Is it possible to "piggy back" routers to extend signal strength?

[Ken90630]

Hey, All,

I'm having the following problem: Some friends of mine have a standard Netgear wireless router at one end of their home (in a back bedroom). (This is where the cable Internet signal comes into the house and it can't be changed easily.) They'd like to be able to sit in the den at the other end of the house and use their HP laptop (Pavilion dv9000), which has Wireless-G built in, to connect to the router to surf the Web, do e-mail, etc.

The distance is ~ 40-50', which should be no problem since the router is supposedly good for 100'. However, the 2.4GHz signal has to go thru about 5 walls (at least), thru or around a water heater and refrigerator, etc., to reach the den. Even with a Netgear RangeMax router and RangeMax USB receiver connected to the laptop, the signal strength is 1 out of 8 bars in the den.

Would it be possible to "piggy back" routers? What I mean is, could we hook up another router down the hall -- within a direct line of sight to the den and with no barriers -- and use it to 'receive' the signal from the base router and then 'forward' it to the laptop in the den a few feet away? Or do I need a "bridge"? I don't really know what that is -- would it accomplish the goal in lieu of "piggybacking" routers?

I apologize in advance if this is a dumb question.

PS: I thought of using a PowerLine ethernet adapter, but not many are Vista compatible (their laptop runs Vista). Plus, they'd prefer to not be tethered to a cord.

 

[Modelworks]

You might consider a cantenna.
They are highly directional but if your interested in sending the signal to a specific part of the house, they work well.

For a couple dollars its worth a shot.
And probably the simplest to try.

Of course you may have problems receiving the signal from the laptop back at the router.

 

[JackMDS]

The best way is to lay few CAT6 cables to central locations in the house, install Access Points, or Cable/DSL Routers configured as an Access Points ( Using a Wireless Cable/DSL Router as a Switch with an Access Point ), and connect them to the Main Router.

You do not want/can not/hate/your client hate to lay Cables.

Buy a Pair of Wireless Routers that can do WDS (Zyxel, SMC, Belkin have models that do WDS as is out of the Box.

Linksys WRT54GL can do WDS when flashed with DD-WRT firmware.

Using a Laptop loaded with ith Netstumbler, do a Wireless survey in the house, http://www.netstumbler.com/downloads/

According to the Netstumbler's signal strength reading, identify spots that have strong signal. and spot with weak, or No signal.

Evaluate how you can cover the space and start placing WDS units.

Additional Wireless Routers in WDS Mode (Wireless Network - Configuration Modes. ) has to be placed in spots were the signal is good about Half way to the dead spots.

How many WDS units are needed? It depends on your specific environment (that is a good the reason to buying WDS units one at the time, try it, and decide on the Next step).

Otherwise.

Extending Distance - http://www.ezlan.net/Distance.html

Wireless Router as an AP - http://www.ezlan.net/router_AP.html

Wireless Modes - http://www.ezlan.net/Wireless_Modes.html

Wireless Bridging - http://www.ezlan.net/bridging.html

Hi Gain Antenna - http://www.ezlan.net/antennae.html

 

[Ken90630]

Thanks a lot, guys.

Jack: What does "WDS" stand for?

 

[JackMDS]

Wireless Distribution System.

Wireless Modes - http://www.ezlan.net/Wireless_Modes.html

 

[Ken90630]

Thanks. :beer:

 

[EvanAdams]

we use airport express. Remember everytime you repeat you loose 1/2 thoroughput

 

[Madwand1]

WDS sometimes has proprietary limitations, and always has compatibility requirements on both ends. I.e. you might have to get a new pair of compatible devices if the Netgear router doesn't have WDS support which was compatible with whatever else you chose.

Even if you get a pair of devices with compatible WDS, check the security support. Some WDS implementations only support up to WEP encryption, which is considered very weak these days -- WPA with a long randomized key is recommended at minimum.

DD-WRT v24 running on a compatible device let you get rid of this limitation. Its long-available client bridge mode lets you connect wirelessly to any standard wireless router without WDS compatibility requirements, as it connects as a standard client. v24 also has a new repeater bridge mode which works like WDS to repeat that wireless signal further, or as a new wireless network.

DD-WRT in this mode supports up to WPA2, and in a flexible manner -- the initial and secondary wireless networks can have different security (and SSID, etc.).

In other words, a single WRT54GL (or similar) running DD-WRT v24 could do generic wireless bridging and repeating for you.

However, all wireless repeating has an impact on performance, so wired is much better if you can pull it off.

 

[Ken90630]

Thanks again, guys.

Madwand1: So let's say I were to get a WRT54GL for this situation. Reading thru your post, I'm not sure how/where I'd connect it in the chain (this is due to my lack of knowledge of networking , not your explanation skills). Would I keep the current Netgear CG814WG router as the 'base,' where it is now (in the back bedroom) and then hook up the WRT54GL down the hall, ~ halfway between the destination machine in the den and the base router? And if so, will the WRT54GL router then be acting as the 'extending' or "bridging" component, taking the original signal from the Netgear and then re-directing it towards the destination (the laptop in the den)?

