Is it worth my time to learn HTML?

[Andrew1990]

I feel like learning some sort of language but am unsure on which has a better outlook in the future. I have been reading about HTML and it seems relatively simple to learn but was wondering if it will benefit me at all in the future?

I dont plan on learning to many languages but 1 or 2 wont hurt me at all.


Any comments on this?

 

[Ken g6]

HTML isn't really a programming language. It's a markup language - it holds and somewhat formats text and graphics. If you want to do programming in an HTML environment, you want Javascript. If you really want to format text and graphics well, on the other hand, you want CSS. CSS (Cascading Style Sheets) is taking over the formatting work from HTML, so HTML more or less just holds text and some data.

Javascript doesn't have an awful lot going for it as a first language, except that you don't need any extra software to work with it. Programming languages are all alike in many ways, so once you learn one language it's easy to pick up more.

On the other hand, language APIs are almost all different. An API (Application Procedural Interface) is a bunch of pre-made program bits (procedures) that let your program interact with more than just its own math and maybe printing text on the screen. The DOM (Document Object Model) is sort of the API for Javascript to interact with HTML and CSS. But different browsers implement the DOM differently, particularly Internet Explorer vs. Everyone Else. There are APIs that will interact with each DOM properly for you, and this seems to be the direction Javascript is going in these days. In particular, JQuery seems popular.

To summarize:
HTML: Holds data, can format text and pictures, but that's becoming an obsolete use for it. It's not a programming language.
CSS: The new way of formatting text and pictures, necessary for a "modern" web page. Also not a programming language.
Javascript: An OK, but not great, programming language.
DOM: One way for Javascript to create/modify HTML and CSS.
JQuery: The current/likely future way for Javascript to create/modify HTML and CSS.

Do you still want to learn HTML? Wouldn't you rather just learn Python and TkInter instead?

 

[Andrew1990]

Now you said learning one language would help with others. Do I need to know any html for any of these other languages such as Javascript or CSS?

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

I would expect trying to do anything at all useful in CSS absolutely mandates knowledge of html.
For javascript, in 95% of all uses knowing HTML, or at the very least the DOM, is neccessary.

At any rate, given the current environment and the reality that the web runs on HTML and businesses are very web centric these days, not knowing at least some basic html is probably a really bad idea.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Yes, learn web coding. You'll be amazed how empowering it can be. HTML and CSS to start. They go hand in hand. Then how to use Javascript in your websites. As you get more into it go for some databases, flash, and some kind of real programming language like PHP. PHP and databases go very well together but they can be very powerful by themselves.

 

[Andrew1990]

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
Yes, learn web coding. You'll be amazed how empowering it can be. HTML and CSS to start. They go hand in hand. Then how to use Javascript in your websites. As you get more into it go for some databases, flash, and some kind of real programming language like PHP. PHP and databases go very well together but they can be very powerful by themselves.

I was looking at phpBB which I believe is used for Forums, but it looks like some HTML and CSS are involved in it.

I might just try to get HTML down until I feel comfortable going to CSS. I found quite a nice tutorial on it and I am starting to get comfortable with tags.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

PHP just bearly qualifies as a "real" programming language in my opinion. If you want to be a competent programmer, start with a programming language that isn't held together with duct tape and chewing gum. I'd suggest C# if you work with Windows, or Java, Ruby, Python, or C regardless of platform. You should be able to pick up enough HTML to be able to use it within a couple of afternoons, it's a very simple 'language'.

Having said that, I'd take everything I just said with a grain of salt because you haven't said a thing about what it is you want to achieve in programming, which makes suggestions difficult to make.

Edit - oh yes and to answer the question in the OP title, yes it is absolutely worth your time to learn HTML. It's a simple language which you'll pick up quickly, and you will find very useful in all web projects.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Originally posted by: Andrew1990

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
Yes, learn web coding. You'll be amazed how empowering it can be. HTML and CSS to start. They go hand in hand. Then how to use Javascript in your websites. As you get more into it go for some databases, flash, and some kind of real programming language like PHP. PHP and databases go very well together but they can be very powerful by themselves.

