Is Homosexuality is "abhorrent, immoral, detestable, and a crime against nature"?

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BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
I mean this in all seriousness . . . how many of you that "quote" or try to "live your life" by the Bible have actually read it to any significant degree?

And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Genesis 18:20-21

So God is pissed . . . why?

"the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly" Genesis 13:13

So what exactly did they do?

Well as two visitors (angels in disguise) dine with Lot, the men of Sodom circle the house.

"Where are the men which came in to thee this night?" "bring them out to us , that we may know them."
And of course that's know them if you know what I mean.

According to the texts I'm referencing (Brush Up Your Bible; Michael Macrone) and a KJV Lot knows this so instead of sending out his guests for a frat house haze he provides his two virgin daughters. The pillow-biting mob gets mad and tries to break down his door. At which point the angels fvck 'em up. Although Abraham had previously annoyed the shyte out of God in Ch18 asking how many righteous people would justify sparing S&G; the LORD has had enough so fire/brimstone.

Well, dumb@ss wife had to look so she's turned to salt. So it's just Lot and his two virgin daughters in the mountains in a cave. Since all the eligible bachelors were BBQ they conspire to get their father drunk enough that he would have sex with his children; albeit according to the text . . . he perceived not when she lay down nor when arose Genesis 19:33,35 . . . yeah that sounds like a guy but what the hell happened in between?

Anyway the offspring became Moab and Benammi.

In summary, men-lying with men is wrong BUT God is a merciful god and did not want to punish the righteous with the wicked. But apparently the entire male population was planning a train on Lot's guests because God leveled the towns to the plains; I assume all the women and children were visiting grandma. Offering your virgin daughters to a lecherous mob is righteous? But then the righteous man, Lot, has nonconsensual sex with his virgin daughters. Well technically they violated him but would you believe that story? Consecutive nights with virgins but drunk enough not to remember.

My point . . . I think . . . is best summed by another biblical verse. But unlike some other posters I will not say "it's in the Bible just go look" Matthew 7:3-5 just go look.

I don't know the Quran, but morals based on bibilical fiat are fungible. In theory, the Covenant gave absolutes but clearly killing isn't absolutely prohibited . . . it's just a bad idea. Just like the Bible we find 'justifications' for killing every day. And we damn certainly covet our neighbor's ass, PIV@2.6, and Skyline GT. I don't question anyone's faith but we must be a nation of laws that transcend a particular set of religious beliefs b/c if not our laws will be applied arbitrarily such as in theocracies like Iran or ex-Taliban Afghanistan.

If you want a neuropsychiatric/sociobiological explanation of why homosexuality is a norm on the continum of sexual behaviors you can PM me. And I use real textbooks and 1st-tier peer-reviewed research articles that I've actually read. On a visceral level homosexuality is illogical. Fortunately, good science often illuminates when logic/reason/common sense fail us.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
BalibabyDoc - a couple points... First, if you're quoting from a book that quotes the Bible, you clearly have to know it better than I, atleast in this context. But as any Christian will tell you, we focus more on the New Testament - one that quotes the word of Jesus Christ.

Secondly, we, or atleast the intelligent and truthful among us, will know that when we "covet", we're not really justifying anything... We may think so at some point, just to get to our objective without too much mental agony, but inevitably we know right from wrong, or atleast virtuous from not virtuous... But as we all know, knowing and doing are two vastly different and separate things... In the end I will always say... Christians are commissioned by the word of God, and due to the necessity but extreme complications brought on by free will, God dones't control us and is not in control of our futures... We alone are in control of it, and if we chose to fail God, which all of us invariably have - we're liably to suffer the consequences... <--- Don't mean to offend non-Christians here... its just my humble perspective...

LAst - we should all know the context you bring up - that homosexuality and incest have historically always been present... Today, it seems that as far as stereotypes go, homosexuality is rapant among the urban, trend following, alternative style, rebellious youngsters, and incest is closer associated with the backwoods hill-billy redneck... I find both equally repulsive, and cannot understand for the life of me why one is considered "PC" and only the latter is considered taboo...

I guess neither will ever go away...
 

Josephus

Senior member
Feb 11, 2002
205
0
0


<< I mean this in all seriousness . . . how many of you that "quote" or try to "live your life" by the Bible have actually read it to any significant degree? >>



Me for one, nice quote from Matthew, btw. The thing that trpubles me is when the Bible is used as a hammer instead of a light. We
are not God. Using that text as a basis to justify intolerance of anyone goes against my understanding of it's instruction on how
we are to relate to each other as well as to God...
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
The best overall summary of most respected researchers is that homosexuality (like most other psychological conditions) is due to a combination of social, biological, and psychological factors.

