Is infrastructure the next crisis for the USA ?

[Modelworks]

I watched the program "The crumbling of America" on the history channel. To sum it up it is a documentary on the infrastructure of the USA. It covers, roads,bridges,drinking water, sewage, electricity. I knew our infrastructure was in bad shape, but didn't realize how bad. Spending on keeping it all working in the 1950's was near 9% we now spend 2% or less. We patch and hope it keeps working. All this stuff was designed with 50 year lifespans in mind. It has now been over that for most of the USA and we don't have the money to build new.

But like someone in the program said, senators don't want to put money on something like repairing a sewer line, because nobody sees it.

If all this stuff starts to fail , and it will without repairs, we are really going to be screwed.

You can view the infrastructure report for 2009 here:
http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/report-cards

Some examples.
CA has a 80+ mile tunnel constructed in the 1950's to bring water to the southern parts of the state. The tunnel leaks water so bad that towns located above the tunnel are being destroyed because the water is seeping into the ground above the tunnel . Everything above ground is sinking down into the mud.

Many states are dumping untreated raw sewage into the ocean and rivers because the systems they have to treat waste either don't work or are overwhelmed.

Bridges are rated on a scale of 1 to 100, 100 being best for safety. One bridge they showed rated a 1. The state did some work on it and brought it up to a 2. Engineers said it probably wouldn't fail tomorrow, but who knows about the day after that.

Levees in CA built in the 1920's that require the local farmers to inspect them every day because they are failing due to poor construction. If the levees fail it will cause the farmland to flood. When that happens the ocean will send sea water up the rivers into the same reservoirs that cities like LA use for drinking water, making it undrinkable for 2-3 years. What would LA do with no water for that long ?

Dams that could fail at any time, and worse the way they are inspected. Texas has 2 inspectors for the entire state , with 7000+ dams that need inspecting. Other states like AL have no inspectors and rely on individual owners to do the inspection.

Electric grid that still has tech from the 1950's . They showed how many states do not even know when power goes out to an area until the customers call them to let them know.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Clearly, cap and trade and universal health care are more important than the basics that run our entire country. We need an Infrastructure Czar, perhaps an Infrastructure Bailout.

In all seriousness, our infrastructure problems are a true crisis, unlike the ones being created and focused on at the moment. When areas start losing power, drinking water, transportation, etc., that is actually a crisis.

 

[Cuda1447]

So many important things to spend money on and we waste it on all kinds of bullshit.

 

[CPA]

I thought infrastructure was fixed thanks to Obama's stimulus bill.

 

[dphantom]

Repair/maintenance is not glamorous. So most money is appropriate for new projects. That has to change.

As for dumping sewage, except for stormwater overflow that overwhelms sewage systems, I know of no community that deliberately dumps raw untreated sewage into any body of water in Michigan. And all communities are mandated to separate storm from other sewage systems to alleviate that problem.

 

[EagleKeeper]

This is what the stimulus funds should have been used for.

 

[Genx87]

Who needs infrastructure? We need to build the social industrial complex. A road, a bridge, a dam. Those dont buy votes for the long term! Once built, people forget about them. A handout is forever!

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: dphantom
Repair/maintenance is not glamorous. So most money is appropriate for new projects. That has to change.

As for dumping sewage, except for stormwater overflow that overwhelms sewage systems, I know of no community that deliberately dumps raw untreated sewage into any body of water in Michigan. And all communities are mandated to separate storm from other sewage systems to alleviate that problem.

They discussed this on the program.
The problem is the EPA mandates it, but the fed doesn't fund fixing it anymore so it is left to cities to pay for it. If the city doesn't have the funds then it stays as it is.

Sanitary sewer overflows, caused by blocked or broken pipes, result in the release of as much as 10
billion gallons of raw sewage yearly, according to the EPA.

 

[Moonbeam]

Fixing infrastructure is like cleaning up nuclear waste. Everybody knows it has to be done but nobody will do it. It's not glamorous and it costs money. Who wouldn't want to build a new bullet train rather than fix a pot hole. Everybody wants to go on vacation but nobody likes to clean their garage.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: CPA
I thought infrastructure was fixed thanks to Obama's stimulus bill.

The report from the civil engineers is that it will take $2.2 trillion to fix the infrastructure if we do it now. If we wait anther 5 years that increases to $2.7 trillion and continues to increase.

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Fixing infrastructure is like cleaning up nuclear waste. Everybody knows it has to be done but nobody will do it. It's not glamorous and it costs money. Who wouldn't want to build a new bullet train rather than fix a pot hole. Everybody wants to go on vacation but nobody likes to clean their garage.

QFT

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Clearly, cap and trade and universal health care are more important than the basics that run our entire country. We need an Infrastructure Czar, perhaps an Infrastructure Bailout.

In all seriousness, our infrastructure problems are a true crisis, unlike the ones being created and focused on at the moment. When areas start losing power, drinking water, transportation, etc., that is actually a crisis.

Health care and the environment are not luxuries. They are components of a country's infrastructure.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: CPA
I thought infrastructure was fixed thanks to Obama's stimulus bill.

