Is an armament sickening U.S. soldiers?

sadguy

Member
Jun 27, 2005
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Time to wake up, kids. Our boys are dying due to what the government is hiding.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060812/ap_on_re_us/radiation_soldiers


NEW YORK - It takes at least 10 minutes and a large glass of orange juice to wash down all the pills ? morphine, methadone, a muscle relaxant, an antidepressant, a stool softener. Viagra for sexual dysfunction. Valium for his nerves.

Four hours later, Herbert Reed will swallow another 15 mg of morphine to cut the pain clenching every part of his body. He will do it twice more before the day is done.

Since he left a bombed-out train depot in Iraq, his gums bleed. There is more blood in his urine, and still more in his stool. Bright light hurts his eyes. A tumor has been removed from his thyroid. Rashes erupt everywhere, itching so badly they seem to live inside his skin. Migraines cleave his skull. His joints ache, grating like door hinges in need of oil.

There is something massively wrong with Herbert Reed, though no one is sure what it is. He believes he knows the cause, but he cannot convince anyone caring for him that the military's new favorite weapon has made him terrifyingly sick.

In the sprawling bureaucracy of the Department of Veterans Affairs, he has many caretakers. An internist, a neurologist, a pain-management specialist, a psychologist, an orthopedic surgeon and a dermatologist. He cannot function without his stupefying arsenal of medications, but they exact a high price.

"I'm just a zombie walking around," he says.

Reed believes depleted uranium has contaminated him and his life. He now walks point in a vitriolic war over the Pentagon's arsenal of it ? thousands of shells and hundreds of tanks coated with the metal that is radioactive, chemically toxic, and nearly twice as dense as lead.

A shell coated with depleted uranium pierces a tank like a hot knife through butter, exploding on impact into a charring inferno. As tank armor, it repels artillery assaults. It also leaves behind a fine radioactive dust with a half-life of 4.5 billion years.

Depleted uranium is the garbage left from producing enriched uranium for nuclear weapons and energy plants. It is 60 percent as radioactive as natural uranium. The U.S. has an estimated 1.5 billion pounds of it, sitting in hazardous waste storage sites across the country. Meaning it is plentiful and cheap as well as highly effective.

Reed says he unknowingly breathed DU dust while living with his unit in Samawah, Iraq. He was med-evaced out in July 2003, nearly unable to walk because of lightning-strike pains from herniated discs in his spine. Then began a strange series of symptoms he'd never experienced in his previously healthy life.

At Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, D.C, he ran into a buddy from his unit. And another, and another, and in the tedium of hospital life between doctor visits and the dispensing of meds, they began to talk.

"We all had migraines. We all felt sick," Reed says. "The doctors said, 'It's all in your head.' "

Then the medic from their unit showed up. He too, was suffering. That made eight sick soldiers from the 442nd Military Police, an Army National Guard unit made up of mostly cops and correctional officers from the New York area.

But the medic knew something the others didn't.

Dutch marines had taken over the abandoned train depot dubbed Camp Smitty, which was surrounded by tank skeletons, unexploded ordnance and shell casings. They'd brought radiation-detection devices. The readings were so hot, the Dutch set up camp in the middle of the desert rather than live in the station ruins.

"We got on the Internet," Reed said, "and we started researching depleted uranium."

Then they contacted The New York Daily News, which paid for sophisticated urine tests available only overseas.

Then they hired a lawyer.

___

Reed, Gerard Matthew, Raymond Ramos, Hector Vega, Augustin Matos, Anthony Yonnone, Jerry Ojeda and Anthony Phillip all have depleted uranium in their urine, according to tests done in December 2003, while they bounced for months between Walter Reed and New Jersey's Fort Dix medical center, seeking relief that never came.

The analyses were done in Germany, by a Frankfurt professor who developed a depleted uranium test with Randall Parrish, a professor of isotope geology at the University of Leicester in Britain.

The veterans, using their positive results as evidence, have sued the U.S. Army, claiming officials knew the hazards of depleted uranium, but concealed the risks.

The Department of Defense says depleted uranium is powerful and safe, and not that worrisome.

Four of the highest-registering samples from Frankfurt were sent to the VA. Those results were negative, Reed said. "Their test just isn't as sophisticated," he said. "And when we first asked to be tested, they told us there wasn't one. They've lied to us all along."

