Is DC harming the planet?

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
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For myself, I have just one computer running, averaging about 600 Watts almost 24/7. I know a lot of you are burning a lot more than me 2~10+ times the power.

I wonder... Do you ever think about or worry about climate change? Or the impact as a whole team? Trying to find ET, or some mega prime.... I've always been aware of my power usage, and often wondered if I could still do DC off of renewable power (probably) but not at 600 watts. Maybe 600 watts with full sun.

When living off grid, I could not do DC, or very limited. Since, I didn't have the capacity of storage or solar panels to do so. Only recently, I have the opportunity to do so, after buying an small office space in Downtown. I think sometimes, I might be more acceptable to the idea if I knew my power was coming from Hydro or Wind. But, I know my power is being generated, in hawaii, by bunker fuel. Ish.... Even worse I'm using up a lot more AC. Not very sustainable by any stretch.

As I take a few steps back to look at my own carbon footprint, I need to seriously reflect on my actions that I take today.

Thoughts???
 
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VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
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Thoughts???
Is she not aware of the project ran by IBM's World Community Grid, that found some molecular solutions for improved solar cells? Thus, MORE GREEN, NOT LESS.

DC is not evil. Maybe Bitcoin, if they stick with Proof of Work, I think that the jury's still out on that one.

But, computational solutions exist for many "large problems", and what better way to "democratize the costs", than DC?

Edit: And for my (meager) budget, I try to update as often as I can, to the most energy-efficient CPUs and GPUs on the market that I can get a hold of at my price points.

Hence my purchase of two MSI Ventus OC GTX 1660 ti cards, and selling off my RX 570 cards, which themselves 2-3 years ago were the darling of power efficiency, with the heralding in of 14nm GPUs.

I mean, it's not like we're trying to do DC these days on Pentium 4 rigs, with 8800GT GPUs.

Edit: I didn't watch the video, but if DC is somehow inefficient, then "let the market sort it out", with the price of energy and computational hardware / R&D.

Edit: I assume that she's a little typical leftist, keen on demonizing anything useful or pleasurable, such that video games and the computers that allow us to play them, are "killing the planet", and need to be taxed out of existance, or banned altogether. Just like AoC doesn't want the human race to have cars or airplanes.

Edit: You know what's NOT green? Heating your home during the winter. Just dumb energy consumption. Why not, use electric power for DC work, while at the SAME TIME, HEATING YOUR HOME. That power expended, doesn't go to waste, it goes towards USEFUL COMPUTATIONS, to SOLVE THE WORLD'S BIGGER PROBLEMS.
 
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crashtech

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Hmm, I feel like I ought to stay far away from this topic like I ought to stay away from the P&N subforum. At least I can say that a majority of the power used for my DC rigs comes from hydro power, and that I do participate in the Climate Prediction@Home project, when it is working properly. But I honestly think the models still need a lot of work, it's a very hard problem to predict the future of our climate.
 

IEC

Elite Member
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Jun 10, 2004
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100% of my power comes from renewable sources. This is where my personal beliefs about sustainability override my political skepticism of the motivations of the people pushing the global cooling peak oil global warming AGW climate change agenda. That said, I happen to think Greta Thunberg is a victim of child abuse and is being used as a tool to further that agenda. That's as much as I will say without devolving into Poly-ticks and Noose.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
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Thanks for the responses so far. I find them interesting (since she is pushing SCIENCE)... and we are all doing that work for science.

One thing I was thinking about ... was finding someone... Maybe a team member that lives in say, I don't know a really LOW cost / per kW hour state, like say washington state that has a lot of renewable Hydropower to keep the cost down. We could collectively as a whole ... support this person that would hopefully have a big building...

Yeah, I did some research and washington state says that business companies can get rates as low as 2.4 cent per kWh...not sure how you would qualify for that rate. But that is insanely CHEAP. Just the power savings alone that we all pay to do DC, could cover the equipment costs.

What about maintenance and equipment replacement if a fan dies and equipment burns up, or worse a fire, or lightning strike and takes out half of the computers. Maybe other teams have done something like this???

Just a thought, as I myself, might be rethinking my own carbon footprint, just because I live in Hawaii that doesn't rely on renewable energy.

Maybe I should not have put her link on my thread... but... I thought about myself... and she does bring up a lot of good points about how we are gonna be screwed if we don't start changing our ways. So that's why I thought about what I was doing myself and how I came here to post it. This isn't a left or right discussion.

Cheers!
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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Since every penny I spend on DC is to try and cure cancer, I don't worry about the environment, especially when virtually all of my power comes from Solar, wind or water (Bonneville dam and the like).
 
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zzuupp

Lifer
Jul 6, 2008
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I know this isn't a proper response to those arguments. But..... here I go
If DC is killing the planet, cryptocurrency is kicking, stomping, burning, and then nuking it just to make sure.

To their argument, I don't feel like that I have to live the life of an ascetic monk because any extraneous power usage is a precursor to the holocaust.
 

StefanR5R

Elite Member
Dec 10, 2016
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I didn't watch the video either, but these folks are exactly right: Politics needs to be based on science; and changes need to be brought about, and soon.

Mankind did it in the past (saved the ozone layer, got rid of leaded fuel...) and will do it again, despite the resistance of those who invested heavily into and benefit from the status quo. But I am also sure that a lot more damage will be done and ignored until action is taken.

Re Distributed Computing: The science could be performed with lower ecological impact in top-of-the-line data centers. However, many of these are already occupied with other important tasks.*) Therefore it's good that volunteers are donating computer capacity to the advancement of knowledge; be it number theory or the physics of the macro cosmos and micro cosmos, of proteins, and so on.

