Is it just me or does it seem like the Middle Class is Dying?

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I'm not envious of those who are Super Rich who earned it. On the other hand, if and when some stalker takes out Paris Hilton I won't shed a tear.

Meh...her parents worked hard so that she wouldn't have to worry about it.

I wouldn't mind growing up with her money, but I certainly am not mad at her for being born into it.

I'm far more pissed at the losers (read: stupid Americans) who just keep making her richer. Americans love to bitch and moan about how unfair it is that the rich get richer, and then they proceed to devote all their money and time to worshipping their favorite actor/singer/athlete/heiress.

Everyone needs to stop their fscking whining and come to grips with the fact that a lot of the "super rich" are "super rich" because the middle class gobbles up whatever they're selling.

 

[Minjin]

Its times like this that I like to quote Milli Vanilli:

Blame it on the rain that was falling, falling
Blame it on the stars that did shine at night
Whatever you do don't put the blame on you
Blame it on the rain yeah yeah

 

[ranmaniac]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Darkstar757
I know this is a rant. But as of late I swear I see the divide between the rich and the poor is huge. I am so sick of seeing reports of CEO's getting a Christmas bonus of 53million. I work hard all year round and the goverenment is taxing the fscking crap out of me. The rich just setup companies and play the crooked good ole boy game. I just feel like the American concept of the Middle Class is dying at a crazy pace.


Im soooo pissed.

:|

Why are you pissed?

If you never read the news you'd never know about those people, would you?

And again, why are you pissed? Seriously ask yourself that. Don't just become defensive. Honestly ask yourself why you are so worried about others that what you READ about them doing results in such a strong emotional response from you.

And no, the Middle class is far from dying.

You clearly have your head in the sand if you think the gap between rich and poor hasn't widened. Denial is usually the first excuse a person makes when confronted with reality.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Gulzakar
I swear, most of you on this board play the devils advocate...In fact, most of you are douche bags.

He's angry about the salary of CEO's and the shrinking middle class. Most of you tell him "stop whining, blah blah blah"...most likely because nobody cares what you say in real life. Honestly, give him a break, he's angry because he works hard and gets paid squat.

Let's say he does have a roof over his head and food in his belly, is it not ok for him to want more? I swear, most of you are pricks.

Bottom line,

Why does somebody deserve a 50 million dollar bonus? If what most of you are saying is true, then the receiver of this should be happy with a tiny fraction of it because he has a roof over his head.

If you work 120 hours a week and run a company that made $9 billion PROFIT, then yes, you deserve a $50 million bonus.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: ranmaniac

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Darkstar757
I know this is a rant. But as of late I swear I see the divide between the rich and the poor is huge. I am so sick of seeing reports of CEO's getting a Christmas bonus of 53million. I work hard all year round and the goverenment is taxing the fscking crap out of me. The rich just setup companies and play the crooked good ole boy game. I just feel like the American concept of the Middle Class is dying at a crazy pace.


Im soooo pissed.

:|

Why are you pissed?

If you never read the news you'd never know about those people, would you?

And again, why are you pissed? Seriously ask yourself that. Don't just become defensive. Honestly ask yourself why you are so worried about others that what you READ about them doing results in such a strong emotional response from you.

And no, the Middle class is far from dying.

You clearly have your head in the sand if you think the gap between rich and poor hasn't widened. Denial is usually the first excuse a person makes when confronted with reality.

who cares if the "rich" get more rich? as long as the rest of us have a better standard of living, why should you care? What's the difference if you made $100k one year, then $105k the next, and that billionaire went from $1 billion to $3 billion? WTF is the difference? WHO CARES if there is a huge gap? Standard of living is 100x better than 10-20-30-40-150 years ago for all of us. The "poor" today live like kings compared to people 100 years ago in the US. Heck compare to 3rd world countries.

This is why people in 3rd world countries are dying and Socialist Europeans are suffering. Soviet Russia FELL. The great COMMUNIST PET PROJECT FAILED. GET OVER IT.

 

[lokiju]

Your post sounds like those people that hate Bill Gates but really have no reason other than he's crazy rich.

WTF would you hate someone just because they're rich?

It's clear you're just very very jealous, when in turn makes you mad.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Someone is going to have to pay for all the debts we are racking up. And let's face it, it's going to be the rich. It's not like the middle class or the poor can afford to pay more. Right now we are getting a reprieve because the Chinese, Japanese, etc are offering to pay for everything by lending us money. But when that ends and we have to pay our own way, it doesn't take a political genius to figure out where the burden will fall.