TRUE kinda, but the homo-haters are misapplying this statement. Genotypic sex is fixed at birth. Phenotypic sex typically follows genotypic sex but not always (developmental processes, hormones, and surgery can modify). Then we get to gender which typically follows the previous sex modes. If they are all congruent you get a typical dimorph male or female. Mismatch may lead to medical, psychological, and sexual dysfunction but these people may be homosexual or heterosexual. Gender is by definition a subjective perception of one's sex; it is a societal construct which a person may accept or reject. If you reject the construct that does not mean you have chosen homosexuality per se. But clearly some people choose to act on homosexual impulses while others do not.

Neuroscience, Purves et al. Ch28 Sex, Sexuality, and the Brain. 1997.

NARTH uses the above phraseology to imply people are making a choice so it's not primarily biology. The truth is that peer-reviewed science has not expressed that view. It is the complexity of interaction that prohibits favoring a particular model for relative contribution of factors. A more accurate statement would continue with the statement that the American Psychiatric Association has not considered homosexuality a disorder since 1973. Like heterosexuality, homosexuality results from complex biologic and environmental factors leading to an almost inevitable preference in the selection of a sexual partner. For most, it is not a matter of choice.

The Merck Manaul, 17ed. Ch192 Psychosocial Disorders. 1999.

As for the criticism of one of the twin studies, the commentator was showing his/her ignorance. Monozygotic twins (identical) show a 2-fold higher likelihood of concordance (both being gay) than dizygotic twins (fraternal). In essence, if you double the gene dose you dramatically increase the odds of homosexuality.

Birth weight, sexual orientation and the sex of preceding siblings.
J Biosoc Sci 2001 Jul;33(3):451-67 (ISSN: 0021-9320)
According to this hypothesis, when the maternal immune response is mild, it produces only a slightly reduced birth weight, but when it is stronger, it produces a markedly reduced birth weight as well as an increased probability of homosexuality.

Comparison of auditory evoked potentials in heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual males and females.
J Assoc Res Otolaryngol 2000 Aug;1(1):89-99
Hypermasculinization has been reported recently for other physical characteristics of homosexual males. One parsimonious interpretation of these findings is that homosexual males and females both were exposed to higher than normal levels of androgens at some point(s) in development.

Retrospective self-reports of changes in homosexual orientation: a consumer survey of conversion therapy clients.
Psychol Rep 2000 Jun;86(3 Pt 2):1071-88
As a group, the participants reported large and statistically significant reductions in the frequency of their homosexual thoughts and fantasies that they attributed to conversion therapy or self-help. They also reported large improvements in their psychological, interpersonal, and spiritual well-being. These responses cannot, for several reasons, be generalized beyond the present sample, but the attitudes and ideas are useful in developing testable hypotheses for further research.

Identity development of homosexual youth and parental and familial influences on the coming out process.
Adolescence 1999 Fall;34(135):597-601
This paper examines the literature on identity development of homosexual youth, and parental and familial influences on the coming out process. Research indicates that homosexual adolescents who have a close relationship with their parents and families tend to come out at a younger age and to experience more positive identities than do those who have a poor relationship.

Gender in homosexual boys: some developmental and clinical considerations.
Psychiatry 1999 Summer;62(2):187-94
Each of the homosexual men I have worked with has described gender-discordant traits during childhood that made him feel "different." In this article I illustrate that early parental admonitions and interventions to curb or replace these traits with more typically male behaviors may be harmful to the child's development, particularly to his emotional resilience. As a result, some gay adults have lost their capacity to recognize and express a variety of affects, and some attempt to avoid intimate relationships that evoke these and other repudiated "feminine" traits.

Heterosexually married homosexual men: clinical and developmental issues.
Am J Orthopsychiatry 1998 Jul;68(3):424-32
Based on clinical experience with 16 homosexual men married to women, this paper suggests that the motivation of such men for entering into marriage is associated with early self-esteem injury that has made social compliance important and acceptance of sexual orientation impossible. The typical course of these marriages is described, case histories of three married men who entered treatment in their forties are presented, and principles for therapeutic intervention are outlined.
 

luv2chill

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2000
4,611
0
76
BaliBabyDoc - Touch&eacute;! Thank you for posting all of that.

I'll say it again... Christians should be the LAST ones pointing a finger.
rolleye.gif
The best example of a Christian I can think of is the Rev. Billy Graham. You know what he said when asked what he would do if his child told him he or she was gay? He said "I'd love them". Nuff said.

