Is Backing Up Your DVDs Illegal?

[Kenji4861]

We got into an interesting discussion today in my class.

A student did a presentation on how to backup dvds and during question time, it became an argument of if it's illegal to backup dvds. I thought it was ok to make 1 backup for archival purposes just like software (title 17). But a student said that it's illegal to make backup of DVD for any reason and that ended the argument.

 

[amnesiac]

It's not illegal to make backups of anything as long as it's not for distribution or public use. YOu can do whatever you want with your own property.

 

[Flashram]

It is not illegal to backup dvds that you own.

 

[Jzero]

It's not illegal to backup your DVD.
It's illegal to sell or give the backup to someone else.
It's illegal to give the original to someone else and not give them or destroy the backup.
It MAY be illegal to develop or use a way to circumvent the DVD's copy protection regardless of your intent (DMCA).

But in itself, there's nothing illegal about backing up a DVD.

 

[mithrandir2001]

Sorry. You are all wrong. It is illegal. That wouldn't necessarily stop me, though. But just understand that if you do make backups, the law is not on your side.

 

[Kenji4861]

Yes, I did research on software and you can't make copies for yourself. Only "1" for archival purposes. Whatever that means.

 

[mithrandir2001]

The reason why it is illegal to backup DVDs (and not audio CDs) is that to do so you must first crack the CSS protection. Audio CDs don't have this protection; backing up is fair use. But the movie studios designed the DVD format so that they would have control (region coding, CSS) over the content. You technically don't "own" the contents on the DVD...it's kind of like a license, like software. AFAIK, you can't even legally play DVD movies on the Linux OS. The movie studios reserved the right to control the playback of DVDs.

I'm not saying I agree with this, but I know that's how it stands.

 

[Oyeve]

mithrandir2001 is right. You are not allowed to back up any piece of sw. You should read the small print when you install a program soemtime. I read the small print on Novell once and the laws in there are pretty amazing.

 

[Jzero]

<< mithrandir2001 is right. You are not allowed to back up any piece of sw. You should read the small print when you install a program soemtime. I read the small print on Novell once and the laws in there are pretty amazing. >>



Those aren't laws at all.

Further, the legality of those license agreements is pretty questionable. No one has really tried to challenge or uphold one in court as yet, so it's hard to say.
Further, disclaimers warranties and license agreements cannot and do not always hold water. Just because the license agreement says "We say you can't do this and you agree when you click yes" does not mean that it will hold water in a court.

Even further, I have never seen such a click-through license on any DVD.....in fact I have never seen a license agreement on any of the DVDs I have. There is the FBI notice about unauthorized copying, public performance, blah blah blah, however "Unauthorized" does not include "fair use."

If backing up a DVD falls under fair use (which I believe it does) then the "unauthorized" part doesn't hold true.

Regardless, I'd like to see some links supporting mithandr2001's case....

 

[Instan00dles]

I dont care if it is illegal, if I want to make a back-up of something that I purchased from a store I am going to do it.

 

[her209]

If you are indeed purchasing a liscense from these so-called corporations, then should the corporations be forced to replaced damaged/lost items such as scratched/unplayable cds/dvds?

 

[mithrandir2001]

Perhaps I am not up to date with the capabilities of the latest software, but is it possible to make a bit-for-bit copy of a DVD using a tool like CloneCD? Or do you have to "rip" the DVD to your hard drive and then burn it back?

If the former is possible, then the legality of such backups is up in the air and possibly not overtly illegal. Generally, the law says you are entitled to make backups of digital media for personal use only. The movie studios and their law firms think differently, but there is no definitive answer at the moment.

However, if you MUST crack the CSS to rip the DVD, then this process of backing up the DVD is illegal. You are violating the DCMA by overcoming the DVD's protection scheme. It may be your right to make backups, but this is overruled if the media format you are trying to copy is expressly engineered to prevent duplication.

I think it's implied that you cannot make a legal DVD backup. But perhaps this doesn't matter because we know the law only has so much effect (as demonstrated by yesterday's announcement that 25% of all alcohol in this country is consumed by underaged drinkers. The 21 drinking age is suuuurely effective. )

 

[Jzero]

<< I'm not saying I agree with this, but I know that's how it stands. >>


Somehow I missed Mithandr's update. Don't worry about the links, it seems we are pretty much in agreement based on my prior statement:


<< It MAY be illegal to develop or use a way to circumvent the DVD's copy protection regardless of your intent (DMCA). >>



I say MAY be illegal b/c while the DMCA is worded in such a way, it's another thing that really hasn't been put through the legal wringer yet. I believe the case that got Skylarov in hot water has yet to be tried (Skylarov got a plea bargain, but his company is faced with charges under the DMCA).

As for:


<< If you are indeed purchasing a liscense from these so-called corporations, then should the corporations be forced to replaced damaged/lost items such as scratched/unplayable cds/dvds? >>


I dunno if they can be forced to replace lost or damage media, but I know many companies will. Where I work, we have our licenses on record, as well as our fulfillment house that we buy the stuff from. If we call up and say "Our exchange server CD is scratched and doesn't work" they will send us a new one and only charge us the cost of media and shipping. They only send us the media, not an additional license.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

I think mithrandir2001 is right. Making a backup of a DVD isn't illegal in itself, but cracking the encryption to do so is under the DCMA.

And DCMA = Bad.

http://anti-dmca.org/

 

[her209]

DCMA is as effective as a printed label that says "DO NOT MAKE ILLEGAL COPIES OF THIS DISC".

 

[gopunk]

has the dcma held up in a court of law? just because it's there doesn't mean it's legal.

