Is it possible for criminals to sell electronics intentionally infected with malware?

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Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,890
5,001
126
So you're ok with your every move online and offline being tracked by these companies? Well I'm not. You don't really "sign up" for that. Nobody reads those 2,000 page TOSes, and even if you don't use their services they still have ways to track your every move and create a shadow profile of you. It's really sad that it seems people are actually ok with this kind of stuff.

You've got to be kidding me right? You most DEFINITELY "sign up" for that when you create an account on Facebook and the like. If you don't read the TOSes of any service you voluntarily sign up for, then you have no right to complain about those services. I assure you, if you don not have a Facebook account, Facebook is not tracking you through Facebook.
Jesus Christ...
 

NesuD

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,999
106
106
Worry less about criminal groups; worry more about state actors.
This ^^^^ Our own government intelligence agencys have done this and i Imagine still are. They intercept things like laptops in transit give it an extra special little software modification and send it on its way to the target.
 

Platypus

Lifer
Apr 26, 2001
31,046
321
136
Where does the majority of the fault belong with?
Is it Google for not enforcing sane update polices?
OEMs for not caring?
Is it the "everyday" user being so ill informed about vulnerabilities?

I also think this is a PR problem in that, people throw a hissy fit because of windows 10 "spying", but turn a blind eye with their phones because they are under the false impression that it don't spy on them, when it does more actual spying than anything windows 10 does.

I'm glad you asked :)

The fault is on all sides, but the majority in my opinion lies with carriers. The below pertains to Android devices specifically... iOS devices is a different beast and belongs in a different conversation.

* Carriers: Carriers want to move new phones instead of support old ones. Unfortunately in Android land, the US (and other) carriers get the final say on builds that get pushed out via OTA (over the air) updates to their devices, which increases complexity by a massive amount. There is way less incentive for them to pay their engineers to test and vet builds they receive from OEMs for older devices that they don't even sell anymore than it is to just try to sell a new device to you.

*Consumers: Consumers want the latest devices with new features constantly. OEMs scramble to push the bounds of technology constantly and add in new things to entice customers to purchase the newer phones. Unfortunately this causes a lot of things to get rolled out as soon as possible without being properly tested for the security implications involved with all the new fun things your phone can do for you. Most don't care about the security features of an OTA update at all, but rather how things look and if the phone runs better afterwords.

*OEMS: OEMs receive fixes from Google very early, but many times it takes them a lot of effort to get that to all the devices they support. For stupid reasons that I will get angry about typing out, OEMs maintain DOZENS of variants of the same damn device with small, subtle differences. Sadly, this means separate code bases for every device. That means instead of just rolling the patch into a master repo, it has to be done to all available variants of the device and tested on all available variants. Many times, the same device.. let's say the Galaxy S5 as an example, even has different hardware depending on which carrier you purchase it on. This makes sense for things like CDMA/GSM differences, but even things like WiFi and NFC chipsets have different hardware, due to the SoC needed to be compatible with everything else on the device. This means it takes an absurd amount of time to get something from Google, get it to the carriers, get it tested, then for the carrier to push to the device.

*Google: Google actually has to care about security of the ecosystem and has been behind the 8-ball forever because of how many moving parts are involved in Android and how much of it is actually outside of their control. They don't write the code for proprietary things like Qualcomm hardware, so they rely on receiving that code from other players in the phone space. Many of the vulnerabilities in these devices come from code that Google didn't even write and has no choice but to use. Google tracks this stuff and does a pretty decent (but not as good as Apple imo) job of vetting bugs and fixing them in Android quickly. The problem is that it might takes anywhere from 6-8 months typically for a bug to get fixed for it to actually make it to a handset. This is because of all the other shit I mentioned above heh. A further complication is that OEMs extend and hack the shit out of Google's code, Samsung is the worst offender here. They literally change fundamental things which make it impossible for OEMs to just cleanly paste in a fix in many cases, because the patches just wont cleanly apply at all due to all the various changes that have been made to the code base.

Sorry for the long winded response, I have truncated this extremely if you can believe that ;)
 
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Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,157
13,567
126
www.anyf.ca
You've got to be kidding me right? You most DEFINITELY "sign up" for that when you create an account on Facebook and the like. If you don't read the TOSes of any service you voluntarily sign up for, then you have no right to complain about those services. I assure you, if you don not have a Facebook account, Facebook is not tracking you through Facebook.
Jesus Christ...