The VA's testing methodology is safe and accurate, the agency says. More than 2,100 soldiers from the current war have asked to be tested; only 8 had DU in their urine, the VA said.

The term depleted uranium is linguistically radioactive. Simply uttering the words can prompt a reaction akin to preaching atheism at tent revival. Heads shake, eyes roll, opinions are yelled from all sides.

"The Department of Defense takes the position that you can eat it for breakfast and it poses no threat at all," said Steve Robinson of the National Gulf War Resource Center, which helps veterans with various problems, including navigating the labyrinth of VA health care. "Then you have far-left groups that ... declare it a crime against humanity."

Several countries use it as weaponry, including Britain, which fired it during the 2003 Iraq invasion.

An estimated 286 tons of DU munitions were fired by the U.S. in Iraq and Kuwait in 1991. An estimated 130 tons were shot toppling Saddam Hussein.

Depleted uranium can enter the human body by inhalation, the most dangerous method; by ingesting contaminated food or eating with contaminated hands; by getting dust or debris in an open wound, or by being struck by shrapnel, which often is not removed because doing so would be more dangerous than leaving it.

Inhaled, it can lodge in the lungs. As with imbedded shrapnel, this is doubly dangerous ? not only are the particles themselves physically destructive, they emit radiation.

A moderate voice on the divisive DU spectrum belongs to Dan Fahey, a doctoral student at the University of California at Berkeley, who has studied the issue for years and also served in the Gulf War before leaving the military as a conscientious objector.

"I've been working on this since '93 and I've just given up hope," he said. "I've spoken to successive federal committees and elected officials ... who then side with the Pentagon. Nothing changes."

At the other end are a collection of conspiracy-theorists and Internet proselytizers who say using such weapons constitutes genocide. Two of the most vocal opponents recently suggested that a depleted-uranium missile, not a hijacked jetliner, struck the Pentagon in 2001.

"The bottom line is it's more hazardous than the Pentagon admits," Fahey said, "but it's not as hazardous as the hard-line activist groups say it is. And there's a real dearth of information about how DU affects humans."

There are several studies on how it affects animals, though their results are not, of course, directly applicable to humans. Military research on mice shows that depleted uranium can enter the bloodstream and come to rest in bones, the brain, kidneys and lymph nodes. Other research in rats shows that DU can result in cancerous tumors and genetic mutations, and pass from mother to unborn child, resulting in birth defects.

Iraqi doctors reported significant increases in birth defects and childhood cancers after the 1991 invasion.

Iraqi authorities "found that uranium, which affected the blood cells, had a serious impact on health: The number of cases of leukemia had increased considerably, as had the incidence of fetal deformities," the U.N. reported.

Depleted uranium can also contaminate soil and water, and coat buildings with radioactive dust, which can by carried by wind and sandstorms.

In 2005, the U.N. Environmental Program identified 311 polluted sites in Iraq. Cleaning them will take at least $40 million and several years, the agency said. Nothing can start until the fighting stops.

___

Fifteen years after it was first used in battle, there is only one U.S. government study monitoring veterans exposed to depleted uranium.

Number of soldiers in the survey: 32. Number of soldiers in both Iraq wars: more than 900,000.

The study group's size is controversial ? far too small, say experts including Fahey ? and so are the findings of the voluntary, Baltimore-based study.

It has found "no clinically significant" health effects from depleted uranium exposure in the study subjects, according to its researchers.

Critics say the VA has downplayed participants' health problems, including not reporting one soldier who developed cancer, and another who developed a bone tumor.

So for now, depleted uranium falls into the quagmire of Gulf War Syndrome, from which no treatment has emerged despite the government's spending of at least $300 million.

About 30 percent of the 700,000 men and women who served in the first Gulf War still suffer a baffling array of symptoms very similar to those reported by Reed's unit.

Depleted uranium has long been suspected as a possible contributor to Gulf War Syndrome, and in the mid-90s, veterans helped push the military into tracking soldiers exposed to it.

But for all their efforts, what they got in the end was a questionnaire dispensed to homeward-bound soldiers asking about mental health, nightmares, losing control, exposure to dangerous and radioactive chemicals.

