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Is it just me, or is Windows going backwards?

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Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
The fact that MS has taken that path, seems to me to indication that it's too difficult (or too expensive, in terms of software-development ROI vs. what their products sell for), to implement the "right" fix, so instead MS band-aids stuff instead. At least, it seems that way.
Well, I'm sorry it seems that way. All new code, starting with XP and moving forward, has been written with these security principles in place.

One problem, however, is that there is a huge amount of legacy code in Windows, and some of it until now has incredibly managed to escape thorough security reviews. Server 2003 was really the first release where all unnecessary features/services were aggressively removed/disabled by default. In XP and XPSP1, these principles were known, but their implementation was not aggressive enough: decision makers refused to sacrifice backwards compatibility and "ease of use" for security. That has changed now; all features are challenged regarding whether they are permitted to be "on" by default. Backwards compatibility (and the inevitable "old code" that goes along with maintaining it) is seen as a disadvantage now, due to the security ramifications, rather than a positive feature requirement. Similar practices are shared by the OpenBSD team too, if you recall.

So with all of this legacy code, Microsoft knew that in the 20+ million lines of code somewhere there would be one or more more security problems missed by the security reviews. Perhaps the review hadn't been done yet, or perhaps it was done in a less-than-thorough fashion. Regardless, Windows would have some security flaws, no matter how much time and energy was spent trying to catch all bugs in the trenches.

So, why not do something about those vulnerabilities that slip through the cracks? No matter what you say about being "ugly" or a "band-aid", just about every security expert agrees that these mitigation steps help increase the security robustness of Windows to some degree. Isn't that better than the alternative?

The other advantage to mitigation steps is that they're "low-hanging fruit": they can be implemented once for the entire system, and still catch a large number of nasty vulnerabilities in all kinds of different systems. Whereas it might take years to pour over the code of every subsystem in Windows line-by-line with a fine-toothed security comb, it might take only a few months to develop some stopgap mitigation techniques that will buy some time for the thorough reviews/rewrites to take place.

SP2 included some of both. There were lots of security fixes at the code level; there were many configuration changes to turn things off by default; and mitigation factors like the firewall and DEP were installed to catch things that still had yet to be uncovered by the review/test process.

Things like the XP SP2 firewall and DEP/NX are effectively band-aids. I'm not saying that they are bad things, but MS should focus on fixing the core code too, just as much, if not more so, than implementing mitigating workarounds.
We are. I guess part of the problem is, this work is largely invisible to you. No matter how much work we put into it, you won't see it. The only objective metric by which you can attempt to gauge security fundamentals work is the number of vulnerabilities found in the latest releases of Windows (XP Sp2, Server 2003).

But in my experience, there is only a very loose correlation there. In fact, the number of vulnerabilities reported seems to be inversely proportional to the amount of work that goes into preventing them, at least in the past 2-3 years. This of course, is a historical trend which may not continue, but it is puzzling from my anecdotal viewpoint.

Luckily, the vulnerabilities do seem to be getting more and more obscure, which in my opinion means that hackers are running out of "low-hanging fruit" themselves and have now turned to more creative attacks.

I honestly don't know of a good way for us to announce the amount of work we do in this area. It is a fundamental, and it is time consuming, and it is absolutely seen as mission-critical work.

Ok, point noted, but I did say "maybe". 🙂 The only thing that I know about MS and Longhorn and offshoring, is the pair of news articles that I've read in the online press about it.

Primary development on Windows code-named Longhorn is done in-house in Redmond. I doubt very highly that management is trying to hide outsourcing from us by pulling some huge trick on us. (I suppose some of these teams that I never physically interact with could theoretically be a single full-time developer here in Redmond secretly checking in code provided to him by a team in India. But I think it would be highly improbable given the fine-grained tracking system by which the author of every snippet of code is maintained, and widespread or voluminous check-in mails coming from one person would start to look very suspicious.)

Now, for tool projects or test case development, I have seen some limited outsourcing. But from what I can gather, it is mostly seen as experimental to feel out the water. More outsourcing may be on the horizon, or it may not be. I don't know. All I can say with certainty is that the outsourcing going on right now is very minimal in general, and in primary feature development simply nonexistent.
 
No matter how much work we put into it, you won't see it. The only objective metric by which you can attempt to gauge security fundamentals work is the number of vulnerabilities found in the latest releases of Windows (XP Sp2, Server 2003).

You could always try doing something to make it more known, like putting your bug database out in the public so people can actually see the progress being made on each issue.