Did YOU read the TOS? Some of those are longer than the entire LOTR triology books except it's dry legalese. They are purposely made long so nobody actually reads them. It does not make it right, from a moral standpoint. Some of the stuff FB and Google does is sketchy as hell. For example with Facebook, they actually scan mobile phones and collect all the contact information. That means if you have friends who have Facebook, they're probably tracking you too. They also track all your searches and web browsing activity even on non facebook sites. Spying is huge now days, everybody is in on it including the government. It's gotten pretty bad. Google is just as bad too it's just there seems to be more info about Facebook. They do weird stuff to track you even on sites they don't control.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=facebook+shadow+profile&t=h_&ia=web
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=facebook+tracking+you&ia=web
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=google+tracking+you&ia=web

I guess this is a bit OT at this point, but original point was that even "non malware" stuff is often malware these days. Spyware, to be more specific.
 
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Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,157
13,567
126
www.anyf.ca
Unless some armed thug employed by Facebook or Google walked into your house and forced you at gunpoint to sign up for those services you have nothing to whine about.

Facebook and google still tracks you even if you don't sign up. A lot of other companies do it too. There are several big data companies out there that collect IRL info too like your credit card transactions then share it with google, facebook etc. In some cases it also listens to your conversations. That was the whole idea behind those Samsung TVs. This spying stuff is everywhere, and it's very scary. It's like having several people following you around and writing everything you do on a clip board then selling the info to companies who can do more with it. Just because you can't see it does not mean it's not happening.
 

Rifter

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,522
751
126
Did YOU read the TOS? Some of those are longer than the entire LOTR triology books except it's dry legalese. They are purposely made long so nobody actually reads them. It does not make it right, from a moral standpoint. Some of the stuff FB and Google does is sketchy as hell. For example with Facebook, they actually scan mobile phones and collect all the contact information. That means if you have friends who have Facebook, they're probably tracking you too. They also track all your searches and web browsing activity even on non facebook sites. Spying is huge now days, everybody is in on it including the government. It's gotten pretty bad. Google is just as bad too it's just there seems to be more info about Facebook. They do weird stuff to track you even on sites they don't control.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=facebook+shadow+profile&t=h_&ia=web
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=facebook+tracking+you&ia=web
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=google+tracking+you&ia=web

I guess this is a bit OT at this point, but original point was that even "non malware" stuff is often malware these days. Spyware, to be more specific.


I agree, the ToS's are getting out of control, long and using difficult to understand language on purpose should be illegal. If you are expecting laypeople to read and understand them they write them short and in laymans terms.

Now that i have pfsense up and running im actually logging alot of my network traffic for inspection, to try and determine what ports are being used by microsoft and google and others to call home with this data, so i can try and start blocking them.
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,890
5,001
126
Did YOU read the TOS? Some of those are longer than the entire LOTR triology books except it's dry legalese. They are purposely made long so nobody actually reads them. It does not make it right, from a moral standpoint. Some of the stuff FB and Google does is sketchy as hell. For example with Facebook, they actually scan mobile phones and collect all the contact information. That means if you have friends who have Facebook, they're probably tracking you too. They also track all your searches and web browsing activity even on non facebook sites. Spying is huge now days, everybody is in on it including the government. It's gotten pretty bad. Google is just as bad too it's just there seems to be more info about Facebook. They do weird stuff to track you even on sites they don't control.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=facebook+shadow+profile&t=h_&ia=web
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=facebook+tracking+you&ia=web
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=google+tracking+you&ia=web

I guess this is a bit OT at this point, but original point was that even "non malware" stuff is often malware these days. Spyware, to be more specific.

All of these services are FREE to use. 100% monetarily FREE. If you don't read the TOS, or don't want to bother to read the TOS, that is YOUR choice and you're agreeing to whatever is in them. Period. You don't have to sign up and use those services. Nobody is forcing you. You are not required. How would Facebook be "tracking me" if my friend has Facebook?
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,157
13,567
126
www.anyf.ca
All of these services are FREE to use. 100% monetarily FREE. If you don't read the TOS, or don't want to bother to read the TOS, that is YOUR choice and you're agreeing to whatever is in them. Period. You don't have to sign up and use those services. Nobody is forcing you. You are not required. How would Facebook be "tracking me" if my friend has Facebook?

Did you read any of the links in the search results I linked to? It explains all that. Here's a direct link to one of the articles: https://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/facebook-is-tracking-you-even-if-you-dont-have-an-account