I was thinking about this the other day and came to the same conclusion.

What might be interesting is if a larger estate tax were put into place/reinstated, since it was the older generation that ran up national debt, paying it down should also come from that generation.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: ranmaniac

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Darkstar757
I know this is a rant. But as of late I swear I see the divide between the rich and the poor is huge. I am so sick of seeing reports of CEO's getting a Christmas bonus of 53million. I work hard all year round and the goverenment is taxing the fscking crap out of me. The rich just setup companies and play the crooked good ole boy game. I just feel like the American concept of the Middle Class is dying at a crazy pace.


Im soooo pissed.

:|

Why are you pissed?

If you never read the news you'd never know about those people, would you?

And again, why are you pissed? Seriously ask yourself that. Don't just become defensive. Honestly ask yourself why you are so worried about others that what you READ about them doing results in such a strong emotional response from you.

And no, the Middle class is far from dying.

You clearly have your head in the sand if you think the gap between rich and poor hasn't widened. Denial is usually the first excuse a person makes when confronted with reality.

The only person with a reality problem is you. I never said anything about any income "gaps." Only that the middle class is far from dying.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Yes, the middle class is far from dying because it's DEAD! When I was a kid we were middle class as defined by the average post WWII family being able to buy a house for about one years salary. Now, the super cheap, 2 x 4 constructed, drive by type of house can occasionally be found for $90, 000.

How many Americans have a combined annual salary of at least $90,000? Damn few. In the state where I reside (Arizona) fewer than 5 % are what I would consider middle class by the above definition. That leaves the working poor and the 'should I wait another year to trade in the Lexus?' crowd to make up the rest of the population.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
Yes, the middle class is far from dying because it's DEAD! When I was a kid we were middle class as defined by the average post WWII family being able to buy a house for about one years salary. Now, the super cheap, 2 x 4 constructed, drive by type of house can occasionally be found for $90, 000.

How many Americans have a combined annual salary of at least $90,000? Damn few. In the state where I reside (Arizona) fewer than 5 % are what I would consider middle class by the above definition. That leaves the working poor and the 'should I wait another year to trade in the Lexus?' crowd to make up the rest of the population.

Your post is filled with inaccuracies.

At no time has the middle class been able to buy a decent home for one years salary.

The post war 1950s era was the creation of the cookie cutter cheaply built tract home.

Since then homes have become on average larger, and more stylish. Want to go back to homes with one bathroom and no master bedroom? Because that's the type of home the post war era saw.

I suspect a great many of the people you call "working poor" are in reality, lower middle class people with debt problems. And a great many of what you think are rich are actually middle class to upper middle class people.

How many Americans have a COMBINED salary of 90+? A good many. That's 45 a year each. In fact, that falls in the largest salary range in the country. In fact, it's damn close the the 2004 average US income of $44,389.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

The '50's era was indeed the "cookie cutter cheaply built tract home.," which is why I comapared it to "the super cheap, 2 x 4 constructed, drive by type of house"

The tract homes were subsidized by Uncle Sam and our house was purchased in 1960 for $10,000 which was my Dad's salary at the time. Also, in those years, only the head (read man) of the household worked outside the home typically so there really was no combined income.

I was trying to eliminate the quibling over what constitutes 'middle class' by making comparisons to living situations that hopefully many can identify with. I define 'working poor' as someone who does not own 'real' property and is within 2 paychecks of being on the street. Again, in my state, the 'working poor' are in the vast majority.

In general, quality of life has dropped significantly across the country within ONE generation. I believe the 'middle' class has gone the way of single wage earner families, i.e. none to speak of.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
The '50's era was indeed the "cookie cutter cheaply built tract home.," which is why I comapared it to "the super cheap, 2 x 4 constructed, drive by type of house"

The tract homes were subsidized by Uncle Sam and our house was purchased in 1960 for $10,000 which was my Dad's salary at the time. Also, in those years, only the head (read man) of the household worked outside the home typically so there really was no combined income.

I was trying to eliminate the quibling over what constitutes 'middle class' by making comparisons to living situations that hopefully many can identify with. I define 'working poor' as someone who does not own 'real' property and is within 2 paychecks of being on the street. Again, in my state, the 'working poor' are in the vast majority.

In general, quality of life has dropped significantly across the country within ONE generation. I believe the 'middle' class has gone the way of single wage earner families, i.e. none to speak of.

I disagree. Quality of life has greatly improved.

BTW, your father's salary was $64,000 in today's dollars. He made TWICE the average income in 1960, which was around $5000

Oh, and my parents paid $32,000 for a 2400 SF suburban house in 1962.