But, the veterans persisted, how would soldiers know they'd been exposed? Radiation is invisible, tasteless, and has no smell. And what exhausted, homesick, war-addled soldier would check a box that would only send him or her to a military medical center to be poked and prodded and questioned and tested?

It will take years to determine how depleted uranium affected soldiers from this war. After Vietnam, veterans, in numbers that grew with the passage of time, complained of joint aches, night sweats, bloody feces, migraine headaches, unexplained rashes and violent behavior; some developed cancers.

It took more than 25 years for the Pentagon to acknowledge that Agent Orange ? a corrosive defoliant used to melt the jungles of Vietnam and flush out the enemy ? was linked to those sufferings.

It took 40 years for the military to compensate sick World War II vets exposed to massive blasts of radiation during tests of the atomic bomb.

In 2002, Congress voted to not let that happen again.

It established the Research Advisory Committee on Gulf War Veterans' Illnesses ? comprised of scientists, physicians and veterans advocates. It reports to the secretary of Veterans Affairs.

Its mandate is to judge all research and all efforts to treat Gulf War Syndrome patients against a single standard: Have sick soldiers been made better?

The answer, according to the committee, is no.

"Regrettably, after four years of operation neither the Committee nor (the) VA can report progress toward this goal," stated its December 2005 report. "Research has not produced effective treatments for these conditions nor shown that existing treatments are significantly effective."

And so time marches on, as do soldiers going to, and returning from, the deserts of Iraq.

___

Herbert Reed is an imposing man, broad shouldered and tall. He strides into the VA Medical Center in the Bronx with the presence of a cop or a soldier. Since the Vietnam War, he has been both.

His hair is perfect, his shirt spotless, his jeans sharply creased. But there is something wrong, a niggling imperfection made more noticeable by a bearing so disciplined. It is a limp ? more like a hitch in his get-along.

It is the only sign, albeit a tiny one, that he is extremely sick.

Even sleep offers no release. He dreams of gunfire and bombs and soldiers who scream for help. No matter how hard he tries, he never gets there in time.

At 54, he is a veteran of two wars and a 20-year veteran of the New York Police Department, where he last served as an assistant warden at the Riker's Island prison.

He was in perfect health, he says, before being deployed to Iraq.

According to military guidelines, he should have heard the words depleted uranium long before he ended up at Walter Reed. He should have been trained about its dangers, and how to avoid prolonged exposure to its toxicity and radioactivity. He says he didn't get anything of the kind. Neither did other reservists and National Guard soldiers called up for the current war, according to veterans' groups.

Reed and the seven brothers from his unit hate what has happened to them, and they speak of it at public seminars and in politicians' offices. It is something no VA doctor can explain; something that leaves them feeling like so many spent shell rounds, kicked to the side of battle.

But for every outspoken soldier like them, there are silent veterans like Raphael Naboa, an Army artillery scout who served 11 months in the northern Sunni Triangle, only to come home and fall apart.

Some days he feels fine. "Some days I can't get out of bed," he said from his home in Colorado.

Now 29, he's had growths removed from his brain. He has suffered a small stroke ? one morning he was shaving, having put down the razor to rinse his face. In that moment, he blacked out and pitched over.

"Just as quickly as I lost consciousness, I regained it," he said. "Except I couldn't move the right side of my body."

After about 15 minutes, the paralysis ebbed.

He has mentioned depleted uranium to his VA doctors, who say he suffers from a series of "non-related conditions." He knows he was exposed to DU.

"A lot of guys went trophy-hunting, grabbing bayonets, helmets, stuff that was in the vehicles that were destroyed by depleted uranium. My guys were rooting around in it. I was trying to get them out of the vehicles."

No one in the military talked to him about depleted uranium, he said. His knowledge, like Reed's, is self-taught from the Internet.

Unlike Reed, he has not gone to war over it. He doesn't feel up to the fight. There is no known cure for what ails him, and so no possible victory in battle.

He'd really just like to feel normal again. And he knows of others who feel the same.

"I was an artillery scout, these are folks who are in pretty good shape. Your Rangers, your Special Forces guys, they're in as good as shape as a professional athlete.

"Then we come back and we're all sick."

They feel like men who once were warriors and now are old before their time, with no hope for relief from a multitude of miseries that has no name.
 
