Is Cathlocism Worse Than Islam?

Page 28 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
I had some exposure to Christianity and by the age of 11 had figured out that if you read what Jesus taught and how Christians actually act those are two vastly different things. My guess is that if you are a Christian your understanding of your own religion is as fucked up as your view of Islam and what it teaches.

The following person was a Sufi Muslim teacher whom I heard about some years back. I have quoted him here because of his Islamic roots and because he speaks of a way of looking at the world that I believe does not need a belief in God to understand, but which when understood will produce a mind at peace that will make you like a believer.

M. R. Bawa Muhaiyaddeen: When the rain falls, all the rainwater flows toward the sea. Some of the water may collect in ponds or lakes. As more rainwater continues to flow into these ponds, it pushes out the water already there, and the new water remains in its place. The water that was there earlier is very happy as it makes good its escape, saying, “I am free! I have escaped from the stench and the dirt. How much I had to suffer! Dogs’ urine, jackals’ urine, cows’ urine-I had to endure so much filth and smell! Now I am free from all that!” So saying, the pond water runs toward the vast ocean.

On the other hand, the dry earth feels very happy and comforted as it soaks up the rainwater. It goes on drinking and drinking that water, until finally, when it cannot drink any more, it turns into muddy sludge, filled with decaying leaves and debris. Earlier, people could lie on that earth, cows and goats could sleep on it, but now no one can even walk on it. Its beauty is gone.

And what of the fresh rainwater that displaced the stagnant water in the pond? Worms, insects, reptiles, and odors will come into that water all too soon, and it too will lose its beauty and take on a stench. This fresh water that helped the old water to escape from its suffering, soon will suffer the same fate-to become stagnant, dirty, and smelly. When it was on its way, it was joyful in anticipation, and when it first arrived it was still happy. But as it experiences being in the pond, it will begin to understand the difficulty and suffering that goes with it.

There is a Tamil story about a quarrel between two sisters-Moodevi and Seedevi. One represents right, the other represents wrong. Now, both right and wrong must exist in this world. Darkness and light are also necessary. But even though darkness and light both have to exist in the world, neither one need suffer or cause pain to the other.

These two sisters, Moodevi and Seedevi, were involved in a violent argument as to who was greater. “I am the elder, so I am greater,” said Moodevi. So, one day the two went to the Qutbiyyat (RAL.) who asked them, “What is the argument about? Why are you fighting?” Moodevi said, “Am I not prettier than my sister? To all the world, I am the elder. After all, I am the one connected to karma, creation, and everything. So I am more beautiful, am I not?”

Now, since ignorance comes before wisdom, it is older. And since wisdom develops later, it is younger. In the same way, karma and arrogance are there before goodness develops.

The Qutbiyyat (RAL.) then looked at the two and saw that they were different. And yet he had to give an answer that would not hurt either one. So he said, “Both of you are beautiful, but in order to decide between you, I need to observe you coming and going. Please walk over that way.” After they walked a short distance away from him, he asked them to turn around and come toward him. Then he told Moodevi (the elder), “You look beautiful when you are going, and you, Seedevi, look beautiful when you are coming.” So both went away happy, shaking their hips. The meaning of this story is that it is beautiful when ignorance leaves us, and it is beautiful when wisdom and truth come to us.

Similarly, in the world, good and bad do come and go. But when our older quality of ignorance leaves us, it is both good for us and beautiful. And when truth and God’s qualities come to us, it is truly beautiful. There need be no pain to either. Without hurting the older one (ignorance), you must tell it to go away from you. And without causing any pain to the younger one (wisdom), you must invite it to come to you. If you can be like this, if you can treat each one appropriately, you will be at peace.

