Is Healthcare a human right?

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Is Healthcare a human right?

  • Yes, but people should pay for it themselves.

  • Yes, and we need a single payer system.

  • No, fuck the poor.

  • No, but everyone should still have good healthcare.


Results are only viewable after voting.

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
In the real world, 50 million Americans don't have health insurance. If you looked at the prices of individual health insurance you'd see why.
If you think health care is expensive now, just wait until the federal government provides it for free!
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
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I know what it cost, I pay for it. Lots of those people choose not to pay for it, and millions more do. Your entitlement mentality is why it cost so much, people using insurance as their personal health care bank account, using it for everything from routine doctor visits to aspirin. Insurance was very affordable before it was used as a blank check.

That's not why insurance costs a lot. It's expensive because big ticket medical care is expensive.

It's not simply a choice to be uninsured. I could see why you'd think that if you've never had to live paycheck to paycheck. If you have $100 or $0 or -$200 after all your bills are paid, how can you possibly "choose" to buy health insurance? And people at those income levels (like me) are an integral part of our economy.

Everybody can't be middle class, and not even the middle class can afford insurance for a family of 4. The health insurance "choice" belongs only to the upper middle class with a lot of disposable income.
 
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Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
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If you think health care is expensive now, just wait until the federal government provides it for free!

I think you mean health insurance, not health care. And countries with public health insurance or universal health insurance (every developed nation but us) spends less on healthcare.

63736965-graphic-comparing.jpg
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
That's not why insurance costs a lot. It's expensive because big ticket medical care is expensive.

It's not simply a choice to be uninsured. I could see why you'd think that if you've never had to live paycheck to paycheck. If you have $100 or $0 or -$200 after all your bills are paid, how can you possibly "choose" to buy health insurance? And people at those income levels (like me) are an integral part of our economy.

Everybody can't be middle class, and not even the middle class can afford insurance for a family of 4. The health insurance "choice" belongs only to the upper middle class with a lot of disposable income.

I hate to break it to you Mr. Emo, but I ain't middle class. If my wife hadn't worked a few months this year we wouldn't have broke $30K. And yes, that is a large part of why it has become so expensive. Insurance used to be solely for big ticket items, that was the entire purpose of it, to be able to get services that were well outside of what you could afford to pay. It wasn't for every time you get the sniffles to go to the doctor and pay for your cold medicine.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
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I hate to break it to you Mr. Emo, but I ain't middle class. If my wife hadn't worked a few months this year we wouldn't have broke $30K. And yes, that is a large part of why it has become so expensive. Insurance used to be solely for big ticket items, that was the entire purpose of it, to be able to get services that were well outside of what you could afford to pay. It wasn't for every time you get the sniffles to go to the doctor and pay for your cold medicine.

If it took your wife working to break $30k, how could you afford individual health insurance? I used to buy my own health insurance for $120, but that was a year long catastrophic policy only. After the year they could drop you, hence the low cost.
 
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xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
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If it took your wife working to break $30k, how could you afford individual health insurance? I used to buy my own health insurance for $120, but that was a year long catastrophic policy only. After the year they could drop you, hence the low cost.

Through work, it's still expensive, but there's the thing called budgeting. The wife and I decided it was worth it to have medical/dental/vision so we forgo things that people normally strap themselves into like car payments, mortgage on a bigger house, etc ...Yea, I'm sick of spaghetti, but my son being able to go to the doctor if he gets sick, or my wife being able to get new glasses when her prescription changes, or me being able to afford my medications were more important than a bunch of other shit we don't really need.

If you lose your job there are ways to get health care, charities, free clinics, Medicare/Medicaid. When I go shot there was a charity that paid my hospital bill, didn't know who they were, or why they did it, didn't even know they had until I received a bill from the hospital saying they had. Point is, there are a shit ton of resources out there to help out if you look.
 
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Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
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Through work, it's still expensive, but there's the thing called budgeting. The wife and I decided it was worth it to have medical/dental/vision so we forgo things that people normally strap themselves into like car payments, mortgage on a bigger house, etc ...Yea, I'm sick of spaghetti, but my son being able to go to the doctor if he gets sick, or my wife being able to get new glasses when her prescription changes, or me being able to afford my medications were more important than a bunch of other shit we don't really need.

If you lose your job there are ways to get health care, charities, free clinics, Medicare/Medicaid. When I go shot there was a charity that paid my hospital bill, didn't know who they were, or why they did it, didn't even know they had until I received a bill from the hospital saying they had. Point is, there are a shit ton of resources out there to help out if you look.

Health insurance through your job and individual health insurance are two separate things.

Charity can't and doesn't pay for medical care for everybody without insurance, so it's not an actual solution. It's a feel-good bandaid. You might as well say that there are plenty of charities to help veterans, therefore we can abolish the VA and let them fend for themselves out on the free market.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,357
8,446
126
I think you mean health insurance, not health care. And countries with public health insurance or universal health insurance (every developed nation but us) spends less on healthcare.