The point of living on this earth is to learn to get along and respect one another despite our individual differences (and even because of them). What purpose is served by hatred, intolerance, and bigotry? Absolutely none.

Gay people aren't asking you to convert. I think that all they want is your tolerance and respect for the way they live their lives. They want the same rights afforded to straight people, and they want to be able to walk down the street without getting their asses kicked by some ignorant dumbass. The day all of that happens is the day I think you'll see them stop being so vocal about it. There is no purpose served by keeping it hidden away so that straight people can pretend it's not there.

Gay people have an extremely high suicide rate. Don't you think that the way they are viewed and treated by friends, family and society might have something to do with that? And if it were so easy for them to just switch back to heterosexuality and be happy, don't you think they'd rather do that than take their own life?

l2c
 

jkoXP

Banned
Dec 14, 2001
709
0
0


<< If the bible says the Earth is flat, does that make it so? >>


please tell me where in the Bible it says the earth is flat. book and verse please
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<<

<< If the bible says the Earth is flat, does that make it so? >>


please tell me where in the Bible it says the earth is flat. book and verse please
>>

In the bible at least once is referred to the 'four corners of the earth'.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
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<< Makes me wonder: what do you, who thinks that religion is a mere 'sickness', or a 'delusion' >>

I do not think either of these things about religion. You should have known this.


<< think about the countless Catholics who were slaughtered during the time of Nazi Germany? >>

There were none slaughtered.


<< Was it a good, or bad thing? Were those Catholics less 'Human' because of their religious preference? >>

I like how you turn a good comparison into a mere joke.



<< To be honest, I see very little difference between the way Catholics were regarded by many Nazis and the views expressed by certain people in this thread.

Ah the hypocrisy...
>>

Like I pointed out, I do not 'hate', despise or in any other way regard theists in a negative way.

In fact, I consider theists and atheists to be very similar in their ideologies, they both suffer from blind faith and ignorance.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
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<<

<< By now I think that it would be a good idea to give links or other references to some studies which support the claims made in this thread, before it escalates in name-calling. >>



I already gave a link to one study Elledan. You might want to look back before accusing next time.
>>


- I did not accuse anyone of anything.

- I wasn't referring to anyone in particular.

Or like you like to say: your bigotry once again becomes painfully visible.
 

Texmaster

Banned
Jun 5, 2001
5,445
0
0


<< Texmaster - Have you ever had a conversation with a homosexual about their homosexuality? It might open your eyes a bit. >>




Open my eyes? To what do I need my eyes opened to killface?

#1 I have personally hired 3 homosexuals to work for me not because I needed the quota, but because they were the best people for the job.

#2 In a previous thread I said I agree homosexuals should be allowed to adopt children especially when the alternative is an abusive household.

Now before I go any furthur with you, try reading my postings more carefully.

Don't make yourself look foolish yet again killface
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,942
264
126
<<Gay people aren't asking you to convert. I think that all they want is your tolerance and respect for the way they live their lives. They want the same rights afforded to straight people, and they want to be able to walk down the street without getting their asses kicked by some ignorant dumbass.>>

The gay people I've known have not stopped at merely having the same rights, they want special considerations. They want marriage, parental rights, special legal protections, etc. that belong in the heterosexual marriage. One idea that really upsets me is the idea of hate crimes being worse than any other crime. I think giving people extra punishment because their CRIME was a HATE crime is stupid. Enforce the laws of the original crime and then its unnecessary to have special considerations.

<<Gay people have an extremely high suicide rate. Don't you think that the way they are viewed and treated by friends, family and society might have something to do with that? And if it were so easy for them to just switch back to heterosexuality and be happy, don't you think they'd rather do that than take their own life?>>

1. They have a high suicide rate, which has been somewhat supported by statistics. But they also lead a dangerous lifestyle, one prone to catching fatal diseases. Practicing their lifestyle is like playing Russian Roulette.
2. Every gay man I've met has been abnormally soft. Every lesbian I know is abnormally harsh to others. I can see why they will not switch back, it might entail a wholesale baseline id change.
3. Almost every gay man I've met has admmitted being the victim of male on male rape. This is something that seems to go unreported because the majority of these persons were influenced by illegal drugs or alcohol as a minor when it happened.

<<<< think about the countless Catholics who were slaughtered during the time of Nazi Germany?>>
There were none slaughtered.>>

Wrong answer.

<<In fact, I consider theists and atheists to be very similar in their ideologies, they both suffer from blind faith and ignorance.>>

Congrats. Its the first notable quote you've made.