So, whenever trouble comes toward you, you should say, “I surrender to the will of God (tawakkul-‘alallah).” Then it will not stay. It will go away. And when no trouble befalls you, when things are fine, you should still hand it over to God, saying, “All praise be to God (al-hamdu lillah).” Then there will be no need to hold on to either. Neither will stay. Let them come and go. Once the older one goes and the younger comes, only one will be there, and there will be no fighting. Not two, only one. In that state, only God is there. The ‘I’ is gone. Karma is gone. Arrogance is gone. Illusion (maya) is gone. If nothing is retained, then That will come. Once That comes, there will be no suffering, no sadness, no ‘I’, no differences. Only That will remain. Nothing else. That is how you have to be. If you can understand this state, there will be no bundles to tie up, no burdens to carry along, nothing to hold on to inside, nothing to show. Only That will remain.

1. Moodevi is said to be the goddess of misfortune, bringing bad luck, poverty, sickness, unhappiness, and depression. Seedevi is the goddess of fortune, bringing happiness, wealth, and health to the house where she chooses to stay.

2. Qutbiyyat (ral.) (A) Divine analytic wisdom, the sixth level of consciousness, which explains the truth of God; Qutb is also a title used for the great holy men of Islam.
So you didn't want to address the verse Koran 5:33 that discusses murder of infidels. Got it. Nor Muhammad's life (easily found on wiki), got it. I could cut n paste Biblical parables all day that I find amusing. When you are living life where every second is important and many people (co-biz owners, day job coworkers, family members), idle hands aren't your friends. I like going on here to blow off some steam and discuss politics and religion but honestly would need a good half hour to digest the parables that you wrote.

What you just wrote was very nice and I appreciate it, but I'm not aspiring to be a transcendental person anytime soon. If I did, I'd probably study Buddhism which teaches similar tenets about emotional control, present state, and third eye metaphysics. Not really my cup of tea atm when you have as many responsibilities as I do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: whm1974
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
So you didn't want to address the verse Koran 5:33 that discusses murder of infidels. Got it. Nor Muhammad's life (easily found on wiki), got it. I could cut n paste Biblical parables all day that I find amusing. When you are living life where every second is important and many people (co-biz owners, day job coworkers, family members), idle hands aren't your friends. I like going on here to blow off some steam and discuss politics and religion but honestly would need a good half hour to digest the parables that you wrote.

What you just wrote was very nice and I appreciate it, but I'm not aspiring to be a transcendental person anytime soon. If I did, I'd probably study Buddhism which teaches similar tenets about emotional control, present state, and third eye metaphysics. Not really my cup of tea atm when you have as many responsibilities as I do.

Yes, so much trolling to do and so little time.
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
Quran 5:33- “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”.
So whatever you define as "mischief" gives you full authority to go murder someone. Does this sound like the religion of peace? Why doesn't this verse discuss talking it out with words of peace like your verse instructs them to do? That's another problem with the Koran, inconsistency and contradictions like this.

I am going to respond in a bit detail, with the assumption that you are sincere in your enquiry.

Mischief is kind of a misleading translation for the Arabic word 'fitnah'. That is the big problem with translations. Every language has its own feel, vocabulary etc which can never be properly translated. So fitnah in a broad sense means wrong doing, causing harm, causing injustice.

Also the verses about slaying of infidels are in specific contexts of the battles that were going on at that time e.g. a verse used often by Islamophobes - slay them wherever you find them. On the face of it it sounds very cruel but when you understand the context, it is not quite so. The explanation of Koran (called tafseer) is an entire field of study, requiring a complete command of Classical Arabic and many other topics. In fact the scholars go beyond and find where did the root word come from. Arabic is based on 3 letter root words - which are always verbs. I believe Hebrew is the same. Every other word is derived from a root word - the nouns, adjectives, and so on.

There is much more that can be said on this topic if you are interested. Hope this helped
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
I am going to respond in a bit detail, with the assumption that you are sincere in your enquiry.

Mischief is kind of a misleading translation for the Arabic word 'fitnah'. That is the big problem with translations. Every language has its own feel, vocabulary etc which can never be properly translated. So fitnah in a broad sense means wrong doing, causing harm, causing injustice.

