Is Koran Burning Protected by Free Speech?

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lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
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You are missing what I am saying. You don't have to try and justify why Muslims are angry over the burning of the Quran. We know they are and we know why they are. Same reason people riot when the Lakers win a championship, they're fanatical.

My Mel Gibson thing was totally relevant. Mel Gibson being able to say what he said and still walk around and do normal person things shows the true spirit of freedom of speech. We didn't prosecute him, we didn't attack him, we called him an idiot and moved along.
I'm not sure why Routan doesn't understand this.
I'm a religious person myself...I don't care if someone burns "The Holy Bible". That is for my God to judge them, not me.

I equate burning a religious book the exactly the same as burning a flag.
I'm not sure why some people don't.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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JohnOfSheffield, so wait, is this discussion about free speech or not free speech? Would you like to elucidate how a Muslim should "read" into the burning of the Quran, if it is not a condemnation of the belief of a billion plus Muslims? Or are you just saying that condemining Jewish people is WAY worse than condemning Muslims? I didnt even put a comparion, but I'd like to know how you managed to come up with one.

If things were that simple...

I'm Jewish by heritage, the difference here is that Jews are an ethnicity as well as a religion and when you thread into waters regarding condemning ethnicities, then the game changes.

You can burn the Torah all day long, go right ahead (yes, i know why you never would too), you can even condemn Israel if you'd like, i'd probably argue against you but i wouldn't be offended, however, when you start condemning Semites, then you have gone to far in my book.

I would NEVER condemn Muslims, i'll condemn those who deserve to be condemned, that includes certain orthodox Jewish groups too, but not all Muslims nor all Arabs...

I'm hoping you'll get the difference there.
 

routan

Senior member
Sep 12, 2010
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Burning the Quran to YOU is anti-Islamic speech. To others it's not. If I burned every book in the world including the Quran would you consider it anti-Islamic speech? No you wouldn't, so to assume that just because someone burned the Quran they're trying to be anti-Islamic is retarded. On the other hand saying the holocaust didn't happen is blantant anti-semitic speech and there's really no other way to interpret it.

bfdd, wtf. Who else but Muslims would it be anti-Islamic to? Buddhist monks? Would a Buddhist monk care two hoots about anti-semitic speech? Masterclass words of wisdom.
 

routan

Senior member
Sep 12, 2010
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I'm not sure why Routan doesn't understand this.
I'm a religious person myself...I don't care if someone burns "The Holy Bible". That is for my God to judge them, not me.

I equate burning a religious book the exactly the same as burning a flag.
I'm not sure why some people don't.

lothar, have I disagreed with your bolded statement? Why do you think I am not understanding it?
 
Jun 26, 2007
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JoS, the priest didn't burn the Quran he just said he was going to.

Yeah, i know, i misspoke, too late to change now when it's already quoted but thanks for correcting me.

And to be clear, the guy who did burn the Quaran didn't have the impact or the news worth over here so that doesn't really bother me either.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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bfdd, wtf. Who else but Muslims would it be anti-Islamic to? Buddhist monks? Would a Buddhist monk care two hoots about anti-semitic speech? Masterclass words of wisdom.

That is his point, if i burn the Quaran, it means nothing, if you do it, you are going against your religion.
 

routan

Senior member
Sep 12, 2010
837
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If things were that simple...

I'm Jewish by heritage, the difference here is that Jews are an ethnicity as well as a religion and when you thread into waters regarding condemning ethnicities, then the game changes.

You can burn the Torah all day long, go right ahead (yes, i know why you never would too), you can even condemn Israel if you'd like, i'd probably argue against you but i wouldn't be offended, however, when you start condemning Semites, then you have gone to far in my book.

I would NEVER condemn Muslims, i'll condemn those who deserve to be condemned, that includes certain orthodox Jewish groups too, but not all Muslims nor all Arabs...

I'm hoping you'll get the difference there.

JohnOfSheffield, I respect your viewpoints. However, anti-semitic speech is not an attack on simply the "ethnicity" (by your own admission, Jews are an ethnicity as well as religion), and even if it was, I dont believe that should make a difference. An "ethnicity" still denotes a group of people, while Muslims are a group of people that share a common faith.