One of my old girlfriends has a brother that is gay. He said one time that if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, and walks like a duck it is probably a duck. He pointed out several married men in the community that were more queer than a $3 bill. For some unknown reason people never questions their gayness because of their beautiful wives. I'm not saying all feminine men with gorgeous wives are gay, just that is the comment he made.
 

Texmaster

Banned
Jun 5, 2001
5,445
0
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<<

<<

<< By now I think that it would be a good idea to give links or other references to some studies which support the claims made in this thread, before it escalates in name-calling. >>



I already gave a link to one study Elledan. You might want to look back before accusing next time.
>>


- I did not accuse anyone of anything.

- I wasn't referring to anyone in particular.
>>



LOL What a liar you are Elledan.

You quote me and respond with this: << By now I think that it would be a good idea to give links or other references to some studies which support the claims made in this thread, before it escalates in name-calling.

I answer it by saying I already gave you the link then you calim you were not replying to me?

If you are going to lie Elledan, try to be less obvious.



<< Or like you like to say: your bigotry once again becomes painfully visible. >>



Thats another thing, get your own material don't try to steal mine.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0


<<

<<

<< If the bible says the Earth is flat, does that make it so? >>


please tell me where in the Bible it says the earth is flat. book and verse please
>>

In the bible at least once is referred to the 'four corners of the earth'.
>>


There's atleast one quote in the Bible that refers to the "sphere" of the earth.
 

Texmaster

Banned
Jun 5, 2001
5,445
0
0


<<

<<

<<

<< If the bible says the Earth is flat, does that make it so? >>


please tell me where in the Bible it says the earth is flat. book and verse please
>>

In the bible at least once is referred to the 'four corners of the earth'.
>>


There's atleast one quote in the Bible that refers to the "sphere" of the earth.
>>



You've already had to say this once if I'm not mistaken.

Would be nice if you didn't have to repeat it huh :)
 

ToBeMe

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2000
5,711
0
0


<<

<<

<< If the bible says the Earth is flat, does that make it so? >>


please tell me where in the Bible it says the earth is flat. book and verse please
>>

In the bible at least once is referred to the 'four corners of the earth'.
>>


ROFLMAO!...............The term, "The Four Cornors Of The Earth" is still used today..........and fairly often at that! Are you implying that the people and media whom use it believe the Earth is "flat"??????????????
rolleye.gif
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<<

<<

<<

<< By now I think that it would be a good idea to give links or other references to some studies which support the claims made in this thread, before it escalates in name-calling. >>



I already gave a link to one study Elledan. You might want to look back before accusing next time.
>>


- I did not accuse anyone of anything.

- I wasn't referring to anyone in particular.
>>



LOL What a liar you are Elledan.

You quote me and respond with this: << By now I think that it would be a good idea to give links or other references to some studies which support the claims made in this thread, before it escalates in name-calling.

I answer it by saying I already gave you the link then you calim you were not replying to me?
>>

OMG... you truly ARE dense...

I quoted both Nemesis77's post and your reply to it so that people would know which kind of claims I was referring to.

That's why I referred to 'the claims made in this thread'. Otherwise I would have said 'your claims' or something like that.



<< If you are going to lie Elledan, try to be less obvious.



<< Or like you like to say: your bigotry once again becomes painfully visible. >>



Thats another thing, get your own material don't try to steal mine.
>>


Please, if you want people to respect you, at least don't act like a friggin' asshole.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<<

<<

<<

<< If the bible says the Earth is flat, does that make it so? >>


please tell me where in the Bible it says the earth is flat. book and verse please
>>

In the bible at least once is referred to the 'four corners of the earth'.
>>


ROFLMAO!...............The term, "The Four Cornors Of The Earth" is still used today..........and fairly often at that! Are you implying that the people and media whom use it believe the Earth is "flat"??????????????
rolleye.gif
>>


I was merely trying to clarify the reason for the original post.

If you want to attack anyone, attack the one who is responsible for the post and not me.
 

Texmaster

Banned
Jun 5, 2001
5,445
0
0


<< I quoted both Nemesis77's post and your reply to it so that people would know which kind of claims I was referring to. >>



Right Elledan. Thats why my quote was on the bottom of the thread where you wrote your reply. LOL Quit lying.



<< That's why I referred to 'the claims made in this thread'. Otherwise I would have said 'your claims' or something like that. >>



Sure. Than why quote anyone? LOL Every time you try in a vain attempt to get around the facts of your post you look less and less credible.



<< Please, if you want people to respect you, at least don't act like a friggin' asshole. >>



LOL Respect is earned and you have a long way to go if you want people to repsect you.