Also the verses about slaying of infidels are in specific contexts of the battles that were going on at that time e.g. a verse used often by Islamophobes - slay them wherever you find them. On the face of it it sounds very cruel but when you understand the context, it is not quite so. The explanation of Koran (called tafseer) is an entire field of study, requiring a complete command of Classical Arabic and many other topics. In fact the scholars go beyond and find where did the root word come from. Arabic is based on 3 letter root words - which are always verbs. I believe Hebrew is the same. Every other word is derived from a root word - the nouns, adjectives, and so on.

There is much more that can be said on this topic if you are interested. Hope this helped
Yeah I get it, Biblical scholars do the same thing. They tell us 1 word could mean 10 and then pick the one that best fits their agenda. What I'm trying to say is that I disagree that things can never be properly translated, it can only be one of a few options. Your definitions of fitnah are vastly different here - "mischief, wrongdoing, causing harm, and causing injustice". So this basically means that according to the Muslim's temperment, they can translate the word to mean whatever they want, right? That's my problem with the text. Also "causing harm" is also subjective - harm can be physical, mental, fiscal, etc. An angry and violent Muslim could say in his head, it means mischief, and I think that he caused mischief! Another can say that a draw Muhammad conference is "wrongdoing to Islam" so they get their guns. So on and so forth, you see the point?

Modern Muslims need to clarify that it's not something broad like "mischief". So my main beef with modern islam is that they are saying these texts can never be altered or changed. Ok fine, at least issue a clarification from the head imam that the violent passage are not violent, even if they are. Change the definition and take away any excuses for them to kill.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,430
6,088
126
So you didn't want to address the verse Koran 5:33 that discusses murder of infidels. Got it. Nor Muhammad's life (easily found on wiki), got it. I could cut n paste Biblical parables all day that I find amusing. When you are living life where every second is important and many people (co-biz owners, day job coworkers, family members), idle hands aren't your friends. I like going on here to blow off some steam and discuss politics and religion but honestly would need a good half hour to digest the parables that you wrote.

What you just wrote was very nice and I appreciate it, but I'm not aspiring to be a transcendental person anytime soon. If I did, I'd probably study Buddhism which teaches similar tenets about emotional control, present state, and third eye metaphysics. Not really my cup of tea atm when you have as many responsibilities as I do.
Like you I have my preferences as to what to devote time to and I find all kinds of things that Holy Books say to be both incomprehensible and savage, but I have found many religious people to be decent human beings. And since my general point of view is that people are full of propagandized bull shit including warring about religious texts, I ignore requests to examine verse this or that. I think even the greatest experts on such things would disagree with each other. I ignore it because to me it is a perfect way to bling yourself with the assumption you understand something when in fact you have no idea. This is apparently what Muslims believe:

Basic articles of faith

Muslims have six main beliefs.

  • Belief in Allah as the one and only God
  • Belief in angels
  • Belief in the holy books
  • Belief in the Prophets...
    • e.g. Adam, Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), Dawud (David), Isa (Jesus).
    • Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the final prophet.
  • Belief in the Day of Judgement...
    • The day when the life of every human being will be assessed to decide whether they go to heaven or hell.
  • Belief in Predestination...
    • That Allah has the knowlege of all that will happen.
    • Muslims believe that this doesn't stop human beings making free choices.
Allah
Allah is the name Muslims use for the supreme and unique God, who created and rules everything.

The heart of faith for all Muslims is obedience to Allah's will.