I was looking at phpBB which I believe is used for Forums, but it looks like some HTML and CSS are involved in it.

I might just try to get HTML down until I feel comfortable going to CSS. I found quite a nice tutorial on it and I am starting to get comfortable with tags.

IMO you really should be learning the two at once. If you go 100% HTML you'll likely develop some VERY bad habits or coding practices that you'll need to break once you use CSS. I've tried updating and modernizing a couple web pages coded by older coders who didn't really understand CSS at the time, and the code is absolutely jaw droppingly horrendous. It's like unredeemable. Get in the habit of properly using CSS with HTML right from the beginning. The main concepts aren't particularly hard to grasp anyway.

 

[Andrew1990]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
PHP just bearly qualifies as a "real" programming language in my opinion. If you want to be a competent programmer, start with a programming language that isn't held together with duct tape and chewing gum. I'd suggest C# if you work with Windows, or Java, Ruby, Python, or C regardless of platform. You should be able to pick up enough HTML to be able to use it within a couple of afternoons, it's a very simple 'language'.

Having said that, I'd take everything I just said with a grain of salt because you haven't said a thing about what it is you want to achieve in programming, which makes suggestions difficult to make.

Edit - oh yes and to answer the question in the OP title, yes it is absolutely worth your time to learn HTML. It's a simple language which you'll pick up quickly, and you will find very useful in all web projects.

I am just trying to learn just in case I need to help someone with a little code. The most I will probably ever do is create a small personal website for myself.

IMO you really should be learning the two at once. If you go 100% HTML you'll likely develop some VERY bad habits or coding practices that you'll need to break once you use CSS. I've tried updating and modernizing a couple web pages coded by older coders who didn't really understand CSS at the time, and the code is absolutely jaw droppingly horrendous. It's like unredeemable. Get in the habit of properly using CSS with HTML right from the beginning. The main concepts aren't particularly hard to grasp anyway.

Thats a good idea. Should I at least get the basics of html down or should I go for both at the same time?

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Originally posted by: Andrew1990

IMO you really should be learning the two at once. If you go 100% HTML you'll likely develop some VERY bad habits or coding practices that you'll need to break once you use CSS. I've tried updating and modernizing a couple web pages coded by older coders who didn't really understand CSS at the time, and the code is absolutely jaw droppingly horrendous. It's like unredeemable. Get in the habit of properly using CSS with HTML right from the beginning. The main concepts aren't particularly hard to grasp anyway.

Thats a good idea. Should I at least get the basics of html down or should I go for both at the same time?

You can certainly start with the bare basics, but once you start getting into HTML that allows you to define the look of the website (colors, font types, font sizes, tables, etc.), stop and look at CSS.

One bit of simple PHP that you should learn early on and would be very useful is the "PHP include". This can end up saving you a ton of work.

 

[Andrew1990]

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: Andrew1990

IMO you really should be learning the two at once. If you go 100% HTML you'll likely develop some VERY bad habits or coding practices that you'll need to break once you use CSS. I've tried updating and modernizing a couple web pages coded by older coders who didn't really understand CSS at the time, and the code is absolutely jaw droppingly horrendous. It's like unredeemable. Get in the habit of properly using CSS with HTML right from the beginning. The main concepts aren't particularly hard to grasp anyway.

Thats a good idea. Should I at least get the basics of html down or should I go for both at the same time?

You can certainly start with the bare basics, but once you start getting into HTML that allows you to define the look of the website (colors, font types, font sizes, tables, etc.), stop and look at CSS.

One bit of simple PHP that you should learn early on and would be very useful is the "PHP include". This can end up saving you a ton of work.

Ok thanks, I just passed the Colors Font Types, etc earlier tonight. I guess I will go over to CSS now and get a little of that in too.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Originally posted by: Andrew1990

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: Andrew1990

IMO you really should be learning the two at once. If you go 100% HTML you'll likely develop some VERY bad habits or coding practices that you'll need to break once you use CSS. I've tried updating and modernizing a couple web pages coded by older coders who didn't really understand CSS at the time, and the code is absolutely jaw droppingly horrendous. It's like unredeemable. Get in the habit of properly using CSS with HTML right from the beginning. The main concepts aren't particularly hard to grasp anyway.