The report from the civil engineers is that it will take $2.2 trillion to fix the infrastructure if we do it now. If we wait anther 5 years that increases to $2.7 trillion and continues to increase.

What is $2 trillion, anyway? Obama is spending trillions like it's the new million.

The funny thing is, with all of this "green technology" that is being rammed down our throats, it will all still be placed on top of our ancient and inefficient infrastructure.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Siddhartha


Health care and the environment are not luxuries. They are components of a country's infrastructure.

The problem is health care does you no good if you can't get to the doctor.

Usually built to last 50 years, the average bridge in our country is now 43 years old. According to the U.S. Department of Transportation, of the 600,905 bridges across the country as of December 2008, 72,868 (12.1%) were categorized as structurally deficient and 89,024 (14.8%) were categorized as functionally obsolete.

 

[MotF Bane]

Maintenance doesn't win votes, big new projects do.

 

[Painman]

Let the market respond. if Citibank's bridge over the Mississippi collapses and kils 1,000 people, then it's a good day for Bank of America who owns a bridge 50 miles downstream. They even get to raise their tolls, along with their stock price. Sucks to be Citi, eh?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: CPA
I thought infrastructure was fixed thanks to Obama's stimulus bill.

The report from the civil engineers is that it will take $2.2 trillion to fix the infrastructure if we do it now. If we wait anther 5 years that increases to $2.7 trillion and continues to increase.

What is $2 trillion, anyway? Obama is spending trillions like it's the new million.

The funny thing is, with all of this "green technology" that is being rammed down our throats, it will all still be placed on top of our ancient and inefficient infrastructure.

So what you are saying is we will place a shiny new turd on the shitpile and watch it crumble?

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: CPA
I thought infrastructure was fixed thanks to Obama's stimulus bill.

The report from the civil engineers is that it will take $2.2 trillion to fix the infrastructure if we do it now. If we wait anther 5 years that increases to $2.7 trillion and continues to increase.

What is $2 trillion, anyway? Obama is spending trillions like it's the new million.

The funny thing is, with all of this "green technology" that is being rammed down our throats, it will all still be placed on top of our ancient and inefficient infrastructure.

So what you are saying is we will place a shiny new turd on the s**tpile and watch it crumble?

Pretty much. All of these solar/wind/whatever-hackneyed "green projects" will be pumping their "clean and green" energy into the same old, inefficient and crumbling infrastructure.

 

[bobsmith1492]

Well, here's what I've seen in West Michigan:

1. A rainstorm two weeks ago washed out numerous roads and drain systems
2. The same rainstorm washed millions of gallons of sewage down rivers into Lake Michigan; this happens once or twice a year.
3. Many country roads are reverting to dirt roads
4. I heard an estimate of ~$350/year per person spent repairing vehicles damaged by the roads - potholes cover even brand new roads within a couple of years.

 

[Painman]

Originally posted by: bobsmith1492
Well, here's what I've seen in West Michigan:

1. A rainstorm two weeks ago washed out numerous roads and drain systems
2. The same rainstorm washed millions of gallons of sewage down rivers into Lake Michigan; this happens once or twice a year.
3. Many country roads are reverting to dirt roads
4. I heard an estimate of ~$350/year per person spent repairing vehicles damaged by the roads - potholes cover even brand new roads within a couple of years.

...But, I bet if anyone proposed a $350 tax increase per household per annum within your locality for a road/sewer maintenance fund, they'd be publically crucified...

Western MI is sandy, I know... excessive water isn't its friend. But, Americans want everthing, yet refuse to pay for any of it. They pay anyway, in the long run.

 

[spacejamz]

I hope the people who died in the MIN bridge collapse a few years back didnt die in vain but since that is old news now, they are pretty much all but forgetten until the next bridge collapses...

 

[misle]

Originally posted by: spacejamz
I hope the people who died in the MIN bridge collapse a few years back didnt die in vain but since that is old news now, they are pretty much all but forgetten until the next bridge collapses...

The NTSB has cited a design flaw as the likely cause of the collapse, and asserted that additional weight on the bridge at the time of the collapse contributed to the failure.

It was a design flaw, not lack of maintenance, that caused the collapse.

Edit: It should be mentioned that it was in bad shape and needed to be replaced according to inspection reports.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: misle

Originally posted by: spacejamz
I hope the people who died in the MIN bridge collapse a few years back didnt die in vain but since that is old news now, they are pretty much all but forgetten until the next bridge collapses...

The NTSB has cited a design flaw as the likely cause of the collapse, and asserted that additional weight on the bridge at the time of the collapse contributed to the failure.

It was a design flaw, not lack of maintenance, that caused the collapse.

Edit: It should be mentioned that it was in bad shape and needed to be replaced according to inspection reports.

It was both.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material)

If maintained the problem would have been found and fixed.

 

[miketheidiot]

i thought it was already a crisis?

also, tax cuts are more politically and ideologically popular than infrastructure. You want a country that works, you are going to have to pay for it.

 

[her209]

Sounds like its should be paid for and maintained at the state government level, not federal.

EDIT: Except for the electrical grid.