If so, this is what I had in mind with my original question about "piggybacking" (but was prolly just using the wrong terminology). Would the correct terminology be "wireless bridging and repeating"?

Please forgive my wireless networking newbness.

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: Ken90630
Would I keep the current Netgear CG814WG router as the 'base,' where it is now (in the back bedroom) and then hook up the WRT54GL down the hall, ~ halfway between the destination machine in the den and the base router? And if so, will the WRT54GL router then be acting as the 'extending' or "bridging" component, taking the original signal from the Netgear and then re-directing it towards the destination (the laptop in the den)?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Of course, you'd need to initially flash and configure the device while being directly wired to it, and you might need to do that for further diagnostics while you're getting set up. It's advisable to keep the wireless distances short during the initial setup so that distance, obstructions, etc., don't complicate the setup further.

Major steps:

1. Flash with DD-WRT v24 (pick the right edition, follow the right steps in detail, reset to defaults as needed and wait when needed)
2. Set IP to be consistent with the existing network. Set password.
3. Set wireless configuration & security as per existing network
4. Change to client bridge mode & test connectivity (locally wired client should now be able to access main network & Internet through wireless bridge)
5. Configure for repeater bridge mode (keep previous configuration, set to repeater bridge mode, and set up a virtual wireless network for the "repeater") & test wireless connectivity. I suggest using a new SSID for the "repeated" network to make it clearer
6a. Re-position & test range of connectivity. 1/2 way is not necessarily the best, and there's no way sort of experimentation to determine what is actually best; the quality and hence speed of both "halves" will contribute to the overall quality and speed.
6b. DD-WRT also allows you to increase the wireless power output. Try 84; try increasing it further to see if it helps.

Steps 4-6 can take some patience -- for the wireless to associate, and for the network to forget old paths and learn new ones. Some power cycles might help as might "arp -d" on the command line.

 

[Ken90630]

Okay ... well, that's gonna be a bit more than I envisioned, but I might give it a whirl and see what happens. Some of the technical-ese you're using is a bit over my head, so I have a few additional questions:

1) Where do I find the link/file to flash the WRT54GL with DD-WRT v24? Is there a link on their Web site, or it a third-party thing I have to get somewhere else?

2) After I get it flashed, I think I'll be able to get thru Step 4 without too much difficulty. In Step 5, however, is setting up the virtual wireless network for the repeater going to be a step-by-step process laid out in front of me by the setup program for the WRT54GL, or is that something I have to initiate on my own and already know how to do?

3) Does it matter what I choose for a new SSID?

4) In Step 6b, you mention maybe increasing the power output to 84 or possibly higher. How do I do that?

5) You said, "Some power cycles might help, as might "arp -d" on the command line." I have no idea what arp- d is or how to use it. Can you explain that? And how do I get to a command line with a router?

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: Ken90630
1) Where do I find the link/file to flash the WRT54GL with DD-WRT v24? Is there a link on their Web site, or it a third-party thing I have to get somewhere else?

2) After I get it flashed, I think I'll be able to get thru Step 4 without too much difficulty. In Step 5, however, is setting up the virtual wireless network for the repeater going to be a step-by-step process laid out in front of me by the setup program for the WRT54GL, or is that something I have to initiate on my own and already know how to do?

3) Does it matter what I choose for a new SSID?

4) In Step 6b, you mention maybe increasing the power output to 84 or possibly higher. How do I do that?

5) You said, "Some power cycles might help, as might "arp -d" on the command line." I have no idea what arp- d is or how to use it. Can you explain that? And how do I get to a command line with a router?

1. The docs are disorganized, etc., but most of them can be located off the Wiki:

http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Here's a tutorial for v4, which should be close to what you want:

http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/ind..._Installation_Tutorial

Here are the main installation docs for the WRT series:

http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/ind...RT54G/GL/GS/GX#WRT54GL

Here's the download page for v24 RC6.2:

http://www.dd-wrt.com/dd-wrtv3/dd-wrt/downloads.html

Use the "generic" mini and std versions.

2. The virtual network is pretty simple once you've gotten this far -- it's an option right under the client bridge, and pretty intuitive.

3. No. I suggest a new SSID so that you don't get confused about which device you're connecting to.

4. The option is in the Wireless Advanced Settings IIRC.

5. Power cycling can apply to both the router/bridges and the workstations. "arp -d" applies to workstations as a potential substitute for a full power cycle (when paths change between wired and wireless ones).

 

[Ken90630]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I really appreciate the detailed explanations and all your help. :beer:

I'll give it a whirl sometime in the next week or two. Should be interesting.