63736965-graphic-comparing.jpg

what the .gov does provide already costs more per capita (not per covered person) than pretty much every other bar on that graph. if you lopped off the private spending from our bar we'd still be very close to the right edge. and we'd have even more people without plan coverage. so, i don't have much faith in the .gov to not screw up.


make medicare/aid/schip/VA more competitive with the rest of the world, then roll it out to the rest of us.
 
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Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
:rolleyes:

Is that the best you got? Pathetic.

It is common sense why everyone doesn't have insurance when medical bills are above a lifetimes wages.

Guess what, that means the insurance is unaffordable too, because they have to make money using actuarial tables that estimate the probability of the cost.

In other words, you are stupid, because insurance fixes nothing when you have runaway healthcare costs.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Health insurance through your job and individual health insurance are two separate things.

Charity can't and doesn't pay for medical care for everybody without insurance, so it's not an actual solution. It's a feel-good bandaid. You might as well say that there are plenty of charities to help veterans, therefore we can abolish the VA and let them fend for themselves out on the free market.

At no time did I say we should abolish insurance because of charities, and I didn't say that they were the fix for lack of insurance. If my work didn't have insurance than oh well, lived without it for decades and didn't cry about, no one "owes" me insurance, or free health care.

I get that sometimes shit sucks, trust me, I've seen it first hand many times, guess what? That's life. It still doesn't mean that health care is a right. I don't look to the government to solve my problems, don't want them to, don't need to.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
It is common sense why everyone doesn't have insurance when medical bills are above a lifetimes wages.

Guess what, that means the insurance is unaffordable too, because they have to make money using actuarial tables that estimate the probability of the cost.

In other words, you are stupid, because insurance fixes nothing when you have runaway healthcare costs.

That would explain why so many people have insurance ...oh wait, no it doesn't :rolleyes: If you think that's the only reason cost are so high you are ignorant.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Through work, it's still expensive, but there's the thing called budgeting. The wife and I decided it was worth it to have medical/dental/vision so we forgo things that people normally strap themselves into like car payments, mortgage on a bigger house, etc ...Yea, I'm sick of spaghetti, but my son being able to go to the doctor if he gets sick, or my wife being able to get new glasses when her prescription changes, or me being able to afford my medications were more important than a bunch of other shit we don't really need.

If you lose your job there are ways to get health care, charities, free clinics, Medicare/Medicaid. When I go shot there was a charity that paid my hospital bill, didn't know who they were, or why they did it, didn't even know they had until I received a bill from the hospital saying they had. Point is, there are a shit ton of resources out there to help out if you look.
Very good point. I don't know how many people have told me they can't afford health insurance but they have a $20,000+ automobile and a $500 telephone with a $100+ monthly data plan. I know a guy who bought a Harley, cost over $25,000, doesn't have a dime's worth of health insurance. Anyone with a motorcycle and no health insurance is a moron. (Yeah, I'm not his favorite guy right now.) Unless maybe they have a cheap motorcycle and can't afford a car.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Very good point. I don't know how many people have told me they can't afford health insurance but they have a $20,000+ automobile and a $500 telephone with a $100+ monthly data plan. I know a guy who bought a Harley, cost over $25,000, doesn't have a dime's worth of health insurance. Anyone with a motorcycle and no health insurance is a moron. (Yeah, I'm not his favorite guy right now.) Unless maybe they have a cheap motorcycle and can't afford a car.

Exactly right, lot's of people choose not to pay for insurance so they can afford other things like a new car, or house, or that several thousand dollar hot new LED/LCD 50+" TV, 1000 channels of reality TV to go with it, cell phones for every member of their family, and eat out every night, and then have the nerve to cry about being broke. Yes, there's some hard cases that really need it, and truly can not afford it, but that doesn't appear to be the norm. I know a couple that always complained about how broke they were, what did they do? sold their perfectly fine cars, refinanced their house and then went out and bought TWO new cars, credit cards maxed to the hilt and then wonder where all their money went. Ridiculous.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
That would explain why so many people have insurance ...oh wait, no it doesn't :rolleyes: If you think that's the only reason cost are so high you are ignorant.

Nice statistical data you have to support your claim.

How many people have adequate health insurance in the United States?
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
At no time did I say we should abolish insurance because of charities, and I didn't say that they were the fix for lack of insurance. If my work didn't have insurance than oh well, lived without it for decades and didn't cry about, no one "owes" me insurance, or free health care.

I get that sometimes shit sucks, trust me, I've seen it first hand many times, guess what? That's life. It still doesn't mean that health care is a right. I don't look to the government to solve my problems, don't want them to, don't need to.

