Is being a war hero important to voters these days?

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May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: BoberFett
McCain was POW for chrissake, but that apparently doesn't deter him from saying stupid things like not caring if we're in Iraq for 100 years. Either he's a liar or a fool, neither of which is a good quality for a president. We've had both for the past 7 years and look where it's gotten us.

And I respect McCain for his great service to this country. He's a War Hero, no qualms about it.

But his brand of politics ... no thanks.

How to hell can you prefer Obama over McCain if McCain is predicted to be able to unite both sides like Obama is?

What exactly is your problem with McCain?

He's courted neo-cons, fundamentalist evangelicals, and specifically Bush. Anyone willing to bed with ANY of those is no friend of mine.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I would prefer military service, since the president is commander in chief. I don't want someone ordering a war that doesn't really know what that means personally.

If not military service then I'd at least like some type of civil service with demonstrated willingness to listen to others who have knowledge that the candidate doesn't have (in this case military experience).

McCain was POW for chrissake, but that apparently doesn't deter him from saying stupid things like not caring if we're in Iraq for 100 years. Either he's a liar or a fool, neither of which is a good quality for a president. We've had both for the past 7 years and look where it's gotten us.

I never said I'd prefer McCain over someone else. I said given the option I'd prefer someone with military service to someone without. It's not the deciding factor, just a preference.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
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Originally posted by: Skitzer
Originally posted by: conehead433
I don't think being repeatedly shot down and being a POW makes you a war hero.

Wow ..... am I reading this right?
Just exactly what meets your requirements for a war hero?

probably the stereotypical image of a man who took down an entire platoon of soldiers by himself, many with his bare hands. :roll:
those men too are definitely war heroes, but far from the only servicemen who can be classified as war heroes.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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I don't know everything there is to know about McCain. This is how I see the issues:

1. If McCain was for the war was it because he believes in PNAC or because he thought there was a WMD threat. If the former, he's an idiot, but if the latter, I can accept it.

2. I have never felt, once we were in the Idiots War, that we could ethically just pull out and let Iraq degenerate into a mass killing ground of civil and religious war. That would be a horrible way to compound a mistake. But I don't know if we can prevent that from happening anyway. So I don't know if McCain is right or wrong, but I hope he's right. It would be too big a historical crime, in my opinion, to leave without trying. Events have gone well enough, in my opinion, that the approach many Democratic want, just to pull our, may actually be a bad idea and cost them at the poles.

So I'm not an absolutist against McCain, at least not yet.
 

daveymark

Lifer
Sep 15, 2003
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Originally posted by: Skitzer
Originally posted by: conehead433
I don't think being repeatedly shot down and being a POW makes you a war hero.

Wow ..... am I reading this right?
Just exactly what meets your requirements for a war hero?

rambo
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
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While I admire McCain's captive spirit during his imprisonment in Hanoi, and there's something to be said of an admirals son going out to get shot at in general, I don't consider him a hero as he hasn't fulfilled the classic requirement for that title - to save someone else's neck, sometimes at the expense of your own. I agree the definition will vary greatly from person to person, but I also think that it's thrown around far too much. You shouldn't be a hero because you got into a car accident, for instance.


Anyway, no, I don't feel it's important these days, as evidenced by the chickenhawk GWB winning the 2004 election - He defeated someone who actually had the stones to face the enemy. People can say whatever they want about Kerry, but none of it changes that he still went back into oncoming fire to save a comrade. Ol' AWOL Bush sold himself to the public as maybe nothing glamorous, but certainly honorable and valid - while Kerry got Swiftboated.

I think that speaks volumes about how roughly 30% of Americans feel about military service from president-elects.




I won't address the issue of if military service should be a prerequisite for the presidency. Let's start off small - how about a minimum IQ?




 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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Is being a war hero important to voters these days?

Personally I think so, but not as much as times past.

At one time it was basically a necessity to have served. This was before the Baby-Boomers (i.e., Clinton etc) came to power. Before then everybody was from the WWII time-frame. If you were of that era and didn't serve, you were unusual.

Because of lingering national feelings about Vietnam, I don't think the majority of voters wanted to make that a litmus test for the office of the Presidency like service in WWII was.