Jun 27, 2005
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According to the WHO we are surrounded by DU in our everyday lives.

Linky
Applications of depleted uranium

Due to its high density, about twice that of lead, the main civilian uses of DU include counterweights in aircraft, radiation shields in medical radiation therapy machines and containers for the transport of radioactive materials. The military uses DU for defensive armour plate.

DU is used in armour penetrating military ordnance because of its high density, and also because DU can ignite on impact if the temperature exceeds 600°C.
This one was my favorite...
In a number of studies on uranium miners, an increased risk of lung cancer was demonstrated, but this has been attributed to exposure from radon decay products. Lung tissue damage is possible leading to a risk of lung cancer that increases with increasing radiation dose. However, because DU is only weakly radioactive, very large amounts of dust (on the order of grams) would have to be inhaled for the additional risk of lung cancer to be detectable in an exposed group. Risks for other radiation-induced cancers, including leukaemia, are considered to be very much lower than for lung cancer.
If uraniuim miners can't attribute their illnesses to raw uranium (much less depleted uranium) then why are you going to be overly concerned with DU exposure?

DU is with us in our every day lives. Can we put this one to bed now?
 
Jun 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
This is nothing new. It's well known, just not enough power left to the people to enforce changes.

It is not well known. It's driven by irrational fear that all things radio active are equally dangerous. People hear "uranium" and they think nuclear power. They don't think in terms that uranium is all around us and is a fairly low radio active element in it's natural form.

Natural uranium consists of a mixture of 235U and 238U in a .7% : 99.3% mixture. The 235U is the nasty part and that is what is stripped out of the raw uranium to make the fuel for nuclear reactors. (Enriched uranium) The left over 238U (depleted uranium) is far less radio active than raw uranium. In fact, it is used in medical devices to protect us from the far more dangerous radiation being used to take X-rays and the like.

It isn't dangerous. It has a half-life of 4.5 billion years for crying out loud. (That means it's very stable. You can't fling off many particles if it takes you that long to decay.)
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
This is nothing new. It's well known, just not enough power left to the people to enforce changes.

It is not well known. It's driven by irrational fear that all things radio active are equally dangerous. People hear "uranium" and they think nuclear power. They don't think in terms that uranium is all around us and is a fairly low radio active element in it's natural form.

Natural uranium consists of a mixture of 235U and 238U in a .7% : 99.3% mixture. The 235U is the nasty part and that is what is stripped out of the raw uranium to make the fuel for nuclear reactors. (Enriched uranium) The left over 238U (depleted uranium) is far less radio active than raw uranium. In fact, it is used in medical devices to protect us from the far more dangerous radiation being used to take X-rays and the like.

It isn't dangerous. It has a half-life of 4.5 billion years for crying out loud. (That means it's very stable. You can't fling off many particles if it takes you that long to decay.)

I think the reports on veteran afflictions following various gulf campaigns pretty much speaks for itself. It's really no different than the whole 'agent orange' thing. The government often endangers soldiers in an effort to protect them. I'm not claiming some evil conspiracy, just stating that there's very likely a danger here that hasn't been admitted yet. I'm sure within a few years it will all come out and policies will change.
 

straightalker

Senior member
Dec 21, 2005
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"Terry Jemison of the Department of Veterans Affairs reported this week to the American Free Press that "Gulf-era veterans" now on medical disability since 1991 number 518,739, with only 7,035 reported wounded in Iraq in that same 14-year period.

In a group of 251 soldiers from a study group in Mississippi who had all had normal babies before the Gulf War, 67 percent of their post-war babies were born with severe birth defects. They were born with missing legs, arms, organs or eyes or had immune system and blood diseases. In some veterans' families now, the only normal or healthy members of the family are the children born before the war.

Thousands of tons of DU weapons tested for decades by the Navy on four bombing and gunnery ranges around Fallon, Nevada, is no doubt the cause of the fastest growing leukemia cluster in the U.S. over the past decade."


Not dangerous Whoozyerdaddy?

Thanks for supporting our troops.
 
Jun 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: straightalker
"Terry Jemison of the Department of Veterans Affairs reported this week to the American Free Press that "Gulf-era veterans" now on medical disability since 1991 number 518,739, with only 7,035 reported wounded in Iraq in that same 14-year period.