You would take offense to condemning Semites. I take offense to condemning my faith. Should your taste of offense be greater than my taste of offense?
 

routan

Senior member
Sep 12, 2010
837
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That is his point, if i burn the Quaran, it means nothing, if you do it, you are going against your religion.

JohnOfSheffield, it may mean nothing to YOU, in the same way a Buddhist monk speaking ill of Semites would mean nothing to the monk. However, you would take offense to the monk. I dont see how hard your own logic would be to understand?

It seems that the onus your and bffd's argument has become that it is fine and dandy to act/speak ill of Islam. But if it is against British/American flag or an ethnicity, heaven forbid.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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bfdd, wtf. Who else but Muslims would it be anti-Islamic to? Buddhist monks? Would a Buddhist monk care two hoots about anti-semitic speech? Masterclass words of wisdom.

... Seriously you can't be that dense. So if I burn the Quran because I'm sick of Americans censoring themselves in order to not inflame Muslim extremists who may get violent, am I being anti-Islamic or am I being anti-pussy Americans who fear repercussions from people who hate that we're allowed our 1st amendment rights? If you don't see how the other is possible without it being anti-Islamic you're just as blinded by your religion as the fanatics who flip out over it.
 

TheWiseOne

Junior Member
Sep 15, 2010
20
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Burning the Quran to YOU is anti-Islamic speech. To others it's not. If I burned every book in the world including the Quran would you consider it anti-Islamic speech? No you wouldn't, so to assume that just because someone burned the Quran they're trying to be anti-Islamic is retarded.

Basically intent is what needs to be considered here. What are the intentions of the people who choose to burn Qurans?
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
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lothar, have I disagreed with your bolded statement? Why do you think I am not understanding it?
You seem to have a hard time understanding that some people care about the flag just as much as you(or I) care about our religious book.

One should either be completely for burning both, or be against burning both.
Not one only or the other only.

Even though you mentioned you're against both earlier, you seem to be going a bit extreme about bringing up the holocaust and comparing Jews.

Also, BTW in the US I have a right to say the Holocaust didn't happen and I won't be put in prison for it or stoned to death.
The same right as burning a religious book or burning the flag.

People have a right to be an idiot. Just let them do what they want, give it a rest and move on with your life. Don't waste time trying to argue such.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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JohnOfSheffield, it may mean nothing to YOU, in the same way a Buddhist monk speaking ill of Semites would mean nothing to the monk. However, you would take offense to the monk. I dont see how hard your own logic would be to understand?

It seems that the onus your and bffd's argument has become that it is fine and dandy to act/speak ill of Islam. But if it is against British/American flag or an ethnicity, heaven forbid.

No I don't care if people shit on the American flag. My point is that burning the Quran and Flag are equal. You are the one who doesn't seem to get that because you feel the need to justify why Muslims are angry over the Quran burning.

So you don't know the difference between a religion, something someone chooses to believe in, and an ethnicity, something people are born as.
 

routan

Senior member
Sep 12, 2010
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... Seriously you can't be that dense. So if I burn the Quran because I'm sick of Americans censoring themselves in order to not inflame Muslim extremists who may get violent, am I being anti-Islamic or am I being anti-pussy Americans who fear repercussions from people who hate that we're allowed our 1st amendment rights? If you don't see how the other is possible without it being anti-Islamic you're just as blinded by your religion as the fanatics who flip out over it.

bfdd, let me follow your logic, and your constant flipflops. Give me a moment, because I have lost track of how many times you have switched stories.

Now you are arguing that you support burning the Quran because of the consequence it causes, and you dont agree with the consequence?

Are you afraid of "repercussions" from people like myself or do you just want to act out in hatred for my beliefs?

It seems to me that you are the person with hate.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,235
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Amused, and AT members, please allow me to elaborate on the value Muslims hold to the Quran. That is not to condone any behavior of Muslims around the world, but to give everyone a different perspective.

The Quran is not just a book to Muslims. It is an utmost sacred text to Muslims. We dont touch it without proper ritual ablution, which includes washing hands and face. The Quran is always kept on the highest shelf. No other book is kept on top of it. Usually we kiss it after recitation. Tens of thousands of Muslims spend years to memorize the entire text, be it in India or in the United States. Words from the Quran adorn our walls.