But even today I think a good record of military service is helpful. How helpful? Well, IMO that depends upon the issues facing the country. If, as in Bill Clinton's time, there are no military threats, then not so helpful.

ATM, the economy seems more important and that can't be helping McCain. I think that's at least partially why he's gone sooo negative against Romney. IMO, he's pushing it with the negative ads.

Fern
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
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Originally posted by: kage69
While I admire McCain's captive spirit during his imprisonment in Hanoi, and there's something to be said of an admirals son going out to get shot at in general, I don't consider him a hero as he hasn't fulfilled the classic requirement for that title - to save someone else's neck, sometimes at the expense of your own. I agree the definition will vary greatly from person to person, but I also think that it's thrown around far too much. You shouldn't be a hero because you got into a car accident, for instance.

I suggest you rent and watch The Hanoi Hilton..

The amount of disrespect shown to POWs in this thread is absolutely staggering.
Some of the things said here are literally making me shake my head in disgust.
Seriosuly, before anyone makes anymore ignorant statements about POWs, the Vietnam war, or torture, please go learn about them.

You would understand why McCain is so anti-torture if you watched the video above and learned what the Vietnamese did to our soldiers, sailors, and airmen. There's a reason the world at large has condemned us for running Guantanamo.

You could easily make the argument that by volunteering to join the military during a war that he saved some poor son of a b's draft number from coming up.

Argue McCain's political positions all you want, the man is a war hero. That is absolutely not up for discussion.



 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: shortylickens

As an example, find any sailor you can (a real sailor, not some pussy from the coast guard) and ask him what the function of the Navy is.
Very few of them will be able to tell you "To conduct prompt and sustained combat operations at sea".
Do not knock the Coasties.

Remember they have to go out and collect the idiots in bad weather.

The search & rescue is much different than the inland patrols.

Very vessels that the Blue Water Navy meets up will open fire on them.
Not so with the Coast Guard drug interdiction vessels.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
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Seen it, as well as a few other programs concerning the topic. You really should try to avoid assuming what other people know about this - you don't even know my name, yet you can surmise my fluency in the subject based on a few lines of text? I'm a history buff, and I'll leave it at that.

Now, I suggest you re-read my initial
I agree the definition will vary greatly from person to person, but I also think that it's thrown around far too much.

Argue McCain's political positions all you want, the man is a war hero. That is absolutely not up for discussion.


Please, speak your mind, but save your etched-in-stone proclamations for someone who gives a damn. If the discussion doesn't align itself with some standard of yours, fine, whatever, no one is forcing you to be involved. But you are cordially invited to STFU if you're gonna waltz in and decree something as "absolutely not up for discussion."

I see a problem with someone like McCain, who used to be the text book example for the term "intestinal fortitude", roll over like he did for guys who aren't fit to lick-shine his boots. That's not the behavior I associate with real heros, and politics doesn't enter into the issue of personal integrity and honor. Sorry.

It should be mentioned though, that I consider McCain a worthy leader. The main overrall theme that drives me fuckin batsh!t is to hear types like Bush and Cheney talk down to and lecture those who actually faced the enemy, the same war-supporting guys who pulled strings in order to maintain their lifestyle of nepotism or pursuits like failing out of school. I think the country, and definitely the military, is better served by a CiC who knows firsthand the consequences and costs of war.
McCain, at his worst, is still a thousand times better than the Cheney/Bush duo of disgust at their best.



 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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How is McCain a War hero?

Did he save a lot of men from dying?

Did he win a major battle?

NO.

He got shot down and thrown in prison. He is just like other pilots or soldiers. No better and no worse. This does not make you special, this just means he got shot down because he was a lousy Pilot. Maybe he was and maybe he was not. I dont know and I dont care. War does funny things to people.

He is part of the problem in Washington, and he is the kind of person voting on spending and wasting our money.

Last thing I want in office is another war monger who is soft on immigration. May as well just keep Bush in office.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
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Originally posted by: piasabird
How is McCain a War hero?

Did he save a lot of men from dying?

Did he win a major battle?

NO.