  • Allah is eternal, omniscient, and omnipotent...
    • Allah has always existed and will always exist.
    • Allah knows everything that can be known.
    • Allah can do anything that can be done.
  • Allah has no shape or form...
    • Allah can't be seen.
    • Allah can't be heard.
    • Allah is neither male nor female.
  • Allah is just...
    • Allah rewards and punishes fairly.
    • But Allah is also merciful.
  • A believer can approach Allah by praying, and by reciting the Qur'an.
  • Muslims worship only Allah...
    • because only Allah is worthy of worship.
The one and only God
All Muslims believe that God is one alone:

  • There is only one God.
  • God has no children, no parents, and no partners.
  • God was not created by a being.
  • There are no equal, superior, or lesser Gods.
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
Yeah I get it, Biblical scholars do the same thing. They tell us 1 word could mean 10 and then pick the one that best fits their agenda. What I'm trying to say is that I disagree that things can never be properly translated, it can only be one of a few options. Your definitions of fitnah are vastly different here - "mischief, wrongdoing, causing harm, and causing injustice". So this basically means that according to the Muslim's temperment, they can translate the word to mean whatever they want, right? That's my problem with the text. Also "causing harm" is also subjective - harm can be physical, mental, fiscal, etc. An angry and violent Muslim could say in his head, it means mischief, and I think that he caused mischief! Another can say that a draw Muhammad conference is "wrongdoing to Islam" so they get their guns. So on and so forth, you see the point?

Yes I see your point. People can and do and have done anything they want in the name of Muhammad, Allah, Jesus, what have you. Or in the name of secular ideologies. They will always find some inner justification for what they want to do. That is human nature.

In case of Islamic teachings, vigilante justice is not permitted. So for example if something is considered offensive to Islam, it is not for the individual to take up arms. It is for the state to decide.

Modern Muslims need to clarify that it's not something broad like "mischief". So my main beef with modern islam is that they are saying these texts can never be altered or changed. Ok fine, at least issue a clarification from the head imam that the violent passage are not violent, even if they are. Change the definition and take away any excuses for them to kill.

Like I said, people will always find an excuse. It is not possible to "take it away" as you said.

To answer the broader point, it is a fact that these extremists have literally no support from any Islamic scholar of any repute. All the leading Islamic scholars have repeatedly condemned these acts, and some have paid with their life for it. These extremists have no qualifications as scholars. These groups have their "self-taught" religious scholars, who do not have the kind of knowledge of Islamic theology and jurisprudence that is needed to be a proper scholar. It is like someone putting a Dr. in front of their name themselves declaring they have a PhD.
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
What you just wrote was very nice and I appreciate it, but I'm not aspiring to be a transcendental person anytime soon. If I did, I'd probably study Buddhism which teaches similar tenets about emotional control, present state, and third eye metaphysics. Not really my cup of tea atm when you have as many responsibilities as I do.

There isn't a whole lot to learn actually. We humans have this tendency to turn everything into an intellectual and knowledge based thing. While knowledge is definitely important, even essential, when it comes down to all the spiritual traditions, there is something far deeper than knowledge.
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
1,570
96
There isn't a whole lot to learn actually. We humans have this tendency to turn everything into an intellectual and knowledge based thing. While knowledge is definitely important, even essential, when it comes down to all the spiritual traditions, there is something far deeper than knowledge.
What can be deeper then actual knowledge? Meaning and purpose? Well we humans alone decide what that is and give each other both of them as well.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,029
4,798
136
Yes I see your point. People can and do and have done anything they want in the name of Muhammad, Allah, Jesus, what have you. Or in the name of secular ideologies. They will always find some inner justification for what they want to do. That is human nature.
If people who claim to be a Christian obeyed the word then they would be peaceable with all men period.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ch33zw1z

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
What can be deeper then actual knowledge?

I don't know. It seems to me that people with lots of knowledge and brain power are the ones who have always caused so much suffering in the world, both at personal and public level.

If people who claim to be a Christian obeyed the word then they would be peaceable with all men period.

Mostly yes - though there is the Old Testament too. But really, American Christianity is almost a contradiction in terms. It is a deeply spiritual and beautiful religion, but here in this country it has been turned to something else entirely. That is why the future of Christianity - or whatever is left of it in an increasingly secular world - is in other places like Latin America
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
2,000
126
If people who claim to be a Christian obeyed the word then they would be peaceable with all men period.

WTF word are you talking about? If people who claimed to be Christian actually obeyed the laws set down by the big book of fairy tales every one of them would be dead or in jail.
 
