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Is Disrespecting the Flag the same as Disrespecting the National Anthem?

S

s0me0nesmind1

Lifer
Ran into a post from an old friend on social media recently and found this one a bit baffling.

Context: The guy is pretty far left-leaning. Loved Obama, etc. Also served in the military. For BLM, etc.


As we go into the holiday weekend, I wanna send a shout to the morons on both sides of the political world:

1. For the guys on the left picture, they are peacefully protesting . . . one of the most “American” things you can do. But they choose to do it while kneeling on the flag?

[Didn't include #2 since it doesn't pertain to this thread - it's basically a right-wing protester doing something stupid - hence the "both sides"

In today’s world, where it becomes more and more difficult to avoid political extremism, it would warm my soul to see someone slap all four of these guys. Everyone have a good weekend.
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So an obvious question to me is: What is the difference between standing on the flag kneeling, vs. kneeling during the national anthem? Or even just placing a flag on the ground? Or soiling it in dirt? Or putting it up on a pole up-side down? All of them are the same thing - which is not doing what we have deemed as "appropriate".



Now to me - Both are icons that represent our country. The flag is just stupid cloth woven in a certain pattern to represent our country. The national anthem is an officially declared song that represents our country.

Both of these are "valued" as symbols of our country.

Both of these are asked to be "respected" - e.g. taking your hat off, standing, saluting, hand over heart, etc.

Both of these have historic values.



.....But for some reason this guy seems to think that one is vastly different. What says AT?


Personally I take a George Carlin approach to both of them, but I'm still scratching my head as to why this person thinks one is more disrespectful, inappropriate, etc... than the other

 
False dilemma. Kneeling is not disrespectful. Kneeling as a form of protest is protected free speech. Comparing that with intentional damaging of the flag is just plain ol bullshit.

Edit: that pic didn't show up for me before I posted. I agree that kneeling on the flag (with the flag on the ground) is disrespectful, but it's still protected free speech. Like it or not, this is settled law.
 
Vic said:
False dilemma. Kneeling is not disrespectful. Kneeling as a form of protest is protected free speech. Comparing that with intentional damaging oc the flag is just plain ol bullshit.
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Uhhhhh.... Doing whatever you want with an American Flag is protected free speech as well (presuming it's YOUR flag obviously).

Be it throwing it in the dirt, or burning it.

Also they aren't really damaging the flag - it's just on the ground. Nothing says you can't wash it afterwards (contrary to popular belief, having a flag hit the ground doesn't mean you're supposed to burn it).
 
Vic said:
False dilemma. Kneeling is not disrespectful. Kneeling as a form of protest is protected free speech. Comparing that with intentional damaging oc the flag is just plain ol bullshit.
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I would agree to this, though I'd also say that worshiping either a song or a standard is idiotic, and disparaging someone for using them for another message (assuming that message isn't one of hate) is the wrong path.

I say let them burn in the name of social justice, we've been overdue.
 
Vic said:
Edit: that pic didn't show up for me before I posted. I agree that kneeling on the flag (with the flag on the ground) is disrespectful, but it's still protected free speech. Like it or not, this is settled law.
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I'm not asking what the law is though - nor am I really asking if it's right or wrong.

I'm asking because this is a guy that was all about being in favor of Kaepernick - but for some reason he finds this to be reprehensible. I fail to see any vast differences.
 
s0me0nesmind1 said:
I'm not asking what the law is though - nor am I really asking if it's right or wrong.

I'm asking because this is a guy that was all about being in favor of Kaepernick - but for some reason he finds this to be reprehensible. I fail to see any vast differences.
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There is an obvious difference between kneeling while the national anthem is being played and kneeling on the flag with the flag on the ground. The former is in no way disrespectful except to the partisans who created that narrative out of thin air to try to silence Kaep's speech. While the latter is clearly disrespectful (although still protected speech) as it involves physically degrading the flag (putting on the ground, stepping on it, etc).

You're confused because your friend is demonstrating something you lack: critical thinking skills.
 