He got shot down and thrown in prison. He is just like other pilots or soldiers. No better and no worse. This does not make you special, this just means he got shot down because he was a lousy Pilot. Maybe he was and maybe he was not. I dont know and I dont care. War does funny things to people.

He is part of the problem in Washington, and he is the kind of person voting on spending and wasting our money.

Last thing I want in office is another war monger who is soft on immigration. May as well just keep Bush in office.

He got shot down because he is a bad pilot? From what experience do you have the ability to judge him as a pilot.

He isn't a hero because he didn't win a major battle, or save a lot of men from dying? Are you that ignorant to make that proclamation. Do you know any single man who has won a major battle on his own? This is real life, not some Hollywood flic.

Once again, before you spew off uninformed nonsense, educate yourself on some of the facts of Vietnam. Such as the one below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanoi_Hilton

Maybe you would have liked to have joined Jane Fonda on her vacation there?

Here's the top definition of hero, from dictionary.com:

he-ro:
1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.

All POWs are heroes. McCain has tremendous personal courage. He was beaten nearly to death, and nursed back to health by two other POWs. He was tortured for nearly five years. He underwent horrors that you and I can hardly imagine. The reason he cannot lift his arms over his head is not because he is old, it's because the Vietnamese tortured him so badly he had permanent damage done to his shoulders.

He, and the other POWs, underwent brutal conditions but resisted every step of the way to the maximum of their ability.

Those men and women have undergone absolutely terrible things for this country, and you dare to spit on or slander them with words? Get a clue.

That doesn't mean every action he undergoes, or decision he makes, or things he says, is heroic. He volunteered to join the Navy, he underwent rigourous training, and he, like hundreds of Americans during Vietnam, was shot down. He was captured and nearly killed. He came back and instead of being a victim, he became a U.S. Senator. He is obviously a man of tremendous personal courage. He is a hero.

We all have to make real-life decisions. If McCain wants to actually have a shot at president, he is going to have to do things he doesn't agree with. Every single candidate does that, so get over yourself Kage.

I'm sorry, but perhaps you've been delusioned by the comic books to much to recognize a real hero when you see one.

I don't agree with him on 95% of political issues, but knock off the Swift-boating bullshit that you've been spoon fed and gobble up like a mindless turkey.

Seriously, the two of you make me sick. This is why military service should be mandatory, so you guys would have a damn clue.


 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: Carmen813
This is why military service should be mandatory, so you guys would have a damn clue.

:roll:

His status as a "hero" is immaterial. His treatment in Vietnam in no way qualifies him to be president. Hell, I don't think it qualifies him to be a senator.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
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Seriously, the two of you make me sick.


Seriously, either quote something of mine you take issue with (and allow me to either refute or clarify) or stop attributing the sentiments of others to my words. I'm not the one calling him a warmonger, or trying to invalidate his service, I only articulated why I don't personally consider him a "hero." Get a grip - you're coming across as dyslexic brat.

Help me out with that clue - where have I dared spit or slandered his name? Take your time...

McCain turning into a political opportunist is hardly the minor issue you're attempting to make it sound like, and I know a number vets who feel the same way. Not sure what you mean regarding the Swiftboating; Kerry got screwed by dishonest vets shilling themselves for political interests, you're actually contesting that?


For someone so confident in their position, you sure rely on a lot of pathetic assumptions and ad homs. So please, learn how to address the topic in a mature fashion and then we can talk, till then I'm not going to waste anymore time or bandwidth on someone with such an obvious chip on their shoulder.

Good luck! ;)

 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
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Originally posted by: destrekor
Originally posted by: bamacre
Are Paul and McCain the only two left that have worn the uniform?

Nevertheless, you would think someone who has put on the uniform would use the military responsibly, and McCain gets a fat :thumbsdown: in this regard.

responsibly? How is his brand of military handling irresponsible? Clearly you don't understand the logistics of war, and neither do any of the damned congressman who veto nearly everything to do with it. We would be done if every funding and increased presence bills had been passed. Sadly, their lack of understand of how an efficient war is fought is clearly to blame.