So if your wife was diagnosed with cancer, and had no health insurance, what would you do? Tell her "tough luck" and let her die? Or get treatment that you'd never be able to pay for?

Does she have a right to be treated and live or doesn't she?
 
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Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
71
That would explain why so many people have insurance ...oh wait, no it doesn't :rolleyes: If you think that's the only reason cost are so high you are ignorant.

Aside from pre-existing conditions which still exist today, move to a different employer, get fucked, get laid off, get fucked.

And this issue isn't about people who are making 50k/y+ and have cars it's about those that don't and those who don't have the best families to help them out either.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Nice statistical data you have to support your claim.

How many people have adequate health insurance in the United States?

If the claim is that 50 million are uninsured, or under insured, and there's 300 million in America than that would mean that 250 million have adequate insurance. That was just using logic based on the numbers spouted from the media and liberals. If you want factual data, and I doubt you do since it tears the claims apart, than a little research is all you need.

Of course according to one report that used 2010 Census data, that number is not accurate, the real number is more like 46 million people, 10 million of whom are not US citizens, so more like 36 million Americans are not, or under insured. Also it appears that 17 million of those 36 million make more than $50K, and over half of those make more than $75K, this lead the National Bureau of Economic Research (just one of several papers) to determine that 25-75% of those that do not have coverage could afford it.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
If the claim is that 50 million are uninsured, or under insured, and there's 300 million in America than that would mean that 250 million have adequate insurance. That was just using logic based on the numbers spouted from the media and liberals. If you want factual data, and I doubt you do since it tears the claims apart, than a little research is all you need.

Of course according to one report that used 2010 Census data, that number is not accurate, the real number is more like 46 million people, 10 million of whom are not US citizens, so more like 36 million Americans are not, or under insured. Also it appears that 17 million of those 36 million make more than $50K, and over half of those make more than $75K, this lead the National Bureau of Economic Research (just one of several papers) to determine that 25-75% of those that do not have coverage could afford it.

You are counting people on current welfare systems as adequately covered.

You are then double counting them into estimated costs of a universal healthcare plan.

This is the only way you can get the "people uninsured" that low, as well as getting cost figures that high.

With U6 unemployment at ~17%, and 1/4 of the countrys population being children... You are off by insanely huge numbers.

We can either take your quotes as foolhearty or outright falsifications.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
So if your wife was diagnosed with cancer, and had no health insurance, what would you do? Tell her "tough luck" and let her die? Or get treatment that you'd never be able to pay for?

Does she have a right to be treated and live or doesn't she?

We do have insurance. I work, and we go without so that we have that security. If there was no way for us to get, or afford the treatment than she would die, as would anybody, as people did long before cancer was treatable. Here's a pro-tip about life, no one get's out alive.

Aside from pre-existing conditions which still exist today, move to a different employer, get fucked, get laid off, get fucked.

And this issue isn't about people who are making 50k/y+ and have cars it's about those that don't and those who don't have the best families to help them out either.

The facts say that we can fix health care coverage, and help those people without a thousand plus page bill of bad legislature, and forcing everyone into government run health care coverage.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
You are counting people on current welfare systems as adequately covered.

You are then double counting them into estimated costs of a universal healthcare plan.

This is the only way you can get the "people uninsured" that low, as well as getting cost figures that high.

With U6 unemployment at ~17%, and 1/4 of the countrys population being children... You are off by insanely huge numbers.

We can either take your quotes as foolhearty or outright falsifications.

"I" am not counting anybody, but since you are making the claim ...prove it, don't just say it. The numbers I have read are taken from the Census, is it off by insanely huge numbers? A lot of those people and the children are already eligible for insurance from the government.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
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I think part of the problem here is that our country has become so pussy-fied that the thought of someone dying, due to pretty much anything, but certainly something that they percieve as "preventable," causes little bleeding hearts everywhere to quiver and cry.

People die. Poor people die first. It's the way of the world. In most of the world, you can still die from looking at someone the wrong way. Life is cheap. Yours, as an American, is substantially more valuable, but not priceless.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
"I" am not counting anybody, but since you are making the claim ...prove it, don't just say it. The numbers I have read are taken from the Census, is it off by insanely huge numbers? A lot of those people and the children are already eligible for insurance from the government.

That is what i am saying.

You are double counting people who are already covered by government plans. These plans would be dropped in favor of the UHS.

You no longer need medicare and medicaid or chips or the VA if you implement a universal healthcare system.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
I think part of the problem here is that our country has become so pussy-fied that the thought of someone dying, due to pretty much anything, but certainly something that they percieve as "preventable," causes little bleeding hearts everywhere to quiver and cry.

People die. Poor people die first. It's the way of the world. In most of the world, you can still die from looking at someone the wrong way. Life is cheap. Yours, as an American, is substantially more valuable, but not priceless.

We are not the rest of the world. Especially the 3rd world you describe.