In a group of 251 soldiers from a study group in Mississippi who had all had normal babies before the Gulf War, 67 percent of their post-war babies were born with severe birth defects. They were born with missing legs, arms, organs or eyes or had immune system and blood diseases. In some veterans' families now, the only normal or healthy members of the family are the children born before the war.

Thousands of tons of DU weapons tested for decades by the Navy on four bombing and gunnery ranges around Fallon, Nevada, is no doubt the cause of the fastest growing leukemia cluster in the U.S. over the past decade."


Not dangerous Whoozyerdaddy?

Thanks for supporting our troops.

And what do those numbers look like as a whole across the entire force that was there? You can't tell me that 67% of gulf war vet babies are born with birth defects. Manipulation of statistics is not science nor is it proof of a problem.

I specifically researched non-military sources so as to avoid being accused of sucking up to the powers that be. At every turn what you find out is that DU is incredibly weak radioactively and that massive exposure is required to cause any ill effects. It decays so slowly that, if ingested, the body processes it out before any significant decay occurs.

Again, DU is used in medical facilities to protect you from from other more dangerous sources of radiation. It's used in airplanes. It's used as transport cases for radioactive materials. It simply isn't radioactive enough to cause any harm.

Incidently, you didn't post a link for your quote.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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We beat this topic to death not long ago.. same dialog from the same people..

In 5 or 10 years Congress will hold hearings probably chaired by someone other than Chris Shays... and they will hear testimony that something caused the statistical anomaly among returning Gulf Veterans.. then another 5 years later they will admit that recent techniques used to determine such things prove conclusively that something is wrong... and that it will never happen again... they may even pass a law like they did in 2002 about the Vets and the atomic bomb research in the 40's
 

straightalker

Senior member
Dec 21, 2005
515
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whoseyourdaddy quote:

"Incidently, you didn't post a link for your quote"

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////

You don't read any information about DU anyways so why do you need the link.

Those of us who have chosen to support our troops can just google the entire text or parts of the text to find the links to the article.


 
Jun 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: straightalker
whoseyourdaddy quote:

Incidently, you didn't post a link for your quote

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////

You don't read any information about DU anyways so why do you need the link.

Those of us who have chosen to support our troops can just google the entire text or parts of the text to find the links to the article.
Haha... I won't read it so no need to post it. Ok. I'll just take your word for it. :roll:

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/du.htm
http://www.wise-uranium.org/ruxd.html

All say the same thing. The radiation emitted by DU barely registers above the natural background radiation that we are exposed to every day. The tritium used in Exit signs is far more radio active than DU.

And you dodged my question. What percentage of gulf war vets have had children with birth defects and how does that differ from the population at large?

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
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I guess I sorta resent personally when folks poo poo the illness our Vets come home with..
In Nha-trang, Vietnam ....... well lets just say... folks in government wouldn't agree that poison IS poison.. imagine that..

Imagine just the folks in the laundry doing the clothes all saturated with this crap as well as the folks who ingested it into their lungs and skin who wore those on patrol.

Every dam one of the folks who went to war are heroes.

To those of you who say DU or orange juice wouldn't hurt anyone... I say... DEFER TO THE VET.. ASSUME IT DOES.. ASSUME HE IS ILL AND CONSIDER ANY COST INCURRED IN HIS HEALTH CARE PART OF THE COST OF DOING WAR. YOU DON'T PAY VERY MUCH TO FOLKS TO PUT THEIR LIFE ON THE LINE FOR WHAT YOU GAIN... AND NEVER EVER DENY A NEXUS BETWEEN A VET'S ILLNESS AND THE CRAP HE/SHE IS SURROUNDED BY... PROVE BEYOND ANY DOUBT THAT IT IS NOT.. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND... THIS IS A TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE ISSUE.. HOW MANY SHALL DIE FOR LACK OF CARE...
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
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The fact of the matter is that its not really possible to say that DU is bad for people. I find it completely amazing that some people (and in the journalistic commuity) who have no medical knowledge are so quick to try to blame DU for these problems. MAYBE DU is bad for people, MAYBE its completely fine, the fact is that nobody here has any clue, so discussion will be based purely on emotional appeals than facts. There is really no scientific consensus on this issue. I think probably the 2 biggest reasons why anyone woudl believe this claim are a fear of unknown and radioactive elements like Uranium, and a beleif that the government does not care about the soldiers. Right now there really is not enough proof from either side for anyone to claim that their position is certainly right.