Vic said:
There is an obvious difference between kneeling while the national anthem is being played and kneeling on the flag with the flag on the ground. The former is in no way disrespectful except to the partisans who were trying to silence Kaep's speech. While the latter is obviously disrespectful (although still protected speech) as it involves degrading the flag (putting on the ground, stepping on it, etc).

You're confused because your friend is demonstrating something you lack: critical thinking skills.
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Kneeling during the anthem... as I said... is disrespectful. You're asked to stand literally EVERY fucking time it's played. There is no question here that it is disrespectful.

It's the same thing - both are disrespectful as defined by our "rules"
Both are free speech (I agree)
 
s0me0nesmind1 said:
Kneeling during the anthem... as I said... is disrespectful. You're asked to stand literally EVERY fucking time it's played. There is no question here that it is disrespectful.

It's the same thing - both are disrespectful as defined by our "rules"
Both are free speech (I agree)
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People are asked to stand for the national anthem because sitting for it, or otherwise ignoring that it is being played, is considered disrespectful. Kneeling during the national anthem is not disrespectful because it does not involve ignoring that the anthem is being played.
As I pointed out, the narrative that kneeling is disrespectful was invented out of thin air in order to find a way to condemn Kaep's protest without appearing racist. You won't find a reference to kneeling being disrespectful prior to Kaep. It's not even in the flag code.
 
The only difference really is people's emotional attachment and whatever feels they project onto any action, in this case protest using enshrined American icons and symbols. .

For your friend, maybe he sees the flag as a tangible thing or has some sort of emotional attachment to it that he does not have toward the national anthem, which overrides any sort of logical thinking. Maybe he's got a crush on Kaep, who knows.

Just because someone is "on the left" doesn't make them vulcans or somehow immune from the same emotional foibles that befall all of us now and again. We're all human and all infinitely fallible, although some are more fallible than others.
 
Vic said:
People are asked to stand for the national anthem because sitting for it, or otherwise ignoring that it is being played, is considered disrespectful. Kneeling during the national anthem is not disrespectful because it does not involve ignoring that the anthem is being played.
As I pointed out, the narrative that kneeling is disrespectful was invented out of thin air in order to find a way to condemn Kaep's protest without appearing racist. You won't find a reference to kneeling being disrespectful prior to Kaep. It's not even in the flag code.
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Guess I'll have to have an "agree to disagree" here then I suppose. You believe deliberately disobeying a commonly known respectful gesture that is asked of everyone isn't disrespect, I believe it is.

But I mean also on that note of you deeming that the picture is "disrespectful" - who is the arbitrator of what is and isn't? Judging by the photo I see in the background "I can't breathe" - so I'm guessing this picture might have been from a George Floyd protest. It seems like they are trying to convey a message that America is being choked? (hence the knee gesture of what the cop did). I could easily argue that they aren't displaying any disrespect. Regardless, it's all up to an individual's perspective.

I just find that the two are incredibly similar, but for some reason one is deemed as not disrespectful for some unknown reason.
 
s0me0nesmind1 said:
Guess I'll have to have an "agree to disagree" here then I suppose. You believe deliberately disobeying a commonly known respectful gesture that is asked of everyone isn't disrespect, I believe it is.

But I mean also on that note of you deeming that the picture is "disrespectful" - who is the arbitrator of what is and isn't? Judging by the photo I see in the background "I can't breathe" - so I'm guessing this picture might have been from a George Floyd protest. It seems like they are trying to convey a message that America is being choked? (hence the knee gesture of what the cop did). I could easily argue that they aren't displaying any disrespect. Regardless, it's all up to an individual's perspective.

I just find that the two are incredibly similar, but for some reason one is deemed as not disrespectful for some unknown reason.
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Here’s the thing. Someone believes it’s disrespect. Others see it as something else. Do you respect every belief others have? Do you abide by them? I find questioning how someone chooses to exercise their free speech disrespectful. So be it. That’s my opinion.

The flag is disrespected every day by the very people who would complain about this if you use this standard. It’s underwear. Shirts. It’s emblazoned over with names people of political convenience.

This is just an example of more selective outrage.
 
I'm not American so I dont have the weird fetish about national symbols that you guys do but kneeling on the flag is obviously being done to be more provocative than just kneeling during an anthem. You guys play the anthem before pretty much every public event dont you? Dont try to tell me that a bunch of people arent dashing to the bar as thats playing before a sporting event!
 
s0me0nesmind1 said:
Guess I'll have to have an "agree to disagree" here then I suppose. You believe deliberately disobeying a commonly known respectful gesture that is asked of everyone isn't disrespect, I believe it is.

But I mean also on that note of you deeming that the picture is "disrespectful" - who is the arbitrator of what is and isn't? Judging by the photo I see in the background "I can't breathe" - so I'm guessing this picture might have been from a George Floyd protest. It seems like they are trying to convey a message that America is being choked? (hence the knee gesture of what the cop did). I could easily argue that they aren't displaying any disrespect. Regardless, it's all up to an individual's perspective.

I just find that the two are incredibly similar, but for some reason one is deemed as not disrespectful for some unknown reason.
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But are you really able to agree to disagree. Everything about your posts speak to me of moral certainty, a state of mind for which no deviation can be brooked. You have connected in your mind the notion that there is such a thing as real respect, which there is, with the idea that what you believe is the real thing. This can be the result of being conditioned by a past in which every deviation from respectfulness was met by contempt. It might be, in my opinion, that the reason Jesus was fond of those among us who wonder lost in a state of humiliation, the least among us, because it is they who have less distance to travel to redemption. They have had their egotism beaten out of them by self introspection. They have lost certainty.

I like to think that in a real state of reverence for all things the reverence is like the sun, the outward radiation so bright that no form at all of disrespect can enter in. Loving life is the best way to respect everything.
 
s0me0nesmind1 said:
I'm not asking what the law is though - nor am I really asking if it's right or wrong.

I'm asking because this is a guy that was all about being in favor of Kaepernick - but for some reason he finds this to be reprehensible. I fail to see any vast differences.
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Respect/disrespect is in the eye of the beholder.

A better person wouldn’t ask if someone is being disrespectful, they would ask what’s the reasoning behind such actions.
 
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A flag is nothing more than a piece of cloth that we assign value to and give our un-conditional loyalty to because it was pounded into our heads from age 5 on when we had to pledge allegiance to our flag every day at school. It's no different than religion in that way. Only when you get older do you realize that a flag is nothing more than an illusion and a piece of cloth created to divide us from our fellow human beings so they can control us. If someone knealing on a flag makes you angry then you're making that illusion real and giving it power.
 
In my opinion health care in all of its aspects, including the search for effective treatment and prevention of disease should be a national priority warranting a military level service corp. Medicine from education, to research, to delivery should be nationalized. The motivation needs to switch from making a killing to service to humanity. We need a path to a decent life for our population other than crime and drugs and personal greed.
 
First you have to tease out what a FLAG, SONG, LOYALTY OATH, etc, really are. They are SYMBOLS.

Second, you have to agree to what the symbol represents. Does the US Flag Represent the United States as a land mass? As a "land of freedom"? As an Empire that acts Imperially? If you aren't stating what the symbol represents, then two people talking about those symbols could be talking about two different things.

Symbols can be accurate, and they can be not accurate. If you use a US Flag as a symbol of FREEDOM, then I think you could say that it's hypocritical, in a whole lot of ways. Not just slavery, but racism, second-class-citizens, systemic racism, personal racism, wage slavery, mass incarceration, etc, ad nauseam.

So, what is the SYMBOL trying to represent? First, figure that out, otherwise you're having an argument where the crux of the issue isn't even the same thing.

if you equate the National Anthem and the US Flag as representing "THE UNITED STATES", then someone kneeling during the song while putting their feet on the flag, would be doubly disrespecting "THE UNITED STATES".