Think of it like this. More troops and proper funding to cover everything necessary over there, means a LOT more friendly presence, which means it's more likely all the enemies will be rooted out of the towns. With a stronger presence, those checkpoints could be a lot more efficient and catch more problems. Clear them out of the inner city neighborhoods, set up a strong checkpoint - that won't let things get by unnoticed - which forms a perimeter around the entire inner city. Spread out and continue to enlarge that perimeter until each village and city is cleared, then move to the outlying areas and make it so the war is fought in the desert. We are much more efficient across large terrain, and our armor and other mechanized forces proved during Desert Shield and Desert Storm.

Urban combat is a different ball game than desert combat, for sure. That fact is highlighted in this conflict due to the nature of the enemy.

Your Chief, Commander Codpiece, determines troop strength and ignored the troop strength projections provided by his own military before entering Iraq ....

The only advantage I see to a military background for a president would be their understanding of the division of authority in the chain of command. It still wouldn't stop rouge dumb arses like Wolfie, Rums-failed, Darth Cheney, et al ...
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
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Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
How to hell can you prefer Obama over McCain if McCain is predicted to be able to unite both sides like Obama is?

What exactly is your problem with McCain?

Let's see.

McCain-Kennedy
McCain-Feingold

Twice voted against Bush tax cuts, ostensibly out of principle, yet then proceeded to vote to extend the same tax cuts he voted against.

He's also off on the global warming tangent now.

In other words, McCain is a liberal. He's no true Conservative. The difference is, Obama makes no secret where he stands politically. McCain is pretending.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
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Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
How to hell can you prefer Obama over McCain if McCain is predicted to be able to unite both sides like Obama is?

What exactly is your problem with McCain?

Let's see.

McCain-Kennedy
McCain-Feingold

Twice voted against Bush tax cuts, ostensibly out of principle, yet then proceeded to vote to extend the same tax cuts he voted against.

He's also off on the global warming tangent now.

In other words, McCain is a liberal. He's no true Conservative. The difference is, Obama makes no secret where he stands politically. McCain is pretending.

Aren't you (not You, but in general) a little tired of seeing just about every Republican picked apart such that none is really a conservative? Huckabee had liberal tax policies and has therefore been called liberal, even tho he's anti gay and pro life, pro religion. McCain had immigrant amnesty and voted against tax cuts so he's "not a conservative" though he otherwise is in favor of fiscal responsibility, he's pro-life, anti gay marriage and he's mega-pro-war. Romney used to be pro-choice and pro-gay rights so he couldn't be conservative either, tho he now supports constitutional amendments going the other way. Bush also wasn't tuff enough on immigrants, and he spends too much and sends US armies over seas to expand the empire so he's not conservative. Is there a group of issues that someone has to follow or they're out of the club?

Same thing with the Dems, except the current crop of candidates are pretty much policy clones of each other, but Hillary has been called a closeted republican, etc.

It's similar to saying someone isn't jewish if they aren't kosher and don't go to temple on saturday, or claiming someone isn't a vegetarian if they also eat fish. If a person adheres 100% to their party platform, they aren't conservative or liberal, they're braindead. Claiming people don't belong in a club is pretty dumb considering we all have positions all over the map.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
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didn't McCain have the option to get out of jail free, but refused unless they were going to let his fellow POW's go home as well?

sounds pretty heroic to me.
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
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fobot.com
Originally posted by: sirjonk
It's similar to saying someone isn't jewish if they aren't kosher and don't go to temple on saturday, or claiming someone isn't a vegetarian if they also eat fish. If a person adheres 100% to their party platform, they aren't conservative or liberal, they're braindead. Claiming people don't belong in a club is pretty dumb considering we all have positions all over the map.

or saying someone isn't christian because they believe X, Y and Z, yet they believe "Through the Atonement?performed by Jesus Christ with His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and by His suffering and the voluntary surrender of His life on the cross?He saves you from your sins as you sincerely repent and follow Him."

it is part of the political game, the way it works
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
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It's similar to saying someone isn't jewish if they aren't kosher and don't go to temple on saturday, or claiming someone isn't a vegetarian if they also eat fish. If a person adheres 100% to their party platform, they aren't conservative or liberal, they're braindead. Claiming people don't belong in a club is pretty dumb considering we all have positions all over the map.



A great point, which works on so many levels... 'grats jonk. :thumbsup: