Say, you were in a vessel, traveling on an outer ring, that continued to gain speed. (The marble in the sock as you twirl it around) or travelling at high speeds, is it possible to have it so say, the outside of the vessel is experiencing 20g's when the inside does not experience any increase at all?
Is it possible to block g's, when traveling at a high velocity?
- Thread starter sonz70
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DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
I'd recommend the chapter in any physics textbook which deals with centripetal acceleration (and force). This would probably answer the questions you are posing. However, if I understand the current question correctly, you have a ring on the outside of a vessel that is gaining speed - I'm interpreting to mean rotating faster and faster. Well, if that's the case, then as the rotational velocity increases, the force is going to increase as well. As far as not having a force increasing somewhere on the inside of the ring, then that would be entirely dependent upon the inside not speeding up. Thus, you would have seperate components that moved independently. For an example of just such a device, I will refer you to your local amusement park that has a carousel. (Merry go round). Around the outside, you have a ring, the speed of which can be increased. Simultaneously, the ride operator can hang out at the center without spinning around. Thus, he is undergoing no change in centripetal acceleration.
however, if the ship was a one peice cylinder, there could be increasing forces on the outer edge while there remained zero force at the center (spinning on it's longitudinal axis, of course). Similarly, if you had a conical structure rotating at a constant speed, you would have differing g forces applied at different levels within the structure. Perhaps 1g in the middle of the cone, almost 3 at the widest point, and only .2 at the tip (provided your standing on surface, spinning at the same speed as the structure), all while the structure is gaining no speed at all.
Sorry, I just reread your post title. Thats an interesting question. I'd say it's possible, but only for the length of the ship that your ring could traverse before the total distance travelled by the ship exceeds that. So, less force could be inflicted on a passenger for perhaps several seconds during acceleration, but the force inflicted when you ran out of room for compensation would then be applied, seeing as how reletive to the ship, your travelling the opposite direction at some velocity. Like a car hitting a brick wall at 60, or two cars hitting head on at 30 each. same forces applied.
I think it could work for the duration of a trip (however long that is), but it would be negligible because the movement of the ring opposite the acceleration of the ship would be incredibly slow.
Oh lord, I'm rambling. My apologies. And if my thoughts are unclear or I can be corrected by someone else, please interject.
Sorry, I just reread your post title. Thats an interesting question. I'd say it's possible, but only for the length of the ship that your ring could traverse before the total distance travelled by the ship exceeds that. So, less force could be inflicted on a passenger for perhaps several seconds during acceleration, but the force inflicted when you ran out of room for compensation would then be applied, seeing as how reletive to the ship, your travelling the opposite direction at some velocity. Like a car hitting a brick wall at 60, or two cars hitting head on at 30 each. same forces applied.
I think it could work for the duration of a trip (however long that is), but it would be negligible because the movement of the ring opposite the acceleration of the ship would be incredibly slow.
Oh lord, I'm rambling. My apologies. And if my thoughts are unclear or I can be corrected by someone else, please interject.
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
interjecting:
two cars hitting head on at 30 each isn't the same as 1 into a brick wall at 60.
For help understanding this:
Get a great big sheet of kevlar or something that wouldn't allow the driver to see what it just impacted.
a) put the kevlar against a solid, unbreakable (by the car) brick wall.
b) hand the kevlar at a position such that an identical car will strike the other side at the same time.
In both cases, the car will go from 60mph to 0mph. (unless it bounces off)
The kevlar, for the most part, will remain relatively stationary in the center between the car and car or wall.
The only difference is that in the brick wall case, the wall (not breaking), will absorb some of the energy in the form of heat. (I was corrected on this point about a year ago in this forum)
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
For an interesting side discussion, what if you're in a ring that's spinning, creating artificial gravity, and you run in the opposite direction at the same speed at which it is rotating?? Allow for magnetic boots or something...
Man, no joke on the "Highly Technical" label given to this forum!
This is my first time in this forum and I've been sitting here reading for three hours. It's nice to read about technical jargon simplified so my unlearned brain can wrap around things and ideas. I think it's awesome that I write a generic explanation about the exchange of forces (the ever popular car hitting the wall) and I recieve a reply in turn explaining the more technical details enshrouding the matter. Thanks! I'm hooked!
As far as the idea proposed; if you could run at the same speed in the opposite direction of rotation, you'd float in zero gravity. If you think about the direction of your forward movement achieved by the rings rotation as a tangent of the ring, it's "throwing" you into the upcoming rise of the curve of the ring, infinitely. It's constantly throwing and catching. So you run backward, elminating it's throw... and float. Does that seem to make sense?
Hmm... Ok, those are interesting, but I think I phrased my question wrong,
Say you are in a cyllinder, 20 feet long, 10 circumference, so small, but livable, you manage to get to a speed of .6C
How would you keep the G force from affecting the person inside the cyllinder? so that it doesn't affect the person at all.
Say you are in a cyllinder, 20 feet long, 10 circumference, so small, but livable, you manage to get to a speed of .6C
How would you keep the G force from affecting the person inside the cyllinder? so that it doesn't affect the person at all.
I don't understand the question as re-posited. You asked first if it's possible for someone on the inside of a spinning ring to not feel force. Centripetal Force is measured as:
F=(m*v^2)/r
where m is the mass of the object you're measuring, v is the tangential velocity and r is the radius of the circle.
Tangential velocity is measured as:
v=w*r
where w = 2*pi*(dtheta/dt) where dtheta/dt and is the angular velocity.
so
F=(Mw^2*r^2)/r=w^2*r
In the case of a spinning vessel with a constant angular velocity, w, the closer you get to the axis of rotation the smaller the centripetal Force.
You understand this intuitively if you've stood at the center of a merry-go-round where you spin around but if you're at the edge you experience a lot of force. So the answer to your question is that those at the center of the spinning vessel would feel little force while those toward the edge would experience more force.
Note, that centripetal force does not require an increasing tangential velocity - a constant tangential velocity will cause the force.
When you restated your question it sounded like now you're asking about a cylinder travelling through space at a constant linear velocity. In such a case, without any acceleration, there is no accelerating force felt by the ship or any inside of it.
F=(m*v^2)/r
where m is the mass of the object you're measuring, v is the tangential velocity and r is the radius of the circle.
Tangential velocity is measured as:
v=w*r
where w = 2*pi*(dtheta/dt) where dtheta/dt and is the angular velocity.
so
F=(Mw^2*r^2)/r=w^2*r
In the case of a spinning vessel with a constant angular velocity, w, the closer you get to the axis of rotation the smaller the centripetal Force.
You understand this intuitively if you've stood at the center of a merry-go-round where you spin around but if you're at the edge you experience a lot of force. So the answer to your question is that those at the center of the spinning vessel would feel little force while those toward the edge would experience more force.
Note, that centripetal force does not require an increasing tangential velocity - a constant tangential velocity will cause the force.
When you restated your question it sounded like now you're asking about a cylinder travelling through space at a constant linear velocity. In such a case, without any acceleration, there is no accelerating force felt by the ship or any inside of it.
I think I tried to explain one possible answer to your question as I understood it here:
It's the force applied during acceleration to .6c that you want to shed. Thinking logically, this was the only way I could see that would shed g forces during a posistive g burn. But the either the time length of forces lost, or the amount of the forces lost, would be negligible.
Unless you could figure out a way to manipulate the Higgs field... =P
It's the force applied during acceleration to .6c that you want to shed. Thinking logically, this was the only way I could see that would shed g forces during a posistive g burn. But the either the time length of forces lost, or the amount of the forces lost, would be negligible.
Unless you could figure out a way to manipulate the Higgs field... =P
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Ahhhhhh, I understand what the original question was asking!
Answer: No.
(edit: I had been trying to make sense of it in the context of another related thread)
Answer: No.
(edit: I had been trying to make sense of it in the context of another related thread)
Ok, maybe I phrased it totally wrong here.
Imagine a giant slingshot, used to launch vessels past earths gravity into space, Is it possible to block the g's one feels as the slingshots is completing its circle, slowling going faster and faster, adding more and more g's to the cylinder.
Or, on the acceleration to say .5c can you block the g's one feels?
Yes, travelling at 70mpg, you will not feel it, but if I go from 0-70 in 5 seconds, you will feel it, think of going from say, 0 - .5C in 5 seconds, how would you block the g's that you would feel on the acceleration?
Imagine a giant slingshot, used to launch vessels past earths gravity into space, Is it possible to block the g's one feels as the slingshots is completing its circle, slowling going faster and faster, adding more and more g's to the cylinder.
Or, on the acceleration to say .5c can you block the g's one feels?
Yes, travelling at 70mpg, you will not feel it, but if I go from 0-70 in 5 seconds, you will feel it, think of going from say, 0 - .5C in 5 seconds, how would you block the g's that you would feel on the acceleration?