Thats a good idea. Should I at least get the basics of html down or should I go for both at the same time?

You can certainly start with the bare basics, but once you start getting into HTML that allows you to define the look of the website (colors, font types, font sizes, tables, etc.), stop and look at CSS.

One bit of simple PHP that you should learn early on and would be very useful is the "PHP include". This can end up saving you a ton of work.

Ok thanks, I just passed the Colors Font Types, etc earlier tonight. I guess I will go over to CSS now and get a little of that in too.

Yeah, don't use HTML to define colors, font types, etc. Use CSS. If you continue to use HTML to define these things you'll be up shit creek if your website even becomes moderately big.

 

[Andrew1990]

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: Andrew1990

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: Andrew1990

IMO you really should be learning the two at once. If you go 100% HTML you'll likely develop some VERY bad habits or coding practices that you'll need to break once you use CSS. I've tried updating and modernizing a couple web pages coded by older coders who didn't really understand CSS at the time, and the code is absolutely jaw droppingly horrendous. It's like unredeemable. Get in the habit of properly using CSS with HTML right from the beginning. The main concepts aren't particularly hard to grasp anyway.

Thats a good idea. Should I at least get the basics of html down or should I go for both at the same time?

You can certainly start with the bare basics, but once you start getting into HTML that allows you to define the look of the website (colors, font types, font sizes, tables, etc.), stop and look at CSS.

One bit of simple PHP that you should learn early on and would be very useful is the "PHP include". This can end up saving you a ton of work.

Ok thanks, I just passed the Colors Font Types, etc earlier tonight. I guess I will go over to CSS now and get a little of that in too.

Yeah, don't use HTML to define colors, font types, etc. Use CSS. If you continue to use HTML to define these things you'll be up shit creek if your website even becomes moderately big.

Wow, CSS seems to be a huge short cut after trying a little. Good thing I didn't waste too much time on HTML on this part lol.

Now, how do both the .html and .css work together? Is there a program that does that?

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Originally posted by: Andrew1990

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: Andrew1990

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: Andrew1990

IMO you really should be learning the two at once. If you go 100% HTML you'll likely develop some VERY bad habits or coding practices that you'll need to break once you use CSS. I've tried updating and modernizing a couple web pages coded by older coders who didn't really understand CSS at the time, and the code is absolutely jaw droppingly horrendous. It's like unredeemable. Get in the habit of properly using CSS with HTML right from the beginning. The main concepts aren't particularly hard to grasp anyway.

Thats a good idea. Should I at least get the basics of html down or should I go for both at the same time?

You can certainly start with the bare basics, but once you start getting into HTML that allows you to define the look of the website (colors, font types, font sizes, tables, etc.), stop and look at CSS.

One bit of simple PHP that you should learn early on and would be very useful is the "PHP include". This can end up saving you a ton of work.

Ok thanks, I just passed the Colors Font Types, etc earlier tonight. I guess I will go over to CSS now and get a little of that in too.

Yeah, don't use HTML to define colors, font types, etc. Use CSS. If you continue to use HTML to define these things you'll be up shit creek if your website even becomes moderately big.

Wow, CSS seems to be a huge short cut after trying a little. Good thing I didn't waste too much time on HTML on this part lol.

Now, how do both the .html and .css work together? Is there a program that does that?

The program is the browser itself.

Say that you've got a css file called master.css that defines all the major styles. You've got it saved at /styles/master.css

You have an HTML page that you want to use with this CSS file. At the top you type out where the CSS file is - /styles/master.css. When the browser reads the html page it will know that you want to use that css file on this html page, and will automatically apply all the css styles you defined in master.css to your html page. It's all quite seamless and automatic.

So if you've defined the <h1> tag to be 80pt font and blue in your CSS, text with the <h1> tag that you use in your HTML will be read by the browser and displayed as 80pt font and blue automatically. You've just gotta declare where the css file is at the top of your html page so that the browser knows where to look for it.