Anyways, my point is that you are completely wasting your time arguing this issue, its been done so many times here its not even funny, and the more vehemently you argue for it the more you just look uninformed.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
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Originally posted by: BrownTown
The fact of the matter is that its not really possible to say that DU is bad for people. I find it completely amazing that some people (and in the journalistic commuity) who have no medical knowledge are so quick to try to blame DU for these problems. MAYBE DU is bad for people, MAYBE its completely fine, the fact is that nobody here has any clue, so discussion will be based purely on emotional appeals than facts. There is really no scientific consensus on this issue. I think probably the 2 biggest reasons why anyone woudl believe this claim are a fear of unknown and radioactive elements like Uranium, and a beleif that the government does not care about the soldiers. Right now there really is not enough proof from either side for anyone to claim that their position is certainly right.

Anyways, my point is that you are completely wasting your time arguing this issue, its been done so many times here its not even funny, and the more vehemently you argue for it the more you just look uninformed.


There is a larger point... really there is..

If a Vet is ill and many are equally ill with the same illness.. then something where they were may be the cause.. statistically they have encountered the same 'thing' producing the same 'result' in their bodies.. and or in the babies they produce..

DU, sand, palm trees, camels.. who cares.. treat them.. and prove that shooting camels from 105mm canons can't hurt anything but the camel.. prove it beyond doubt..

Edit: I guess I can see that the notion of 'break it you bought it' is best denied at the break part..
All Vets should be presumed to be entitled to health care as a cost of war..
I know Agent Orange is the cause of many disease and it took many many years to get Government to agree that it is..

We may not even have the technical ability to determine what DU can do.. so you presume full and complete knowledge on the subject.. and I don't know what I don't know.. but know that no one else does either
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
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Originally posted by: straightalker
"Terry Jemison of the Department of Veterans Affairs reported this week to the American Free Press that "Gulf-era veterans" now on medical disability since 1991 number 518,739, with only 7,035 reported wounded in Iraq in that same 14-year period.

That's a nice figure. I like how you try to lead people to assume that 500,000 people are somehow made ill by the DU.
 

straightalker

Senior member
Dec 21, 2005
515
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Originally posted by: LunarRay
I guess I sorta resent personally when folks poo poo the illness our Vets come home with..
In Nha-trang, Vietnam ....... well lets just say... folks in government wouldn't agree that poison IS poison.. imagine that..

Imagine just the folks in the laundry doing the clothes all saturated with this crap as well as the folks who ingested it into their lungs and skin who wore those on patrol.

Every dam one of the folks who went to war are heroes.

To those of you who say DU or orange juice wouldn't hurt anyone... I say... DEFER TO THE VET.. ASSUME IT DOES.. ASSUME HE IS ILL AND CONSIDER ANY COST INCURRED IN HIS HEALTH CARE PART OF THE COST OF DOING WAR. YOU DON'T PAY VERY MUCH TO FOLKS TO PUT THEIR LIFE ON THE LINE FOR WHAT YOU GAIN... AND NEVER EVER DENY A NEXUS BETWEEN A VET'S ILLNESS AND THE CRAP HE/SHE IS SURROUNDED BY... PROVE BEYOND ANY DOUBT THAT IT IS NOT.. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND... THIS IS A TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE ISSUE.. HOW MANY SHALL DIE FOR LACK OF CARE...

Excellent response. So very true that it deserved repeating in a quote.

Now to Browntown and Whoseyourdaddy i have just one question. Why do you hate our USA soldiers? Why do you hate America?

Those who care about our troops and for America can search for the truth here...

AMERICAN GULF WAR VETERANS ASSOCIATION

The best and most trusted Veterans help organization on the planet. Hosted by Gulf War I veteran Captain Joyce Riley.