  • Like
Reactions: whm1974

inachu

Platinum Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,387
2
41
It does make me wonder if an organisation that protects pedophiles. Will attract pedophiles. Surely it was known within the pedophile community that if you became a catholic priest then you can touch up little boys with impunity.

The church has shown a pattern around the world of trying to ignore the child sex abuse. Which results in the victims having their lives destroyed at a very young age and it also enables further abuse. The German pope before Francis who stepped down due to "health reasons"* was accused of doing just that in Germany.

He kept moving a notorious pedophile priest around the German countryside. The police call those enablers or non-contact pedophiles.

It must be very hard to deal with this as a Catholic. It is now well established that the church will ignore and effectively facilitate the sexual assault of children. As a catholic what can you do? You have to defend pedophiles. The church is asking the Catholic community to pay for Pell's legal fees.

*There are also rumours that benedict only touched up 4892 little boys before being elected pope.


It is the goal for all churches to be made corrupt and sent back under the wing of the synagogue.
The group of people ordered to do this are the Jesuits.

Once back under Israeli control and the third temple is built then the false messiah will arrive.
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
1,570
96
WTF word are you talking about? If people who claimed to be Christian actually obeyed the laws set down by the big book of fairy tales every one of them would be dead or in jail.
Makes me wonder if most of the old Israelis actually followed the Mosaic Laws in the first place?
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
2,000
126
Makes me wonder if most of the old Israelis actually followed the Mosaic Laws in the first place?

Hell no. There has never been a time of place where a person could do what the old testament commands and get away with it. Even in the most vile, violent societies ever to stain the Earth attempting to follow the bible would mark a person as a criminal psychopath.
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
Hell no. There has never been a time of place where a person could do what the old testament commands and get away with it. Even in the most vile, violent societies ever to stain the Earth attempting to follow the bible would mark a person as a criminal psychopath.

The Old Testament is really out there in some ways. Perhaps in some ways it is meant symbolically not literally. This is where I think Islam is more realistic and practical. I personally don't have issues with what some may consider some harsh things in the Islamic legal system. Harsh is of course a subjective term and people only think from their modern sensibilities - with the underlying assumption that it is valid. Not realizing what they currently are fine with, people at a certain time will consider harsh. And so on and so forth.
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
1,570
96
The Old Testament is really out there in some ways. Perhaps in some ways it is meant symbolically not literally. This is where I think Islam is more realistic and practical. I personally don't have issues with what some may consider some harsh things in the Islamic legal system. Harsh is of course a subjective term and people only think from their modern sensibilities - with the underlying assumption that it is valid. Not realizing what they currently are fine with, people at a certain time will consider harsh. And so on and so forth.
*SNORT!!!* Personally I think you are full of shit. You cannot see what is wrong with the "holy texts" of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, then you are morally blind.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GagHalfrunt

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
*SNORT!!!* Personally I think you are full of shit. You cannot see what is wrong with the "holy texts" of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, then you are morally blind.

Yeah I could be. But I think you are missing the forest for the trees
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
2,000
126
The Old Testament is really out there in some ways. Perhaps in some ways it is meant symbolically not literally. This is where I think Islam is more realistic and practical. I personally don't have issues with what some may consider some harsh things in the Islamic legal system. Harsh is of course a subjective term and people only think from their modern sensibilities - with the underlying assumption that it is valid. Not realizing what they currently are fine with, people at a certain time will consider harsh. And so on and so forth.

And that's the problem with every religion and every pathetic wannabeliever with their delusion-addled head so far up their ass they have no concept of where reality begins. NONE of those idiotic fairy tales is believable or workable in the real world. For every sentence of touchy-feely crap like "love thy neighbor" or "turn the other cheek" there are 100 others that mandate mass murder, slavery, mutilation, torture and other atrocities. So everyone too stupid to understand what a giant load of shit it ALL is adopts that "it is meant symbolically not literally...." cop out. That's how we wound up with 1 billion people who *CLAIM* to be Jesus-freaks and a billion more who *CLAIM* to be Islamic doing whatever the fuck they want to do, using passages from a book of fairy tales to justify their crimes and ignoring anything they find inconvenient.