 

[Hyperblaze]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
PHP just bearly qualifies as a "real" programming language in my opinion. If you want to be a competent programmer, start with a programming language that isn't held together with duct tape and chewing gum. I'd suggest C# if you work with Windows, or Java, Ruby, Python, or C regardless of platform. You should be able to pick up enough HTML to be able to use it within a couple of afternoons, it's a very simple 'language'.

Having said that, I'd take everything I just said with a grain of salt because you haven't said a thing about what it is you want to achieve in programming, which makes suggestions difficult to make.

Edit - oh yes and to answer the question in the OP title, yes it is absolutely worth your time to learn HTML. It's a simple language which you'll pick up quickly, and you will find very useful in all web projects.

php barely qualifies as a "real" programming language huh?

Is that just ignorance talking?

Considering you can code just about anything in PHP, and quite a few well known sites use it, I would be careful in what you say.

Every language has it's pros and cons. And every language is useful for something (maybe other then VB )

 

[Andrew1990]

Ok this is pretty cool, I am getting the hang of HTML and CSS where I can make a somewhat functional site.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: Hyperblaze

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
PHP just bearly qualifies as a "real" programming language in my opinion. If you want to be a competent programmer, start with a programming language that isn't held together with duct tape and chewing gum. I'd suggest C# if you work with Windows, or Java, Ruby, Python, or C regardless of platform. You should be able to pick up enough HTML to be able to use it within a couple of afternoons, it's a very simple 'language'.

Having said that, I'd take everything I just said with a grain of salt because you haven't said a thing about what it is you want to achieve in programming, which makes suggestions difficult to make.

Edit - oh yes and to answer the question in the OP title, yes it is absolutely worth your time to learn HTML. It's a simple language which you'll pick up quickly, and you will find very useful in all web projects.

php barely qualifies as a "real" programming language huh?

Is that just ignorance talking?

Considering you can code just about anything in PHP, and quite a few well known sites use it, I would be careful in what you say.

Every language has it's pros and cons. And every language is useful for something (maybe other then VB )

It's not ignorance at all. PHP may be widely used, but it's still a tangled mess that would make anyone familiar with any of the top languages want to puke. If you program in PHP and you're successful with it, then that's great, more power to you. But it's a horrible language that was ill-conceived to begin with and has been expanded into a giant, monolithic , difficult to understand language that doesn't fit nicely into any single modern programming paradign, but awkwardly straddles several.

Or to quote Jeff Atwood:

It's a galactic supernova of incomprehensibly colossal, mind-bendingly awful suck. If you sit down to program in PHP and have even an ounce of programming talent in your entire body, there's no possible way to draw any other conclusion. It's inescapable.

 

[presidentender]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
It's not ignorance at all. PHP may be widely used, but it's still a tangled mess that would make anyone familiar with any of the top languages want to puke. If you program in PHP and you're successful with it, then that's great, more power to you. But it's a horrible language that was ill-conceived to begin with and has been expanded into a giant, monolithic , difficult to understand language that doesn't fit nicely into any single modern programming paradign, but awkwardly straddles several.

Or to quote Jeff Atwood:

It's a galactic supernova of incomprehensibly colossal, mind-bendingly awful suck. If you sit down to program in PHP and have even an ounce of programming talent in your entire body, there's no possible way to draw any other conclusion. It's inescapable.

I suppose this gives me one less developer to compete with for work.

 

[Hyperblaze]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: Hyperblaze

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
PHP just bearly qualifies as a "real" programming language in my opinion. If you want to be a competent programmer, start with a programming language that isn't held together with duct tape and chewing gum. I'd suggest C# if you work with Windows, or Java, Ruby, Python, or C regardless of platform. You should be able to pick up enough HTML to be able to use it within a couple of afternoons, it's a very simple 'language'.

Having said that, I'd take everything I just said with a grain of salt because you haven't said a thing about what it is you want to achieve in programming, which makes suggestions difficult to make.

Edit - oh yes and to answer the question in the OP title, yes it is absolutely worth your time to learn HTML. It's a simple language which you'll pick up quickly, and you will find very useful in all web projects.

php barely qualifies as a "real" programming language huh?