You don't.
The "g-force" is the acceleration. No acceleration means you feel no "g-force", but also that you don't change velocity (speed or direction). If you change velocity, you must accelerate. If you accelerate then you must feel the "g-force"
In an acceleration from 0-.5c in 5 seconds you wouldn't feel any acceleration whatsoever. That's because you'd be smashed to a pulp well before your brain recieved the nueral impulses =P
Ok, so now I finally got it through how I wanted it lol. I understand what you are saying, with the g-force is acceleration, and the "you would be smashed to a pulp" . Ok, so that is the problem that I am trying to solve, what would you have to do in order to be able to accelerate, without feeling g-forces, or be "smashed to a pulp".
silverpig
Lifer
- Jul 29, 2001
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I'd have to do the math, but if you wanted to accelerate at .5g and feel no force, you could stick a huge mass in front of you, such that your weight on this body is .5 of what you would weigh on earth. Of course, that makes it difficult because you'd now have to accelerate this massive object as well.
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
This reminds me of an interesting discussion I had with a couple of physics profs. The human body, if enclosed in a windowless "vehicle" would be unable to detect if it was in motion at a constant velocity or at rest. I had no problem accepting this.
However, one of the profs went on to explain that for relatively low accelerations, the human body is also unable to detect it, and the acceleration could be masked by using a combination of rotating the body at a certain rate while accelerating it. I wish I could remember exactly how he convinced me (and the other profs who were there), but it had to do something with blindfolding someone, putting them in the back of a car, and driving downhill, then going uphill coasting
or was it driving downhill, then accelerating uphill? Coasting downhill? I don't remember the whole thing... I wish I did.
But, have you ever been at a stoplight and the car next to you started rolling backwards (standard transmission in neutral) and you felt you were moving forward so you slammed on the brakes even harder? Cues from your eyes make up a huge amount of our perception of motion and perception of acceleration. For the car experiment - just look at virtual reality rides... they make you feel like you're accelerating simply by tilting your seat back and moving where the image is on the theater walls/ceiling. You can do the opposite to remove the feeling of acceleration (to an extent) Of course, if the acceleration is 100G's, you're going to be jello in a matter of 1/100th of a second or so.
However, one of the profs went on to explain that for relatively low accelerations, the human body is also unable to detect it, and the acceleration could be masked by using a combination of rotating the body at a certain rate while accelerating it. I wish I could remember exactly how he convinced me (and the other profs who were there), but it had to do something with blindfolding someone, putting them in the back of a car, and driving downhill, then going uphill coasting
or was it driving downhill, then accelerating uphill? Coasting downhill? I don't remember the whole thing... I wish I did.
But, have you ever been at a stoplight and the car next to you started rolling backwards (standard transmission in neutral) and you felt you were moving forward so you slammed on the brakes even harder? Cues from your eyes make up a huge amount of our perception of motion and perception of acceleration. For the car experiment - just look at virtual reality rides... they make you feel like you're accelerating simply by tilting your seat back and moving where the image is on the theater walls/ceiling. You can do the opposite to remove the feeling of acceleration (to an extent) Of course, if the acceleration is 100G's, you're going to be jello in a matter of 1/100th of a second or so.
Very simple - you go back to zero gravity. Considering the centroid of the ring to be our inertial reference point, you're not accelerating and so you feel no force.
Simple answer - you can't. In order to accelerate you have to be subjected to a force. You can't block that force withour stopping the acceleration.
In terms of all these problems you need to construct a basic model with your important points determined and the forces written on. Most of these hypothetical situations are incredibly easy to solve if you just sit down and rationally analyse the problem.
In Krauss book "The physics of Star Trek" there is a section on the "inertial dampers" which I guess is what you would need. In that section he also discusses why we would need learn to somehow manipulate space-time before we could actuallybuild something like that.
It is a good book and fun to read.
It is a good book and fun to read.
the "inertial dampers" are essentially Higgs field manipulators. Manipulating the Higgs field would solve all of our problems. You could simply cause the vessel (yourself included) to "fall" in whichever direction you wanted to travel, at pretty much whatever velocity. Or you could build your massive, near c, propulsion drives and simply nullify the Higgs field inside the ship. But thats a little too easy an answer I suppose. I'll sleep on it and tell you the solution to controlling the Higgs Field tomorrow =P
how do you figure silver? They maintain a constant orbital velocity, and as a result, feel no inertial forces. Velocity and acceleration are two different things.
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