Be honest: If you walked down the street and there was somebody standing on a street corner screaming about the murders the voices in his head want you to commit on his behalf, the atrocities the voice said will please him, the riches the voice demands you to gather and turn over to him, would you listen? My guess is you'd run away, call the authorities and report a dangerous, possibly violent schizophrenic who needed help before he hurt somebody. But if that person existed 2000 years ago in the middle east you'd call him a prophet and you'd be living by what the voices in his head said.

It's not meant to be taken symbolically in some ways, it's meant to be ignored in every way because every word of is is the ranting of a psychopath or the pitch of a con-artist that wants your money.
 
  • Like
Reactions: whm1974

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,430
6,088
126
And that's the problem with every religion and every pathetic wannabeliever with their delusion-addled head so far up their ass they have no concept of where reality begins. NONE of those idiotic fairy tales is believable or workable in the real world. For every sentence of touchy-feely crap like "love thy neighbor" or "turn the other cheek" there are 100 others that mandate mass murder, slavery, mutilation, torture and other atrocities. So everyone too stupid to understand what a giant load of shit it ALL is adopts that "it is meant symbolically not literally...." cop out. That's how we wound up with 1 billion people who *CLAIM* to be Jesus-freaks and a billion more who *CLAIM* to be Islamic doing whatever the fuck they want to do, using passages from a book of fairy tales to justify their crimes and ignoring anything they find inconvenient.

Be honest: If you walked down the street and there was somebody standing on a street corner screaming about the murders the voices in his head want you to commit on his behalf, the atrocities the voice said will please him, the riches the voice demands you to gather and turn over to him, would you listen? My guess is you'd run away, call the authorities and report a dangerous, possibly violent schizophrenic who needed help before he hurt somebody. But if that person existed 2000 years ago in the middle east you'd call him a prophet and you'd be living by what the voices in his head said.

It's not meant to be taken symbolically in some ways, it's meant to be ignored in every way because every word of is is the ranting of a psychopath or the pitch of a con-artist that wants your money.
Thank you for this emotionless and rational expose of religious pathology. I think you have made it very clear why I should fear it. Now I will be able to address the danger it represents with no fear it will challenge my sanity.

You remind me of a film about the life of a baseball player that was taken off the field in a straight jacket having snapped. Somebody said it was caused by being put under too much pressure by his father, to which he replied, “I wouldn’t be where I am today if it weren’t for my father.”
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,029
4,798
136
*SNORT!!!* Personally I think you are full of shit. You cannot see what is wrong with the "holy texts" of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, then you are morally blind.
While I agree with you that the Old Testament law is batsh!t crazy all people had to do was sacrifice livestock once each year to atone for their sins. Under the New Testament Christ is the fulfillment of the law so those who accept his free gift of salvation are free from the law.

However, they are supposed to follow Jesus's teachings which are based on love and respect for others which the modern church rejects.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
If people who claim to be a Christian obeyed the word then they would be peaceable with all men period.
I agree with this. Yet the bible says to continuously be working on yourself, most will never get to the levels of kindness that Jesus exuded b/c of a combination that it's hard for people to change and sin is continually assaulting us.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,929
142
106
*SNORT!!!* Personally I think you are full of shit. You cannot see what is wrong with the "holy texts" of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, then you are morally blind.
I would say that regarding the Bible there are major issues with the Old Covenant, however most christians abide by the New Covenant and jesus' teachings/New Testament. The OT has its purpose, however, which acts a historical account of not to piss God off.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,029
4,798
136
I agree with this. Yet the bible says to continuously be working on yourself, most will never get to the levels of kindness that Jesus exuded b/c of a combination that it's hard for people to change and sin is continually assaulting us.
I know that I will never be able to attain those levels of kindness, however, I do unto others as I would have them do unto me.