Pretending not to be replying to someone directly after you quote them is pathetic Elledan and trying to hide behind a broader definition to get yourself out of a jam is even more pathetic.
 

killface

Golden Member
Aug 17, 2001
1,416
0
0
Texmaster, I aplogize. I thought you were making some of the anti gay coments -
my question was "Have you ever had a conversation with a homosexual about their homosexuality?" I wasn't trying to attack you. Only curious.
Actually this question goes out to anyone who has a problem with homosexuals here.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0


<< BaliBabyDoc - Touch&eacute;! Thank you for posting all of that.

I'll say it again... Christians should be the LAST ones pointing a finger.
rolleye.gif
The best example of a Christian I can think of is the Rev. Billy Graham. You know what he said when asked what he would do if his child told him he or she was gay? He said "I'd love them". Nuff said.

The point of living on this earth is to learn to get along and respect one another despite our individual differences (and even because of them). What purpose is served by hatred, intolerance, and bigotry? Absolutely none.

Gay people aren't asking you to convert. I think that all they want is your tolerance and respect for the way they live their lives. They want the same rights afforded to straight people, and they want to be able to walk down the street without getting their asses kicked by some ignorant dumbass. The day all of that happens is the day I think you'll see them stop being so vocal about it. There is no purpose served by keeping it hidden away so that straight people can pretend it's not there.

Gay people have an extremely high suicide rate. Don't you think that the way they are viewed and treated by friends, family and society might have something to do with that? And if it were so easy for them to just switch back to heterosexuality and be happy, don't you think they'd rather do that than take their own life?

l2c
>>

This has never been a question of bigotry, atleast from my standpoint... I never have had a problem separating the men from their individual actions - I dispise the act of homosexuality just as I dispise the act of using drugs, etc. but I would never judge a person based on that criteria alone. However when they ask for special rights and laws to be enacted to signify tolerance, thats going too far. Next thing we ought to do is give tax breaks to those who commit incest cuz hey, they're a special group too...
 

Texmaster

Banned
Jun 5, 2001
5,445
0
0


<< Texmaster - my question was "Have you ever had a conversation with a homosexual about their homosexuality?" I'm not trying to attack you. I'm only curious. >>



LOL Sure you are.

And actually I have talked with two homosexuals about homosexuality. Both men had come from broken homes where the father ran out on the family. Both identified with their mother who was strong and took care of them, both learned about the homosexual lifestyle in college. One was raised in a religious household, one was not.

And all of this was shared with me through casual conversation.

And now your point is....



<< Actually this question goes out to anyone who has a problem with homosexuals here. >>



LOL Oh ye the enlightened one. I just told you I have personally hired 3 homosexuals and believe homosexuals can adopt children.

Your moronic theory that because you think homosexuality is a lifestyle means you have a "problem" with homosexuals is simply ignorant.
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
0
0


<<

<< I quoted both Nemesis77's post and your reply to it so that people would know which kind of claims I was referring to. >>



Right Elledan. Thats why my quote was on the bottom of the thread where you wrote your reply. LOL Quit lying.
>>

I already explained why this was the case.



<<

<< That's why I referred to 'the claims made in this thread'. Otherwise I would have said 'your claims' or something like that. >>



Sure. Than why quote anyone?
>>

I already explained that.


<< LOL Every time you try in a vain attempt to get around the facts of your post you look less and less credible.



<< Please, if you want people to respect you, at least don't act like a friggin' asshole. >>



LOL Respect is earned and you have a long way to go if you want people to repsect you.
>>

At least I don't have to act like an asshole in every thread. Don't you think that people ever tired of your never ceasing personal attacks?



<< Pretending not to be replying to someone directly after you quote them is pathetic Elledan and trying to hide behind a broader definition to get yourself out of a jam is even more pathetic. >>


You're a pathetic POS and you know it.

I'm done with this thread. Although it started as a civlized discussion, it has ended up as yet another flamefest.
 

Texmaster

Banned
Jun 5, 2001
5,445
0
0


<< I already explained that. >>



Yes you did. And it was about as believable as Clinton on the witness stand LOL



<< At least I don't have to act like an asshole in every thread. Don't you think that people ever tired of your never ceasing personal attacks? >>




Ever thread huh. Many people who disagree with your ignorant assessment of me. Just because I hold your hypocritical feet ot the fire when you screw up doesn't mean I don't respect anyone here. You are one of the special cases. :)



<< You're a pathetic POS and you know it. >>



Such anger from the Enlightened One! LOL



<< I'm done with this thread. Although it started as a civlized discussion, it has ended up as yet another flamefest. >>



Next time when you lie, don't make it so easy to point out and admit when you screw up, it will make things a lot easier on you.