 

[hevnsnt]

Are you guys talking about making VCD's or whatever.. Or can you copy a DVD now?

 

[UofI]

You can backup anything and store it on your computer as long as you dont distribute it.

 

[her209]

has the dcma held up in a court of law? just because it's there doesn't mean it's legal.

I agree. The issue here is BACKUP and not DISTRIBUTION. The definition of copyright infringement is when you COPY AND DISTRIBUTE or RECEIVE information (in the general sense) that caused copyright owner to not get their "fair" share. But if you already purchasesd the information, I don't see how making a copy of something that is yours illegal as long as you don't commit copyright infringement.

The bottom question (line), is DCMA a law or an agreement? If it is a law, then yes it is illegal. If it is an agreement, then its a reservation to sue you (which I don't think will hold up in court anyway because its seems contradicting to the law). However, if you do make backup of the information, when you do sell it, any backups in your possession must be "destroyed" (given to the new owner?).

Similarly, you are allowed to "rip" a CD to MP3 format so long as you don't give those MP3s to your friends.

My $0.02.

 

[Kilrsat]

<< has the dcma held up in a court of law? just because it's there doesn't mean it's legal. >>


The DMCA has held up in California and New York courts (specifically MPAA v. Reimerdes in New York, I can't remember the California case at the moment,) unfortunately. Even more unfortunate is the way it has been held up, and that being the sections that redefine actions that were once considered "fair use," taking precedence over the sections that specifically mention fair use inside the DMCA itself.

Judge Kaplan's (of New York) findings are available online in pdf format (if I remember right the total is around 96 pages, makes for interesting reading if you're bored one day.)

*edit*
And as has been said before, DVDs and the new copy protected CDs (ones that don't play properly in computer cd-roms) are completely different animals than your tradition CD, tape, vhs, etc. Because they use what is legally defined as a "content control system" and when you dig around inside the DMCA (which is a law, not an agreement) you'll find that it specifically makes circumventing, or publishing tools that can circumvent content control systems illegal. The only current method to backup a DVD is to circumvent the encryption system ("ripping" it to your harddrive) and thus, backing up your DVD becomes illegal. (Same principles would apply to the new copy protected CDs, if you violate their control system in anyway, basically if you use it in any method not intended by the author, it becomes illegal.)

 

[Vic]

<< mithrandir2001 is right. You are not allowed to back up any piece of sw. You should read the small print when you install a program soemtime. I read the small print on Novell once and the laws in there are pretty amazing. >>



EULA's make for great reading. For example, IIRC, in the Q3A EULA it states (in effect) that the copy of the game that is placed in your RAM while running the software is your only legal "archival" copy.

 

[rahvin]

The DMCA has not been tested with the supreme court, mmmmkayyyy. It's constitutionality in regard to fair use has not been defined and as such the law is not guaranteed. The MPAA and RIAA are walking a really fine line here and if they mistep they are going to get hammered harder than they can imagine. Lessing has gotten approval to appeal an extension of copyrights to 70 years after death of artist. If he succeeds in getting congress slapped for eliminating the provisions outlined in the constitution then a LOT of movies and other material is going to be suddenly in the public domain.

The legal question with the DMCA and CSS has to do with this, after the copyright expires does the CSS system and DMCA prevent fair use of the public work? If it does than the law has a good chance of being unconstitutional. Does the CSS system in effect extend copyrights to infinity? If so then the system itself could be considered abuse of copyright. When you abuse a copyright you lose it. It's a very fine line.

 

[zsouthboy]

<< has the dcma held up in a court of law? just because it's there doesn't mean it's legal.

I agree. The issue here is BACKUP and not DISTRIBUTION. The definition of copyright infringement is when you COPY AND DISTRIBUTE or RECEIVE information (in the general sense) that caused copyright owner to not get their "fair" share. But if you already purchasesd the information, I don't see how making a copy of something that is yours illegal as long as you don't commit copyright infringement.

The bottom question (line), is DCMA a law or an agreement? If it is a law, then yes it is illegal. If it is an agreement, then its a reservation to sue you (which I don't think will hold up in court anyway because its seems contradicting to the law). However, if you do make backup of the information, when you do sell it, any backups in your possession must be "destroyed" (given to the new owner?).

Similarly, you are allowed to "rip" a CD to MP3 format so long as you don't give those MP3s to your friends.

My $0.02. >>



Dude there's a law that says you CAN share your music with your friends..... I forgot the specific name of it..... but it was also what Napster used as "defense" in their case.....

Anyone know the name of it?

As for the DVD backup, theoretically it is illegal, because you have to de-CSS 'em..... But as others have said, no one has brought them to court, so who knows if it holds water or not....

DMCA = Bastards... Lemme get this straight.... I can buy this movie.....I can watch this movie as many times as I want..... I can let all my friends watch it with me.........I could throw this movie in the microwave for some night time fun.... but I can't make a backup of it just in case my 8 yr old cousin gets a hold of it, and starts throwing it around the house? Oh, wait, that means I have to buy another one...... no wonder....

its like extortion or something...

zs

 

[rahvin]

<< Dude there's a law that says you CAN share your music with your friends..... I forgot the specific name of it..... but it was also what Napster used as "defense" in their case..... >>



Due, there is no law that says you can share your music. It's called music piracy and it's the very reason Napster was shut down by the court.

 

[Hooobi]

For you guys with more insight into how copying a DVD works, is there any way that a DVD could be duplicated w/o breaking the encryption?

For instance, wouldn't it be theoretically possible to have a DVD Reader & DVD Burner linked where the Burner simply determines where each bit is burned in the original & simply burns a corresponding bit into the blank media, all without ever "decrypting" or analyzying anything?