If you believe that the National Anthem and the US Flag are symbols of "FREEDOM HYPOCRISY", then kneeling during a song and putting your feet on the flag isn't trying to disrespect THE UNITED STATES, it is disrespecting FREEDOM HYPOCRISY.

Kneeling during the National Anthem, while also kneeling on the flag (which for, uh, reasons, should never be just lying on the ground) is a double-protest, so for people who think those symbols represent "THE UNITED STATES", then it's a double disrespect for a country, and could be extra disrespectful for the people who see it this way.

Kneeling during the National Anthem, while also kneeling on the flag is a double-protest, so for people who think those symbols represent "FREEDOM HYPOCRISY", then it's a double disrespect for hypocrisy, and at the same time, the highest form of both Free Speech, and Patriotism.

Guess how the guy who views kneeling on a flag during a song views those symbols. Clearly, the person in the OP views those symbols as representing "THE UNITED STATES".

Me?

I'd never burn the US Flag, unless it was made illegal. Any law prohibiting the burning of a symbol would be a direct Constitutional violation of power. I'd be on the nearest local/city/state/federal capitol with a suitcase full of flags and lighter fluid.

And patriotism isn't "my country right or wrong", that's nationalist jingoism. Patriotism is loving your country and wanting it to be in it's best form. Advocating for changing the US so that it doesn't scream about freedom while being internally and externally oppressive is very patriotic.

Guess how I view peaceful protests of cloth, songs and loyalty oaths that are for some reason reified/deified in this country.
 
s0me0nesmind1 said:
Ran into a post from an old friend on social media recently and found this one a bit baffling.

Context: The guy is pretty far left-leaning. Loved Obama, etc. Also served in the military. For BLM, etc.





View attachment 24847

So an obvious question to me is: What is the difference between standing on the flag kneeling, vs. kneeling during the national anthem? Or even just placing a flag on the ground? Or soiling it in dirt? Or putting it up on a pole up-side down? All of them are the same thing - which is not doing what we have deemed as "appropriate".



Now to me - Both are icons that represent our country. The flag is just stupid cloth woven in a certain pattern to represent our country. The national anthem is an officially declared song that represents our country.

Both of these are "valued" as symbols of our country.

Both of these are asked to be "respected" - e.g. taking your hat off, standing, saluting, hand over heart, etc.

Both of these have historic values.



.....But for some reason this guy seems to think that one is vastly different. What says AT?


Personally I take a George Carlin approach to both of them, but I'm still scratching my head as to why this person thinks one is more disrespectful, inappropriate, etc... than the other

Click to expand...
Why do you waste time creating a thread when you don't care about the subject. Why do I say this?
 
Vic said:
There is an obvious difference between kneeling while the national anthem is being played and kneeling on the flag with the flag on the ground. The former is in no way disrespectful except to the partisans who created that narrative out of thin air to try to silence Kaep's speech. While the latter is clearly disrespectful (although still protected speech) as it involves physically degrading the flag (putting on the ground, stepping on it, etc).
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The supposed disrespect of kneeling on a flag would only exist in your own head, the flag isn't being disrespected. It can't be disrespected; it's just a piece of cloth. It has no conscience or feelings. So it's all merely projection.

Mericans take their flags too fking serious anyway I say. I saw a U.S. gas station on TV once, in some news report IIRC. It had about eleventeen flags on little poles sticking out decorating all around the sides of the roof over the gas pumps. When I see shit like that I'm like...why? Don't you know already which country you're in? What's the big deal? "It shows my national pride!" Hokay, well does it really require THAT many flags? Wouldn't just one strategically placed flag do the job much better?

*shrug*

Nationalism. Can't think of ONE god damn good thing that ever came out of it. Mostly it's just an excuse for getting away with bad shit in a way that makes people still feel good about themselves.
 
We need to spend less time worrying about how people protest and more time trying to understand why they are protesting.

I am not condoning violence in protests.
 
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