Find out what the USA/Israeli/British military industrial complex's war machine has really been up to. You won't learn anything from CNN and Fox. These are both directly controlled by the perps who dump DU all over the planet. The proven equivelant of 40,000 Hiroshima bombs going off. In sum total of the released radiation of the millions of pounds of DU dust that have been ejected into the air and jetstreams over the years.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
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Originally posted by: straightalker
Originally posted by: LunarRay
I guess I sorta resent personally when folks poo poo the illness our Vets come home with..
In Nha-trang, Vietnam ....... well lets just say... folks in government wouldn't agree that poison IS poison.. imagine that..

Imagine just the folks in the laundry doing the clothes all saturated with this crap as well as the folks who ingested it into their lungs and skin who wore those on patrol.

Every dam one of the folks who went to war are heroes.

To those of you who say DU or orange juice wouldn't hurt anyone... I say... DEFER TO THE VET.. ASSUME IT DOES.. ASSUME HE IS ILL AND CONSIDER ANY COST INCURRED IN HIS HEALTH CARE PART OF THE COST OF DOING WAR. YOU DON'T PAY VERY MUCH TO FOLKS TO PUT THEIR LIFE ON THE LINE FOR WHAT YOU GAIN... AND NEVER EVER DENY A NEXUS BETWEEN A VET'S ILLNESS AND THE CRAP HE/SHE IS SURROUNDED BY... PROVE BEYOND ANY DOUBT THAT IT IS NOT.. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND... THIS IS A TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE ISSUE.. HOW MANY SHALL DIE FOR LACK OF CARE...

Excellent response. So very true that it deserved repeating in a quote.

Now to Browntown and Whoseyourdaddy i have just one question. Why do you hate our USA soldiers? Why do you hate America?

Those who care about our troops and for America can search for the truth here...

AMERICAN GULF WAR VETERANS ASSOCIATION

The best and most trusted Veterans help organization on the planet. Hosted by Gulf War I veteran Captain Joyce Riley.

Find out what the USA/Israeli/British military industrial complex's war machine has really been up to. You won't learn anything from CNN and Fox. These are both directly controlled by the perps who dump DU all over the planet. The proven equivelant of 40,000 Hiroshima bombs going off. In sum total of the released radiation of the millions of pounds of DU dust that have been ejected into the air and jetstreams over the years.

Is that post a joke?

First you say I hate American because I think people there is not enouhg research into DU, then you say the American government is hidding the truth and releasing radioactive materials all over the world? First off,that whole "you disagree with me so you must hate America" argument is just sad. But then you back it up with a crazy rant on the AMerican government being evil?
 
Jun 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: straightalker

Excellent response. So very true that it deserved repeating in a quote.

Now to Browntown and Whoseyourdaddy i have just one question. Why do you hate our USA soldiers? Why do you hate America?

Those who care about our troops and for America can search for the truth here...

AMERICAN GULF WAR VETERANS ASSOCIATION

The best and most trusted Veterans help organization on the planet. Hosted by Gulf War I veteran Captain Joyce Riley.

Find out what the USA/Israeli/British military industrial complex's war machine has really been up to. You won't learn anything from CNN and Fox. These are both directly controlled by the perps who dump DU all over the planet. The proven equivelant of 40,000 Hiroshima bombs going off. In sum total of the released radiation of the millions of pounds of DU dust that have been ejected into the air and jetstreams over the years.

Grow up. You have no answer to anything I have posted so you choose instead to try and paint me with the cowardly "you hate our vets" brush. Lame. :cookie:

Nobody is saying that these people are not suffering from something. If a vet says he's sick I believe him. That's not the point here. The real point is to find out WHY they are sick. Everything I've read about DU says that it isn't dangerous. I'm more inclined to believe that the fumes/smoke from the propellant that fires the DU shells down range is more dangerous than the DU itself.

DU is an easy scapegoat for those who are prone to knee-jerk about anything related to radiation. This does not solve anything. Correlation does not equal causation. For every one of these vets who is sick there are hundreds who are perfectly fine. There may be something at play here but to look at and DU and say "Aha! It's radio active, that's it!" is counter productive.

The simple scientific fact is that natural uranium isn't very radio active. And 40% of that radio activity is contained in the 0.7% of the uranium that is removed for use in power plants. What's left over (DU) is so stable that it's half life is about equal to the age of the earth. (4.5 billion years) We are exposed to items in our normal daily lives that pose a higher radiological threat than DU.