BTW, I will agree that 2 income families have caused housing prices to shoot up. But that's only because they were willing to pay more. The market will charge only what the market will bear. 2 incomes means the market will bear more.

So, in a way, you can blame women's lib for some of that.

But MANY things are far cheaper now as a % of income. Food is FAR cheaper (DRASTICALLY CHEAPER), appliances are cheaper, and so are cars. Not to mention all the gadgets the average person has now that they never had then.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Wait a second, you think that 2 income families have driven up housing prices? You have the cart before the horse my friend. Unions, taxes, archaic building codes and materials have driven up housing costs.

Food is definitely cheaper.
Appliances are slightly cheaper to purchase but, most appliances lasted at least twice as long.
Cars are about the same but smaller now. The $2000 station-wagon in 1960 would cost about $12,500 now but try finding a wagon or minivan for that price.

We do indeed have a lot more gadgets and shinies now (my precious) but, we also have a lot more crime, drug problems, educational problems, foreign problems etc. etc.

I believe America has prospered since the 60's but, I also believe that a disproportionately large group of citizens have not shared in that prosperity.

 

[LeadMagnet]

looking at home many homes were sold for $250k to $600k in Mass I would have to say that the middle class is not dead, most new homes seemed to be fore over $700k in eastern MA, but most of those folks were upgrading from their $400k house that they almost owned.

 

[vi edit]

The middle class killed itself. It wasn't happy with a small home so it bought bigger ones. It wasn't happy with a used car so it bought a new one. It wasn't happy with one car so it bought two of them. It wasn't happy with our pre-ground $2 a pound Tasters Choice coffee so it went out and decided to pay $4.00 a cup for a hot and frothy cappuchino. It wasn't happy with having the 25" $200 plain old TV so it went out and bought a $2000 flat screen HDTV. Wranglers for $10 aren't good enough so we go with the $50 designer brand.

We went from cold wars to class wars to keep up with the jones.

 

[aidanjm]

people think the defining element of Dumbya's presidency is the Iraq war, but actually it was the sneaky tax cuts for the rich and other financial policies that have resulted in a massive shift in the balance of wealth away from the middle class and towards the "mega" wealthy. Compare the Clinton presidency with Bush's Presidency. Under Clinton, the middle class became more wealthy every year. Under Bush, the middle class has become less wealthy with each passing year. Government policy does make a huge difference re: where the money flows to.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: lokiju
Your post sounds like those people that hate Bill Gates but really have no reason other than he's crazy rich.

WTF would you hate someone just because they're rich?

It's clear you're just very very jealous, when in turn makes you mad.

actually, it is human nature to want equitable distribution of resources within your own society. kids understand this instinctively, which is why they get pissed off when their parents favor one child over the other.

 

[bennylong]

Working females killed the MIDDLE CLASS. The cost of housing was driven up because of all the women that entered the work force.


Now a family need two working parents just to pay the bills. Thank you, fem nazi!

"In fact, Jane is catching a real estate trend that has been swelling for years. Single women are buying homes at record rates -- and everyone seems to be taking notice. In 2000-2003, single women spent $550 billion in real estate nationally. The National Association of Realtors identified this rich vein of buyers when they discovered that in 2002 twice as many single women bought their first homes as single men. Builders and developers have also begun marketing to these women because they now comprise some 30 percent of all condo purchasers.

With neither the homemaking pressures of married couple culture nor the hefty incomes of single men (according to federal labor statistics, women still earn only 80 cents on the dollar), why would so many single women mortgage their future for a pile of wood and plaster? Many articles -- including a New York Times story about women buying up condos in Brooklyn -- have painted a picture of the female home buyer as the new darling of real estate. These articles cite such reasons as the importance of "nesting" for women, their tendency to be "planners" for the future and their new buying power. In short, they tout the trend as a sign of women's newfound fiscal independence finding expression in their homemaking urges.

But "Buying for Themselves," a new study from the Joint Center for Housing Studies at Harvard University, suggests that the trend in single women buying homes is more a matter of simple demographics than essentialist stereotypes. The study, which looked at 18 million home buyers between 2000 and 2003, found that single women accounted for 20 percent of home buyers as opposed to single men at 17 percent. Such factors as high divorce rates (with women exiting marriages with hefty chunks of equity), women waiting longer to get married and women's rising salaries all contribute to more single women deciding to buy a home on their own. As for the nesting instinct, since 30 percent of these single female home buyers live with their children, it may be more a practical matter of creating a stable home life than a genetic predisposition toward throw pillows. "

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: lokiju
Your post sounds like those people that hate Bill Gates but really have no reason other than he's crazy rich.

