer illiterate, I don't want them installing anything anyway and really do SET IT UP so they have everything they need from the get-go. I'm planning to put my mother on Linux soon and expect no rough transition at all. She's a verifiable computer illiterate and just likes to see her pictures, be able to type up word documents, read email and buy things online. She's not had windows ingrained into her. She's the ideal person to use Linux. If she does need to install a program (which would be a rare occasion indeed -- we're obviously not talking about a new "OMG~! smiley screensavers!!" kind of user), well then there's this pretty looking application called Synaptic where she just types in a few words about a program and then picks and installs it. She doesn't need to know the CLI exists, just like in Windows.

It's only power users and people who are habituated to Microsoft that have problems with Linux.

This is an entirely accurate statement that I never addressed. Just about all the people I am talking about building for use Windows in their school/office environments and are already somewhat familiar with it. Which you are correct in saying is why they seem so disgusted when you can't just use internet expolorer and MSOffice for everything.

Yet since this is true it brings up another question. What can linux do to make it, in the eyes of the typical home user, better than windows. Windows is what they know and use every day. It is not enough to make a rock solid OS, which it already is, a cheaper OS, another check, and an easy to use OS, almost there. It has to really outshine Windows in order for people at home to make the switch. You know how much many people resist change, even if it is for the better. Take me in Linux for example, I still use the CLI sometimes when I don't need to when there is an easier way, just because it is what I am used to.

My grandmother, who had never used a computer before in her life. Was able to pick up Windows and the first day, get on the internet, download, and install some geneology (don't know if that is spelled correctly) software. She correctly set it up. It ran fine right from the install. She couldn't do it in linux just because she couldn't find any software. She was completely computer illiterate and has been running XP for a year now and has never had a virus, is able to check her e-mail, talk to her grandchildren who are scattered all over the country using webcams, and find all the software she needs.
My grandmother however, when I installed linux also ended up buying Windows after two or three days on the advice of my idiot uncle. Because she couldn't find the geneology (again not sure I spelled it correctly) software. This guy would piss us all of. "Linux such a stupid waste of time. It takes two hours to do something I can do in Windows in twnety minutes. etc." He is just a moron. He has absolutely no experience with it. Just badmouths it. Sorry back to my grandma. Just like you said I think she had a real shot of being able to use linux because she had never really used a computer before because she retired more than 20 years ago. After this, her first year of use, she has never had a virus, uses a webcam to chat with her grandkids who are scattered around the country, checks her e-mail, buys airline tickets, etc. I agree with you that she would have been able to do all this in linux had she stuck with it and my uncle not intervened.

I will say this again. I love linux, I use linux,I am in linux as I am typing this repsonse.

 

[thebigdude]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: thebigdude
Some people do like to buy new PCs every 3 or 4 years. They ask me to do it for them because I enjoy building systems It is sort of a hobby. I do it well the first time they come to me again. Sort of like a car dealer, if you have a good experience with one it tends to the the first place you go to buy your next car.

Repeat customers might be a better term.

LOL. You got me there. I should have used a better analagy. To clarify I don't charge them for builds, other than maybe a six pack or something if they insist. These are friends and family and I do this for a hobby not to make money.

 

[DasFox]

Linux is not the Windows world. I've used Linux for 7 years and have used most the major distros, and then some.

I tell it to people like this, so they can understand.

If you are only going to drive, and not get under the hood at all, then sooner, or later you're going to run into problems, then when trying to fix them, it's going to leave you at the mercy of others for help, and frustration.

Linux is not kind to those that only care to drive, and have no interest in learning the system, etc...

No OS is perfect, nor is the user, sooner, or later things need looking over, and in the Linux world, the more clueless you are, the more frustrated you will end up becoming.

Don't mistake distros like Ubuntu, and Mandrive as systems, that someone with no computer exeprience at all is going to get away with using it all the time without issues, this will never happen.

I have always considered, and most hardcore Linux users feel the same way too, Linux is more about people that want some degree of control, and any level of it takes some knowledge.

I'll say it this way, if you never care to learn anything about Linux and you just want a good system, and just USE a computer, then you are far better off buying a Mac!

No one gets far with Linux, just using it!

ALOHA

 

[Nothinman]

If you are only going to drive, and not get under the hood at all, then sooner, or later you're going to run into problems, then when trying to fix them, it's going to leave you at the mercy of others for help, and frustration.

The same is true of Windows, anything more complicated than a software reinstall and they're screwed.

 

[DasFox]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

If you are only going to drive, and not get under the hood at all, then sooner, or later you're going to run into problems, then when trying to fix them, it's going to leave you at the mercy of others for help, and frustration.

The same is true of Windows, anything more complicated than a software reinstall and they're screwed.

Yep, how true.

The simplest of Windows tasks are beyond them, and if they struggle in Windows, Linux will rip them apart, and I don't mean to sound conceited at all, it's just the truth.

Most Windows users can't even keep themselves safe from viruses and spyware, let alone, figure out how to clean it out once it gets pretty messy, without reinstalling the OS.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger

Originally posted by: thebigdude
.....the AVERAGE COMPUTER USER IS BASICALLY COMPUTER ILLITERATE....