So let me ask you this. What about DU makes it dangerous?

Edit: I went through some of the links in your posted link. Some of them, most notably this one and this one have been so thouroughly debunked as fake it's laughable.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Yeah, clearly nobody here is saying we shouldn't help injured veterans, but there are a million different reasons why someone could get so sick, and right now nobody knows (even the conspiracy theorists have many differnet ideas on what casused Gulf War syndrome...)

Also, just for the sake of making arguments, saying that somoene who disagrees with you must hate America is more or less equivilent to calling someone Hitler/Faschist because they are conservattive, or Stalin/Communist because they are liberal. These arguments more or less make people lose respect for your position. So, if you want to convince people of your position and not jsut flame bait its probably best to not make such arguments.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
and a beleif that the government does not care about the soldiers.


I think that without a doubt, there is sufficient proof that the buffons who claim to be leading this country the
cowards who never served in combat, are so willing to sacrifice others to cover their pathetic egos, don't
give a good god damn about anyone in the service - except to use them like a pawn for their self promotion.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Whoozyerdaddy,

We will always use the best weaponry available which is what should be used cuz I presume it saves American Service men's lives by more effectivly killing the enemy.. (the right or wrong of the war at that point is irrelevant)

We are all a bit different genetically speaking but in general the same, I'd think.

I'd presume, therefore, that within reason what would harm you would harm me... to varying degrees depending on the dynamics involved..

I presume that folks in the scientific community latch on to what they understand as the truth and defend it because they 'know' what they 'know'.. That some disagree who are equally astute on a subject raises concern in my mind cuz they too 'know' what they 'know'.

We experts in the Duck Test analysis 'know' what we 'know' too... and some of the Duck Tests that I've seen raise questions... Not prove a thing at this point but raise legitimate questions...

Sticking with the munition grade DU.. ordinarilly I'd have said or decided that it makes sense to use a dense material like DU to penetrate a target.. and although there have been some contra opinion on the safety of its use prior to major usage it seems many in the medical community in and around where it was used have experienced elevated issues so maybe just maybe we don't know all we could know about the stuff.. There is also other studies that tend to support the notion that DU is not safe..
 

WiseOldDude

Senior member
Feb 13, 2005
702
0
0
Originally posted by: gsaldivar
*sigh*

not again... :roll:
Perhaps you should pay attention as it in not another "not again" dipwad, it is STILL.

Iraq is covered with pulversized depleated uranium and has known health consequences, and will for hundreds and hundreds of years, and the dipwad in the whitehouse don't give a sh!t and is condeming everyone in Iraq to future health problems, including our troops.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: straightalker
whoseyourdaddy quote:

"Incidently, you didn't post a link for your quote"

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////

You don't read any information about DU anyways so why do you need the link.

Those of us who have chosen to support our troops can just google the entire text or parts of the text to find the links to the article.

Because his link is straight off tinfoil.org or some other non-source. It's a lie.

In 1994, CDC collaborated with the Mississippi Department of Health and the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs to investigate reports of adverse birth outcomes among members of two Mississippi National Guard Units that served in the Gulf War. This investigation found no increase above expected rates in the total number of birth defects or in the frequency of premature births and low birth-weight babies. The frequency of other health problems, such as respiratory infections, gastroenteritis, and skin diseases among children born to these veterans also did not appear to be elevated.

CDC.gov
 
Jun 27, 2005
19,216
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Originally posted by: WiseOldDude
Originally posted by: gsaldivar
*sigh*

not again... :roll:
Perhaps you should pay attention as it in not another "not again" dipwad, it is STILL.

Iraq is covered with pulversized depleated uranium and has known health consequences, and will for hundreds and hundreds of years, and the dipwad in the whitehouse don't give a sh!t and is condeming everyone in Iraq to future health problems, including our troops.

Based on what? What are you basing these assertions on? Read any of my links. This is the part that gets me... you guys keep making these assertions but there is no evidence to back up what you are asserting.

If it were a substance that was only going to decay over a hundred years you'd be correct. The shorter the halflife the more dangerous the substance. DU has a halflife of over four billion five hundred million years.

If you know anything about how radio active substances decay then you'd know that a substance with such a halflife is as close to inert as you can get.