For Muslims, an act of burning the Quran is sacrilegious. Islamophobes know this, and know fully well that such an act would deeply hurt Muslim sentiments.

Just like Muslims are encouraged to speak out against extemists in our own "camp", I would encourage all fellow Americans to speak out and discourage such an act. This act is DEFINITELY not in the spirit of "free speech", nor does arguing on the basis of "rights" make this a righteous act.

Many Christians feel the same way about the Bible, yet tons of people roll joints with the paper. I think the guy down in Florida was just looking for his 15 minutes of fame, but in my opinion he has the right to burn whatever he wants. Just as I have no problem with the mosque being built near the WTC and flag burning.
 

routan

Senior member
Sep 12, 2010
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You seem to have a hard time understanding that some people care about the flag just as much as you(or I) care about our religious book.

One should either be completely for burning both, or be against burning both.
Not one only or the other only.

Even though you mentioned you're against both earlier, you seem to be going a bit extreme about bringing up the holocaust and comparing Jews.

Also, BTW in the US I have a right to say the Holocaust didn't happen and I won't be put in prison for it or stoned to death.
The same right as burning a religious book or burning the flag.

People have a right to be an idiot. Just let them do what they want, give it a rest and move on with your life. Don't waste time trying to argue such.

lothar, I must correct you. I have stated the exact same things you are saying above. I completely agree that people can hold the flag in the same value as the Quran. I also stated that I condemn anyone burning the flag. But I do not see most of AT Users condemning the burning of the Quran.

I did not bring up the holocaust at all. Bffd brought it up. I mentioned anti-semitic speech, which is exactly the same thing as anti-Islamic speech.

You certainly have the right to say that the holocaust did not happen, and you would surely not be thrown in jail. But it is certain you will be condemned by the populace at large.

People do have the right to be idiots. If you are suggesting that those who wanted to burn the Quran are idiots, then you're one of the few AT Users who did, in a way, condemn the act.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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JohnOfSheffield, I respect your viewpoints. However, anti-semitic speech is not an attack on simply the "ethnicity" (by your own admission, Jews are an ethnicity as well as religion), and even if it was, I dont believe that should make a difference. An "ethnicity" still denotes a group of people, while Muslims are a group of people that share a common faith.

You would take offense to condemning Semites. I take offense to condemning my faith. Should your taste of offense be greater than my taste of offense?

No, Muslims are a religious group, Semites is an ethnicity, not only Jews but also Arabs.

It is NOT comparable, how can you not get that?

Now when it comes to free speech of course it's fair game, note that i did not say anything else, i'm just pointing out why there is a difference.

You are still not getting it though, religion demands something different than heritage, i don't get how you can't get that, i mean, you ARE religious.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
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bfdd, let me follow your logic, and your constant flipflops. Give me a moment, because I have lost track of how many times you have switched stories.

Now you are arguing that you support burning the Quran because of the consequence it causes, and you dont agree with the consequence?

Are you afraid of "repercussions" from people like myself or do you just want to act out in hatred for my beliefs?

It seems to me that you are the person with hate.

First off I haven't flip flopped a single fucking time. I've said numerous times that while I think it is douchey to burn the Quran, I have no problem with people doing so. Same with pretty much anything. Do I care if someone is ruining their life by abusing crack? Absolutely not. Do I think crack should be legal? Absolutely. Do I think only idiots use crack? Absolutely.

As for Muslims and Islam, I have absolutely no problems with either. In fact if following Islam makes you want to be a better person and makes you happy fucking a man more power to you. I don't fear you or anyone with your same beliefs, just as you shouldn't fear me or anyone with mine.

My point is, burning the Quran isn't always out of hate. You need to accept that. Look at South Park. Comedy Central was so fucking scared of death threats they refused to show Muhammad on the cartoon. They were so fucking scared of violence they censored themselves like pussies. If they wanted to burn the Quran, it would be to show that they won't let their freedoms be threatened by asshole fanatics. It wouldn't be anti-Islamic as much as it would be anti-douche bags who ruin everything fun for everyone. These douche bags who ruin everything fun for everyone come from all walks of life, from all parts of the world, they can be of any skin color and of any creed.
 

routan

Senior member
Sep 12, 2010
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No, Muslims are a religious group, Semites is an ethnicity, not only Jews but also Arabs.