Is that just ignorance talking?

Considering you can code just about anything in PHP, and quite a few well known sites use it, I would be careful in what you say.

Every language has it's pros and cons. And every language is useful for something (maybe other then VB )

It's not ignorance at all. PHP may be widely used, but it's still a tangled mess that would make anyone familiar with any of the top languages want to puke. If you program in PHP and you're successful with it, then that's great, more power to you. But it's a horrible language that was ill-conceived to begin with and has been expanded into a giant, monolithic , difficult to understand language that doesn't fit nicely into any single modern programming paradign, but awkwardly straddles several.

Or to quote Jeff Atwood:

It's a galactic supernova of incomprehensibly colossal, mind-bendingly awful suck. If you sit down to program in PHP and have even an ounce of programming talent in your entire body, there's no possible way to draw any other conclusion. It's inescapable.

That's just one person's opinion on it.

Also keep in mind....

PHP is simply a programming language.

There is a shitload of badly done code available to see.

There is also quality code written out there too, but much less.

I've seen code which makes we want to puke, and there is code out there that I've actually learn things from.

 

[sourceninja]

90% of those who hate on php are pimping their own favorite language, 5% just can't stand seeing all the bad code out there from noobs, and the last 5% have valid reasons.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

It's not people pimping their own favorite languages, just that anyone used to working in a more engineered environment is going to be immediately struck by how cobbled-together it feels. And lets do be honest now, it feels cobbled together because it is cobbled together. Kind of unavoidable for something originally intended for much more modest uses, which has been successively had more and more capabilities added to it. It's very powerful and it's very free, but it's just not graceful.

 

[Markbnj]

Originally posted by: PhatoseAlpha
It's not people pimping their own favorite languages, just that anyone used to working in a more engineered environment is going to be immediately struck by how cobbled-together it feels. And lets do be honest now, it feels cobbled together because it is cobbled together. Kind of unavoidable for something originally intended for much more modest uses, which has been successively had more and more capabilities added to it. It's very powerful and it's very free, but it's just not graceful.

Unfortunately most languages that get much commercial use tend to take this path on the road to "maturity." Look what happened to C++ over the years of the ISO standards committee, and look what's happening to C# today, with five ways to do the same thing becoming the norm.

 

[sourceninja]

I learned C first, then perl. So I guess I got over that shell shock fast. PHP seemed much 'cleaner' to me when I encountered it and I switched overnight.

Now I'd rather write in python, but I have no problem doing my day to day job in php. Our office is talking about moving to java however, so it won't be much of an issue to me any longer. I don't do any personal work in php, so I'll probably never write in it again (unless I change jobs).

I've never had a problem reading anyone's code and I feel the design of php5 allow you to have a functional OOP approach to your code (unlike php4). I mean really, 90% of my code is just a bunch of method creation/calls, foreach/for loops, some if/else, and a few arrays. It's web development, not rocket science.

 

[PuppettMaster001]

If you are just getting started you may want to try lynda.com. I have been mostly an IT Support Tech and really want to learn some kind of programming. I needed to learn basic SQL for work so I signed up. The SQL Essentials training was very basic but it was a good start. Now when I pickup SQL book, I will have an idea what they are talking about. I am not sure of anyone else's experiences, but I am amazed at the content on the site.

Anyway, I am in the same boat as you. I want to learn some web programming but found out is a good idea to learn HTML for most of them. It can't hurt, right?

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

Originally posted by: Markbnj
Unfortunately most languages that get much commercial use tend to take this path on the road to "maturity." Look what happened to C++ over the years of the ISO standards committee, and look what's happening to C# today, with five ways to do the same thing becoming the norm.

Anything successful at all is going to follow this path - it's just unavoidable. Have to keep up with the jones', but can't break backward compatibility unless you want devs to consider whether they might as well port it if they're gonna rewrite it anyway. But where you start does matter, and php started out very very modestly.


I don't especially care for it myself, but I have to admit my dislike of PHP is half because recursive backronyms make me wanna cry.