This sums up, nicely, why the typical home user isn't ready for Linux. Or Linux isn't ready for the typical home user.

I agree. I know people who are absolute idiots at computers...and it isn't rare. When I was chatting with one they wanted to send me a picture through MSN IM. They didn't know how to "drag the picture onto the chat window" so what they did is change their profile picture by inserting the pictures they wanted to show. So intead of seeing the nice 1600x1200 photo I was looking at a 128x128 thumbnail.
I have another friend who was a "computer technician" at the library a while back. I asked them what they did "without adding fluff". She said she just restarted computers when there was a crash, and show the people where "Word" is, and she beleive she is a computer techinician.
HOWEVER the average computer user is SO ILLITERATE that they shouldn't be installing ANYTHING. Everything should be PRECONFIGURED for them to use and they should get a few icons and no more...until they can slowly learn themselves. This is EASY to do in Linux. I got my little siblings to use Ubuntu without a problem this way. One of them is actually getting quite good with figuring it out, although he still needs work. They were both idiots who just knew how to play Jedi Knight 2, and now both do things fine (even Jedi Knight!)

I think one of the worst ways to show a friend to Linux is to give them a cd and say "Go install it". Rather you should install it for them and get what they need running. Then let them play with it. Overtime they may become like a regular computer user and never think twice...or they may get interested and look further.

If a person has a system set up in front of them they will easily be able to use what they are given: whether or not it is windows or linux is irrelevant.

I could probably give my friends who call themselves "power users" a Window install and watch them freak out. Windows isn't necessarily ready for the typical user on its own: the difference is that the majority of Windows copies in consumer hands come from OEM systems that set everything up for you. Dell, HP/Compaq, etc set it all up for you so that you can use the pc immediately

 

[Nothinman]

Most Windows users can't even keep themselves safe from viruses and spyware, let alone, figure out how to clean it out once it gets pretty messy, without reinstalling the OS.

Which is why Linux would be better for them. As long as they have someone they can call for help, I don't see the problem.

 

[DasFox]

Yes magomago and Nothinman, you have a good point I didn't mention, these people need to have it all installed and setup for them.

As long as they can call for help no problem, but guess what? Who are they going to call and get FREE Linux tech support is what I'd like to know?

Unless it's their friends, or family these people are going to being paying to get things fixed, but once all is running, and installed hopefully they won't mess things up.

And I do mean PAYING, Linux can definitely take more time and involvement over Windows getting things fixed, or working.

Are these kind of people ever going to then be given the responsibility of the command prompt with root access?

I've seen many times over the years, what was suppose to be a simple installation of a app and it's dependencies turn into a installation hell.

Remember coders are people, there are bugs in software, then Linux has the extra added beauty of dealing with dependencies, which can really make things fun, even in distros like Ubuntu.

And you don't think Linux users aren't going to update their boxes when all these new, better, more secure improved updates come along, of course they will.

I have seen so many updates in Linux break things it will make your head spin. People constantly do updates to then find the printer isn't working, or the digital camera, or the USB connection now has gone nutty, and on and on the list goes, it's just a real reality in Linux sad, but true.

Then someone goes out to buy the newest gadget, video camera or some new techno toy, and guess what now that kernel they are using doesn't have the support compiled in, I've
seen things like this manytimes, now time for a kernel compile.

That is of course as long as the device has support, and manytimes people get things they think will work and won't.

Total newbies in Linux WILL pull hair sooner or later, there is no escape from this, I know from experience all to well.

Now if their pocket boot and time is big enough for others, then they won't care, but not to many people can fit into this category.

Linux users have a saying and it still stands very true to this day:

Linux is particular about the friends it makes.

ALOHA

 

[Nothinman]

As long as they can call for help no problem, but guess what? Who are they going to call and get FREE Linux tech support is what I'd like to know?

The amount of people with Linux experience is growing, not shrinking. But chances are they'll take whatever is recommended by their friends, so they'll know if they have a friend that knows Linux.

I've seen many times over the years, what was suppose to be a simple installation of a app and it's dependencies turn into a installation hell.

That hasn't been a real problem for years. Pretty much any piece of software worth running is available in a repository that apt or yum can use and as such will be able to handle any dependency resolution automatically.

Remember coders are people, there are bugs in software, then Linux has the extra added beauty of dealing with dependencies, which can really make things fun, even in distros like Ubuntu.

Windows has dependency problems too, infact just recently I downloaded Monad at work and when I went to install it all I got was a dialog telling me that I had to install the .Net runtime first. I had to then manually track down that dependency, install it and try again. Welcome to 1996, Microsoft.

I have seen so many updates in Linux break things it will make your head spin. People constantly do updates to then find the printer isn't working, or the digital camera, or the USB connection now has gone nutty, and on and on the list goes, it's just a real reality in Linux sad, but true

But it's not true, I can't remember the last time an update broke anything for me, even the XFree86->Xorg and Xorg6.9->Xorg7.0 transitions were painless. If that really does happen, it's a bug in your distribution and you need to tell them about it.