 
Originally posted by: kylef
Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
The fact that MS has taken that path, seems to me to indication that it's too difficult (or too expensive, in terms of software-development ROI vs. what their products sell for), to implement the "right" fix, so instead MS band-aids stuff instead. At least, it seems that way.
Well, I'm sorry it seems that way. All new code, starting with XP and moving forward, has been written with these security principles in place.
So MS isn't going to go back and fix the core code? But instead is going to chose to add complexity to the system instead? That's just... nuts. Poor engineering, at least. Complexity breeds bugs, that's nearly a fundimental axiom, as long as programming continues to be carried out by humans, and humans are limited in their ability to deal with complexity.

Originally posted by: kylef
One problem, however, is that there is a huge amount of legacy code in Windows, and some of it until now has incredibly managed to escape thorough security reviews.
I thought that MS pulled and delayed the release of XP SP2 for months, just so that they could go through and review all of the code for security issues? Or was that not true?

Originally posted by: kylef
So with all of this legacy code, Microsoft knew that in the 20+ million lines of code somewhere there would be one or more more security problems missed by the security reviews. Perhaps the review hadn't been done yet, or perhaps it was done in a less-than-thorough fashion. Regardless, Windows would have some security flaws, no matter how much time and energy was spent trying to catch all bugs in the trenches.
Now you're talking...

Originally posted by: kylef
So, why not do something about those vulnerabilities that slip through the cracks? No matter what you say about being "ugly" or a "band-aid", just about every security expert agrees that these mitigation steps help increase the security robustness of Windows to some degree. Isn't that better than the alternative?
I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, as I hinted at with the final portion of my "band-aid" analogy, hopefully this will give MS the "breathing room" to be able to fix things in the end. But just as importantly, MS shouldn't be allowed to simply implement mitigating fixes, in place of actual fixes, and get away with doing that in the market.

Originally posted by: kylef
The other advantage to mitigation steps is that they're "low-hanging fruit": they can be implemented once for the entire system, and still catch a large number of nasty vulnerabilities in all kinds of different systems. Whereas it might take years to pour over the code of every subsystem in Windows line-by-line with a fine-toothed security comb, it might take only a few months to develop some stopgap mitigation techniques that will buy some time for the thorough reviews/rewrites to take place.
Exactly. That's precisely what I'm worried about - that MS will do this now, and never getting around to implementing "real" fixes later - essentially taking the easy way out.

Originally posted by: kylef
SP2 included some of both. There were lots of security fixes at the code level; there were many configuration changes to turn things off by default; and mitigation factors like the firewall and DEP were installed to catch things that still had yet to be uncovered by the review/test process.
Guess they didn't catch that serious firewall bug, the one that has left XP SP2 users with dial-up/ISDN connections potentially exposing their 'shares' to the world-at-large for months now, unknowingly.

Even better, is that MS apparently intentionally hid the fix, labeled "Critical", and didn't list it among the publically-announced security fixes. If MS is so all-fired-up about "trustworthy computing", then why the heck are they intentionally hiding, "Critical" fixes for firewall bugs that have existed since the release of XP SP2? Could it be, that admitting the problem, would be too much egg on MS's corporate face? Especially when they publically downplayed the issue when it was initially reported in the press?

Originally posted by: kylef
We are. I guess part of the problem is, this work is largely invisible to you. No matter how much work we put into it, you won't see it.
LOL. In light of what I just said, the fact that you phrased it that way, is quite humorous. Thanks. 🙂

Originally posted by: kylef
The only objective metric by which you can attempt to gauge security fundamentals work is the number of vulnerabilities found in the latest releases of Windows (XP Sp2, Server 2003).
Of course, how many of those will end up recieving the "silent patch treatment", and go publically-unannounced on "patch day". Invisible fixes indeed.

Is that part of their new security strategy, distribute the most important patches, as secretly and stealthily as possible, so that the evil hax0rs won't take the publically-announced and distributed patches and reverse-engineer them into exploits, before the patches hit the auto-update servers? With the consequence that MS's own customers are kept uninformed and out of the loop about critical security issues that may be affecting them?

Originally posted by: kylef
Primary development on Windows code-named Longhorn is done in-house in Redmond. I doubt very highly that management is trying to hide outsourcing from us by pulling some huge trick on us. (I suppose some of these teams that I never physically interact with could theoretically be a single full-time developer here in Redmond secretly checking in code provided to him by a team in India. But I think it would be highly improbable given the fine-grained tracking system by which the author of every snippet of code is maintained, and widespread or voluminous check-in mails coming from one person would start to look very suspicious.)
Wait, so you are in fact suggestion that the online news reports that portions of Longhorn are being outsourced, are flat-out incorrect? Interesting. I honestly don't know, and I am willing to admit that the online press loves to speculate on Longhorn rumors, but IIRC this was not presented as a rumor.
 
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