WTF would you hate someone just because they're rich?

It's clear you're just very very jealous, when in turn makes you mad.

actually, it is human nature to want equitable distribution of resources within your own society. kids understand this instrinctively, which is why they get pissed off when their parents favor one child over the other.

Hogwash. That's communism. It already failed. No sane person in this country wants equal distribution of wealth, if they do they need to go somewhere else. This is the land of the American Dream, not the land of "gimme".

In our society we reward people that better society in their actions. If one is poor it is by their own fault and nothing more. No where else in the world can you come with nothing and build your fortune through hard work.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Originally posted by: vi_edit
The middle class killed itself. It wasn't happy with a small home so it bought bigger ones. It wasn't happy with a used car so it bought a new one. It wasn't happy with one car so it bought two of them. It wasn't happy with our pre-ground $2 a pound Tasters Choice coffee so it went out and decided to pay $4.00 a cup for a hot and frothy cappuchino. It wasn't happy with having the 25" $200 plain old TV so it went out and bought a $2000 flat screen HDTV. Wranglers for $10 aren't good enough so we go with the $50 designer brand.

We went from cold wars to class wars to keep up with the jones.

I think you are right to a certain extent but, I don't put all the blame for rampant consumerism on the middle class. Look at the companies who sold us those cars, cappuchinos, HDTVs and, designer jeans, none of them spent a nickel on anything that didn't show an immediate growing return on investment.

Some argue that a company's only responsibility is to it's shareholders but, I would argue that a company has a duty to it's community, employees and customers to enrich their lives as well as earn a profit for themselves by following business practices of enlightened self interest for long term profitability and quality of life.

Wow, I just re-read what I wrote and you'd think I was running for office.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

I think you are right to a certain extent but, I don't put all the blame for rampant consumerism on the middle class. Look at the companies who sold us those cars, cappuchinos, HDTVs and, designer jeans, none of them spent a nickel on anything that didn't show an immediate growing return on investment.

Some argue that a company's only responsibility is to it's shareholders but, I would argue that a company has a duty to it's community, employees and customers to enrich their lives as well as earn a profit for themselves by following business practices of enlightened self interest for long term profitability and quality of life.

Wow, I just re-read what I wrote and you'd think I was running for office.

And you would probably win in Russia. But not in this great land of ours.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

I think you are right to a certain extent but, I don't put all the blame for rampant consumerism on the middle class. Look at the companies who sold us those cars, cappuchinos, HDTVs and, designer jeans, none of them spent a nickel on anything that didn't show an immediate growing return on investment.

Some argue that a company's only responsibility is to it's shareholders but, I would argue that a company has a duty to it's community, employees and customers to enrich their lives as well as earn a profit for themselves by following business practices of enlightened self interest for long term profitability and quality of life.

Wow, I just re-read what I wrote and you'd think I was running for office.

And you would probably win in Russia. But not in this great land of ours.

I'm communist because I believe in a company's responsibility beyond profits?

 

[PaperclipGod]

Originally posted by: vi_edit
The middle class killed itself. It wasn't happy with a small home so it bought bigger ones. It wasn't happy with a used car so it bought a new one. It wasn't happy with one car so it bought two of them. It wasn't happy with our pre-ground $2 a pound Tasters Choice coffee so it went out and decided to pay $4.00 a cup for a hot and frothy cappuchino. It wasn't happy with having the 25" $200 plain old TV so it went out and bought a $2000 flat screen HDTV. Wranglers for $10 aren't good enough so we go with the $50 designer brand.

We went from cold wars to class wars to keep up with the jones.

I love you

 

[FlashG]

Originally posted by: PaperclipGod

Originally posted by: vi_edit
The middle class killed itself. It wasn't happy with a small home so it bought bigger ones. It wasn't happy with a used car so it bought a new one. It wasn't happy with one car so it bought two of them. It wasn't happy with our pre-ground $2 a pound Tasters Choice coffee so it went out and decided to pay $4.00 a cup for a hot and frothy cappuchino. It wasn't happy with having the 25" $200 plain old TV so it went out and bought a $2000 flat screen HDTV. Wranglers for $10 aren't good enough so we go with the $50 designer brand.

We went from cold wars to class wars to keep up with the jones.

I love you

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
I'm communist because I believe in a company's responsibility beyond profits?

Yes. By definition.

-edit-
I know a lot of you guys don't or won't accept this. But it's a dog eat dog world. Either be top dog or be eaten. The cream rises to the top.