Here in Germany, electric power generation is currently from ~60 % non-renewable sources. But earlier this year I (finally) switched to a tariff at which I pay for 100 % renewable power. Meaning in particular, that my provider partly imports Norvegian hydro power, and my payments go only to that portion of my provider's power purchases. (Across all its customers, my electricity provider distributes 56 % renewables, 31 % natural gas, 11 % coal, 2 % nuclear, according to their last report.) The switch wasn't hard for me, as my 100 % green tariff costs only negligibly more than the same provider's standard tariff. I guess I could do even more eco-friendly by buying from a provider who doesn't have mixed plans at all, but I preferred to go with a local company.

Now I am facing a dilemma: I've got 16 nm GPUs and 14 nm CPUs, yet more efficient 12 nm GPUs and 7 nm CPUs are available now. When would be a good point for me to modernize? After all, there is not just the running energy consumption, but also the energy and materials that went into the manufacturing of the hardware. Something to research.

--------
*)
Analyzing consumers and manipulating them into consuming even more. Simulation of optimum ways to annihilate all higher life on this planet by nuclear warfare (good; it's greener to simulate this than to perform test detonations). Analysis of seismic probes in the perpetual search for more deposits of ancient algae and trees that we could dig up and burn in a heartbeat.
 
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Kiska

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Apr 4, 2012
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Now I am facing a dilemma: I've got 16 nm GPUs and 14 nm CPUs, yet more efficient 12 nm GPUs and 7 nm CPUs are available now. When would be a good point for me to modernize? After all, there is not just the running energy consumption, but also the energy and materials that went into the manufacturing of the hardware. Something to research.

Well if you decide to modernise, I guess you can sell some of the hardware
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
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I most often buy used, and so at least partially avoid the manufacturing energy conundrum. Of course, strong resale values may make those who buy new more apt to do so, if that is the case, I am not escaping all responsibility.
 

Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
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I've thought about this for some time, but I haven't come up with many real solutions.

I developed PrimeGrid's PPS Sieve thinking it would lead to fewer LLR tests. I'm not sure it's worked out that way. :rolleyes:
If DC is killing the planet, cryptocurrency is kicking, stomping, burning, and then nuking it just to make sure.
And I totally didn't anticipate GridCoin. :eek: At least PG has opted out of that.
Edit: You know what's NOT green? Heating your home during the winter. Just dumb energy consumption. Why not, use electric power for DC work, while at the SAME TIME, HEATING YOUR HOME. That power expended, doesn't go to waste, it goes towards USEFUL COMPUTATIONS, to SOLVE THE WORLD'S BIGGER PROBLEMS.
I have one computer in the basement, so it doesn't contribute to my A/C bill, but it doesn't heat the house either. The problem is, if your electricity comes from gas, or coal, gas heating is more efficient than electric heat - at least by a little. (A lot of heat is wasted at the electricity plant turning heat into electricity.) If your electricity comes from renewable power, you can still be more efficient with an electric heat pump - air or ground-sourced.

Now I am facing a dilemma: I've got 16 nm GPUs and 14 nm CPUs, yet more efficient 12 nm GPUs and 7 nm CPUs are available now. When would be a good point for me to modernize? After all, there is not just the running energy consumption, but also the energy and materials that went into the manufacturing of the hardware. Something to research.
This is my next dilemma too. I also tend not to want to spend money just for DC - my CPUs are good for video compression too, and my GPUs for games and learning CUDA/OpenCL development. But at this point, with the old games I play, my Intel IGP can do most of that. So that's why I've held off getting a new GPU.
 

Ken g6

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Edit: I didn't watch the video, but if DC is somehow inefficient, then "let the market sort it out", with the price of energy and computational hardware / R&D.
I would love for the market to sort it out. But the market doesn't currently price "climate" into the cost of burning fossil carbon. That would require a carbon tax, or something similar.
 
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Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
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In related news, the other use for GPUs is harming the planet. :(


Every year, PC gamers use 75 billion kilowatts hours of electricity—25 power plants’ worth, according to retired Department of Energy Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory scientist Evan Mills.
Cook’s biggest concerns are the manufacturing, use-phase power-suck and impact of the waste (less than 20 percent of electronics are recycled, according to a United Nations University report, which impacts the demand for mined materials like cobalt). Cook cited a recent study claiming that gaming takes up five percent of electricity consumption for residential use.
 

pututu

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Jul 1, 2017
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I underclock and undervolt my CPUs and GPUs and try to run my rigs as efficient as possible. You guys should do the same too (and let us overtake you in the races ;)). Save a lot of electricity cost here in california. BTW, I've solar but a small capacity one and not enough to run all of my rigs.
 
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biodoc

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2005
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I made an attempt to determine how many active DC users there are at this point in time. It's complicated by the fact that Gridcoin (boinc) and Curecoin (F@H) have pools of users with a common username. I used Boincstats and EOC stats to gather the numbers.

# of Boinc userscredits per week
~120,000> 0
10,050> 10,000
2,430>1,000,000

# of Folding@Home userscredits per week
6,731> 0
3,347> 10,000
168> 7,000,000

It seems the active DC community is quite small and the majority of the users are probably just using one computer and probably not crunching 24/7. For example, on Folding@home an RTX 2070 @ 160 watts will do >7 million credits per week so there's only 168 users/pools that are producing at that level and above.

EDIT: So what's my point? DC users are supporting Science and Math projects worldwide. If you are comfortable using power for that purpose then go for it.
 
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