Is Healthcare a human right?

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Is Healthcare a human right?

  • Yes, but people should pay for it themselves.

  • Yes, and we need a single payer system.

  • No, fuck the poor.

  • No, but everyone should still have good healthcare.


Results are only viewable after voting.

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
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It is obvious? If it was, why did it disappear for so long? Why wasn't it granted to Slaves, Women, Gays?

Oh, so because at different points in history people rights have been taken than they must not be rights? How do you say? Fail.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,225
5,801
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Oh, so because at different points in history people rights have been taken than they must not be rights? How do you say? Fail.

I said no such thing. I'm merely inquiring where you guys think these Rights come from.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
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I said no such thing. I'm merely inquiring where you guys think these Rights come from.

You even pre-assumed them too by using them as examples of people who's rights were oppressed.

Liberty is the default. It is what exists in the absence of oppression.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,225
5,801
126
You even pre-assumed them too by using them as examples of people who's rights were oppressed.

Liberty is the default. It is what exists in the absence of oppression.

Now we're getting somewhere. I agree with this. Rights are a declaration of principles meant to ensure Natural Liberty in a Synthetic World. As such they are not a Given or as obvious as Life. The Synthetic World runs roughshod over the Natural, thus the concept of Rights are used to restore a part of the Natural World within the Synthetic World. This is why All haven't had their Rights from the beginning of the US(and Others) Constitution/Bill of Rights. The Synthetic World has needed to be forced to relinquish its' grip, one layer at a time, thus spreading Liberty to more and more.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,512
16,230
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Now we're getting somewhere. I agree with this. Rights are a declaration of principles meant to ensure Natural Liberty in a Synthetic World. As such they are not a Given or as obvious as Life. The Synthetic World runs roughshod over the Natural, thus the concept of Rights are used to restore a part of the Natural World within the Synthetic World. This is why All haven't had their Rights from the beginning of the US(and Others) Constitution/Bill of Rights. The Synthetic World has needed to be forced to relinquish its' grip, one layer at a time, thus spreading Liberty to more and more.

So you agree, rights are not "granted" by our government, they are merely secured.

Glad you came around.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,225
5,801
126
So you agree, rights are not "granted" by our government, they are merely secured.

Glad you came around.

Not exactly. "Rights" are granted, Liberty isn't. Rights exist to ensure/restore Liberty. This is why they are enshrined in Documents, Judged by Courts, and constantly being sought or denied. When you say "secured", I can understand where you're coming from now, but me saying "granted" is also correct, although I see where the discrepancy/confusion comes into play now.

Hmm, I'll have to mull it over for awhile. The Philosophical subtleties are intriguing.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
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If a fetus has the right to life, does that mean that right should be fulfilled by the government, or does the fetus only have the freedom to live, if it's able to make it out of the womb alive?
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,512
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If a fetus has the right to life, does that mean that right should be fulfilled by the government, or does the fetus only have the freedom to live, if it's able to make it out of the womb alive?

The alternative question: Is it right to force a human to be a life support system for another human?
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,512
16,230
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Not exactly. "Rights" are granted, Liberty isn't. Rights exist to ensure/restore Liberty. This is why they are enshrined in Documents, Judged by Courts, and constantly being sought or denied. When you say "secured", I can understand where you're coming from now, but me saying "granted" is also correct, although I see where the discrepancy/confusion comes into play now.

Hmm, I'll have to mull it over for awhile. The Philosophical subtleties are intriguing.

Uh oh. You're in danger of thinking about some things like I do! :p

By the way, rights are specific liberties.

Think of liberty as the car, and rights as the individual parts of that car.
 
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Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
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Uh oh. You're in danger of thinking about some things like I do! :p

By the way, rights are specific liberties.

Think of liberty as the car, and rights as the individual parts of that car.

A car is worthless without roads built by government.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
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The alternative question: Is it right to force a human to be a life support system for another human?

We do it everyday. Our entire system laws and government that defines your rights is paid for by tax payers. The infrastructure to regulate those rights from the courts to the Sheriff to enforce them are forced out of me..

All we are bargaining about is how much.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,512
16,230
146
We do it everyday. Our entire system laws and government that defines your rights is paid for by tax payers. The infrastructure to regulate those rights from the courts to the Sheriff to enforce them are forced out of me..

All we are bargaining about is how much.

The government doesn't define my rights, it secures them.

The government exists to secure our individual rights.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
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The government doesn't define my rights, it secures them.

The government exists to secure our individual rights.

Yes, and the government should secure our right to healthcare, so that we don't have to steal it from providers.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Yes, and the government should secure our right to healthcare, so that we don't have to steal it from providers.

You already have access to health care services provided by professionals, the governments role is over, now it's your responsibility to provide adequate payment for services rendered.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,512
16,230
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Yes, and the government should secure our right to healthcare, so that we don't have to steal it from providers.

Yes, and the government should secure our right to housing, so that we don't have to steal it from property owners.

Yes, and the government should secure our right to food, so that we don't have to steal it from farmers.

I could go on and on... but the best example is:

Yes, and the government should secure our right to (insert Throckmorton's work product here), so that we don't have to steal it from Throckmorton.

What you have is called "a sense of entitlement."
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
The government doesn't define my rights, it secures them.

The government exists to secure our individual rights.

Every right you have is defined by the govt or as Jefferson would say "instituted among men" Property rights, contract rights, speech rights, whatever and it secures them with tax money. It's all a human creation, thought up and built by humans and can be changed by humans if any of its workings become destructive to the lives of humans.

Adding health care rights to the millions of other rights would be no different.
 
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Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,512
16,230
146
Every right you have is defined by the govt or as Jefferson would say "instituted among men" Property rights, contract rights, speech rights, whatever and it secures them with tax money. It's all a human creation, thought up and built by humans and can be changed by humans if any of its workings become destructive to the lives of humans.

I suggest you go back and read the thread.

Rights and freedom cannot be "granted" because liberty is the default that exists in the absence of oppression. Liberty can ONLY be secured or guaranteed. You cannot give something that was already there without your interference.

Jefferson said the government is instituted by men, but that liberty and rights are inherent.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

See that? Liberty is the default. The inherent. "Government instituted among men" exists only to "secure" that liberty. NOT grant it. You cannot grant something to someone that they would, by default, have were no one to interfere with them.
 
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Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
You already have access to health care services provided by professionals, the governments role is over, now it's your responsibility to provide adequate payment for services rendered.

What if they price services rendered for 2 years of cancer treatment above a lifetime of income?
 

sonicdrummer20

Senior member
Jul 2, 2008
474
0
0
Well someone is definitely an entitlement whore! You shouldn't be guaranteed anything more than the right to life peace and happiness. The Government cannot guarantee a job healthcare nor even food, yet they wish to burden the working class with taxes so that nonworking people can live comfortably.

I am not going to pay for someone else to sit on their ass while I work 40-50 hour work weeks.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
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Well someone is definitely an entitlement whore! You shouldn't be guaranteed anything more than the right to life peace and happiness. The Government cannot guarantee a job healthcare nor even food, yet they wish to burden the working class with taxes so that nonworking people can live comfortably.

I am not going to pay for someone else to sit on their ass while I work 40-50 hour work weeks.

The middle class loses its health insurance when it loses its jobs.

Once your middle class job gets outsourced to India, good luck buying health insurance for your family on $20k part time wages, when your wife has breast cancer and one of your children has autism. It's not gonna happen bro. But that's no problem huh, because healthcare is "not a right"?

Fuck the poor... until we're the poor.
 
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xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
In the real world, 50 million Americans don't have health insurance. If you looked at the prices of individual health insurance you'd see why.

I know what it cost, I pay for it. Lots of those people choose not to pay for it, and millions more do. Your entitlement mentality is why it cost so much, people using insurance as their personal health care bank account, using it for everything from routine doctor visits to aspirin. Insurance was very affordable before it was used as a blank check.