It is NOT comparable, how can you not get that?

Now when it comes to free speech of course it's fair game, note that i did not say anything else, i'm just pointing out why there is a difference.

You are still not getting it though, religion demands something different than heritage, i don't get how you can't get that, i mean, you ARE religious.

JohnOfSheffield, what effing difference does it make if it is an ethnic group or a religious group? You are still attacking a group!

There can be a difference in your mind so as to say attacking an ethnic group is way worse than attacking a religious group. Thats just a wrong view.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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JohnOfSheffield, what effing difference does it make if it is an ethnic group or a religious group? You are still attacking a group!

There can be a difference in your mind so as to say attacking an ethnic group is way worse than attacking a religious group. Thats just a wrong view.

Religion is choice, ethnicity isn't. Attacking an ethnic group is much worse than attacking a religious group.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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JohnOfSheffield, it may mean nothing to YOU, in the same way a Buddhist monk speaking ill of Semites would mean nothing to the monk. However, you would take offense to the monk. I dont see how hard your own logic would be to understand?

It seems that the onus your and bffd's argument has become that it is fine and dandy to act/speak ill of Islam. But if it is against British/American flag or an ethnicity, heaven forbid.

I'll burn the Union Jack any day, i have no national pride and to tell you the truth, if my family wasn't Semites, i wouldn't have a problem with that either, i wouldn't have a problem if *I* and none other of my family was a Semite, but insulting my family for our heritage is something completely different.

It's like speaking ill of your family, that's a personal line that is drawn for me, doesn't mean you don't have the right to do so, you do. I also have the right to protest it and i will.

That's how that works here in the... i mean there in the civilised world.
 

TheWiseOne

Junior Member
Sep 15, 2010
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He doesn't seem to grasp that concept.


so you burning the Quran= Disrespecting/upsetting a religious group for the sake of promoting 1st Amendment rights.

The intent might not be anti-Islamic however the act itself is still anti-Islamic.
 

routan

Senior member
Sep 12, 2010
837
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First off I haven't flip flopped a single fucking time. I've said numerous times that while I think it is douchey to burn the Quran, I have no problem with people doing so. Same with pretty much anything. Do I care if someone is ruining their life by abusing crack? Absolutely not. Do I think crack should be legal? Absolutely. Do I think only idiots use crack? Absolutely.

As for Muslims and Islam, I have absolutely no problems with either. In fact if following Islam makes you want to be a better person and makes you happy fucking a man more power to you. I don't fear you or anyone with your same beliefs, just as you shouldn't fear me or anyone with mine.

My point is, burning the Quran isn't always out of hate. You need to accept that. Look at South Park. Comedy Central was so fucking scared of death threats they refused to show Muhammad on the cartoon. They were so fucking scared of violence they censored themselves like pussies. If they wanted to burn the Quran, it would be to show that they won't let their freedoms be threatened by asshole fanatics. It wouldn't be anti-Islamic as much as it would be anti-douche bags who ruin everything fun for everyone. These douche bags who ruin everything fun for everyone come from all walks of life, from all parts of the world, they can be of any skin color and of any creed.

bfdd, it is a ridiculous assumption to stretch the burning of Quran on the anniversary of 9/11 not to be born out of hatred for the Muslims, who are, with a wide brush stroke painted as responsible for the terrorist act.

The intent of the act was DEFINITELY not as a promotion of freedom of speech.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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JohnOfSheffield, what effing difference does it make if it is an ethnic group or a religious group? You are still attacking a group!

There can be a difference in your mind so as to say attacking an ethnic group is way worse than attacking a religious group. Thats just a wrong view.

You will never get this because burning one in a billion copy book, the Quaran, for some reason is the same to you as a direct insult to your family and relatives...

You just never will and i can't explain it in any more ways than i already have.

It's now clear to me that you, like most other religious people have completely given up your ability to think.
 

routan

Senior member
Sep 12, 2010
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Religion is choice, ethnicity isn't. Attacking an ethnic group is much worse than attacking a religious group.

bfdd, I see. So now you and JohnOfSheffield call dibs on what can be categorised in different levels of offensiveness :rolleyes: