Is all next generation hardware just hype?

TechnoPro

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Jul 10, 2003
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SATA, DDR2, PCI-E, etc. - I keep reading that they are no better than their existing counterparts performamce-wise.

PC magazines rave about SATA as being higher performance that PATA, but the benchmarks and test seem to say otherwise. Wasn't the standard developed with higher speeds in mind, and not just thinner data cables?

I've also read that DDR2 lags behind DDR, despite promises of stellar speeds...

As for the PCI-E, I am not as well read on that, but I see the naysayers making claims that it is a lot of hype. Any truth there?
 

Hajime

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Oct 18, 2004
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Yeah, it's all pretty much hype with DDR-2 and SATA. At least IMO.

PCI-E isn't, however.
 

wfn

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Feb 14, 2001
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the time has come to make computers more cool looking instead of more advance... thats not necessarily a bad thing.. i could use a versace keyboard and a d&g case as well as brioni monitor.. that sh1t will getcha layd d0g
 

Mik3y

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Mar 2, 2004
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Originally posted by: Hajime
Yeah, it's all pretty much hype with DDR-2 and SATA. At least IMO.

PCI-E isn't, however.

i believe they are all hype. agp still has PLENTY of bandwidth left, so there is no true reason to utilize pci-e. sli is just a convenient aspect from pci-e, but still, its not truly worth it. the latest and greatest games can still run perfectly fine on the latest and greatest video cards.
 

Hajime

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Oct 18, 2004
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Mik3y: I wasn't talking about SLI, or graphic cards ;)

One phrase - Gigabit on PCI.

And let's not even get into 10gbit.
 

Gioron

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Jul 22, 2004
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At the moment, they're kinda hype, but they're all very expandable and will eventually be better than the current tech. PCI-E 1x isn't all that much better than PCI, but its easy to make a 2x or 4x slot when you need more bandwidth and this allows for more bandwidth hungry peripherals. PCI-E 16x graphics cards don't have much over AGP cards, but the implementation allows for things like SLI to come later on. DDR2 sucks compared to the same speed of DDR, but you'll eventually be able to clock DDR2 much higher than DDR. SATA offers real convenience advantages now, and promises speed advantages down the road once hard drives actually need more bandwith.

So they're not exactly hype, but they're being shoved into the market well before their time. The only thing I'm currently waiting for is a decent PCI-E raid card with the bandwidth to handle several fast hard drives at once. The rest should just wait in the wings until we need them.
 

elecrzy

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Sep 30, 2004
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PCIe wasn't developed with only video cards in mind. There are other high bandwidth components that need more than what PCI can offer: Gigabit/10Gbit, RAID, hardware encoders, etc. Also PCIe has lower latency and offers at least 625 MBps per slot. PCI offers a maximum of 133 MBps shared among all slots.
 

Shenkoa

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Jul 27, 2004
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Originally posted by: Mik3y
Originally posted by: Hajime
Yeah, it's all pretty much hype with DDR-2 and SATA. At least IMO.

PCI-E isn't, however.

i believe they are all hype. agp still has PLENTY of bandwidth left, so there is no true reason to utilize pci-e. sli is just a convenient aspect from pci-e, but still, its not truly worth it. the latest and greatest games can still run perfectly fine on the latest and greatest video cards.

While AGP does have enough bandwidth to keep newer cards up in speed it does have some rather nasty latency according to an article I read on the net. The purpose of PCI-E was to remove some of those lantency related bottlenecks. Why have the increased pipe with newer PCI-E slots, does your sound card need more bandwidth?? or possible the network card???, no consumer needs 7 SCSI U320 Maxtor Atlas's in RAID..... increased bandwidth means increased price.

SATA is faster then the PATA standart but the drives that are using PATA are no different on SATA. Only the raptor's will show off SATA and I bet if their was a PATA raptor that the benchmarks between the 2 would be very close.

DDR2 is able to scale higher in frequency but it has some lantency probloms, the frequency of DDR2 once it gets past 600 MHz will start to show a performance gain.

 

Goi

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Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: elecrzy
PCIe wasn't developed with only video cards in mind. There are other high bandwidth components that need more than what PCI can offer: Gigabit/10Gbit, RAID, hardware encoders, etc. Also PCIe has lower latency and offers at least 625 MBps per slot. PCI offers a maximum of 133 MBps shared among all slots.

 

Pariah

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Apr 16, 2000
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Would you rather have hardware released before you need it and drop to mass market prices by the time you actually do need them, or wait for hardware to be released well after we actually need it, allowing companies to charge substantially higher prices due to demand created by everyone needing it?
 

Elcs

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Apr 27, 2002
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For now, perhaps it is all hype.

PCI-E may be worth spending the extra £££'s on if you really need the extra bandwidth offered over your existing PCI slots or possibly even if you want a PCI-E only graphics card.

DDR2 as of now isnt competitive enough against DDR1 in price and performance to make it widely used like it probably will be in the future.

SATA is quite useful in the fact that the cables are nicer than IDE ones but for now, thats the only real tangible advantage they have for most of the mainstream users.

Im in a position where i can say, I have a good pc... why upgrade? Mobile Barton @ 2.2 ghz, 1 Gb DDR1, Radeon 9800P..... handles most games at good quality levels now. Although I doubt my PC's ability to handle games okish in 2 years time when I plan to upgrade next, I rarely see a game that I'll actually play be released these days.

This new technology is pretty cutting edge so to speak. It needs a bit more time to mature... perhaps even a few years before its true colours have a chance to show.
 

OS

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Oct 11, 1999
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Originally posted by: Hajime
Mik3y: I wasn't talking about SLI, or graphic cards ;)

One phrase - Gigabit on PCI.

And let's not even get into 10gbit.

This just moves the question over one step. How are you gonna saturate a gigabit ethernet connection seeing that even the fastest hard drives can't sustain 100+ mb/sec transfer?
 

TechnoPro

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Jul 10, 2003
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Originally posted by: Pariah
Would you rather have hardware released before you need it and drop to mass market prices by the time you actually do need them, or wait for hardware to be released well after we actually need it, allowing companies to charge substantially higher prices due to demand created by everyone needing it?

I would much rather have it released sooner, provided that there is actual disclosure that the technology has not fully matured. Quite frankly, I would buy a SATA drive simply because they are newer and have cleaner cabling. My gripe revolves around being fed with the misinformation that they are faster by definition.

This question of mine arose from a discussion with a client on legacy-free technology. I was thinking of how a PC equipped with the latest and greatest may not outperform a model with more mature components.

Yes, it's a given as far as I am concerned that these technologies will either mature and/or give way to fatser and better devices. Sometimes the marketing goes a bit far...
 

Sunner

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Oct 9, 1999
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None of the technologies you mentioned were brought to the market to magically make everything faster and better, they were brought to market to prepare for the future.
Right now, there's no compelling reason to pay extra for them, but once you need them, you'll be thankful it's all in place.
 

elecrzy

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Sep 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: OS
Originally posted by: Hajime
Mik3y: I wasn't talking about SLI, or graphic cards ;)

One phrase - Gigabit on PCI.

And let's not even get into 10gbit.

This just moves the question over one step. How are you gonna saturate a gigabit ethernet connection seeing that even the fastest hard drives can't sustain 100+ mb/sec transfer?

That's why we have RAID.
 

sunase

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Nov 28, 2002
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With one of my old "runs off IDE" computers the damn thing practically freezes up whenever I make heavy simultaneous use of the hard drive. Computers are getting better and better for video: just being able to copy video off your camcorder and edit and not screw with tapes is great. Computers are also getting more and more networked: bit torrent, p2p, FTP servers, whatever. And still this computer starts choking on having background tasks? My more SCSI based computers (and even the one with only 10krpm drives, not the one I have with 15krpm drives) don't have this problem at all.

So at least to my eye command queuing (one of the advantages of SCSI) is a very, very nice feature and I'm glad consumers are finally starting to get a taste of it with the newer SATA stuff. You also have independent connections instead of master and slave where only one device can talk at once and the complimentary PCIe so no more shared bus to clog with HD data. Lots of times even things integrated onto your motherboard make use of PCI and are limited by it as well, not just expansion cards.

Meanwhile CPU speeds have become nearly meaningless to me. Anything I need to happen fast, happens fast, and the longer things would still take long even with a faster one - so why should I bother getting the latest CPU? Things like SATA and PCIe and new types of RAM (isn't DDR2 supposed to eventually scale up more or something?) are all things I'm starting to place above pointless CPU upgrades. They still have a hope of providing a smoother user experience at least. People who don't use their computers for actually doing things and just play pointless games might not have realized this yet.
 

gobucks

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Oct 22, 2004
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Remember, better != faster, at least not necessarily. While I have my doubts about DDR2, since it won't provide much in the way of a performance boost for quite some time and is expensive, I do feel that SATA-II and PCIe are worthwhile, if not immediately must-have. SATA allows for performance drives like WD's Raptor 10000RPM drives, which would be bottlenecked on an old IDE channel. Also, as densities climb up, nearing 1TB of storage, and rotations remain constant, it's possible that even old 7200 RPM drives might have sustained reads and writes that need more bandwidth. SATA cables are also longer and more convenient than old IDE ones. SATA-II adds some cool stuff like hot-swapping of drives, an external SATA protocol, and Native Command Queueing, which makes reads and writes more efficient for better performance. These things aren't crucial, but since SATA drives are pretty damn cheap now, and mobos have standard support, why wouldn't you want one unless you have a good IDE drive already?

As for PCIe, it is important. For graphics, it will allow for techniques not possible with AGP. Improved upstream bandwidth allows for more data to be shuttled from main memory to graphics, allowing for more virtual memory for the card. Reduced latency will also help complex routines. Also AGP is a sloppy solution. PCI is old and outdated (people are finally realizing that serial is better than parallel with regards to interfaces), and AGP is a workaround to bypass the PCI bus, but it is a hack job. If a new standard, with a built in graphics interface can be developed, for an equal cost as a PCI/AGP solution, and with higher speed and more room for growth, then why not go for it? PCIe x1 slots each provide double the bandwidth of an entire PCI bus, and there can be lots of them. If one SATA controller can saturate a PCI bus, imagine what tomorrow's peripherals will be capable of. PCIe, much like socket 939 as opposed to 754 for the A64, is the platform of the future. Originally, PCIe cards were limited in variety and supply, but this is letting up. In fact, with products like the 6600, 6200, and X700 series, and soon-to be released NV41 and R430, it's clear the graphics companies are focusing more on PCIe than AGP. And if you compare the product lines, the best values are coming to PCIe. Compare the $180-200 6600GT to the $180-200 9800 Pro. The 6600GT is MUCH faster than the best $200 card on AGP. At the entry level, the 6200 outclasses the likes of the 5200 and 9200, and often even 5600 or 9600 class cards. While the current high-end was started as AGP, it was due to the earlier release of these cards, and will probably not be the case with the next generation hardware. AGP will be the leftovers, and if you want to upgrade, your not going to have the kind of selections and value available on PCIe, much like PCI is today.

I guess my basic suggestion is this - if you have some good hardware you want to hold on to, i.e. big IDE hard drives or a 6800 AGP video card, then your world won't end if you don't get these new techs. However, if you are building a new computer, there is not really much of a reason to avoid the new techs, with pricing the same, performance the same or better, and upgrade potential much better.
 

Thoreau

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Jan 11, 2003
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Originally posted by: Hajime
Mik3y: I wasn't talking about SLI, or graphic cards ;)

One phrase - Gigabit on PCI.

And let's not even get into 10gbit.

One more phrase - HDD bottleneck. Show me a hard drive that can push even one gigabit of data per second, and I'll show you my safe filled with three tons of solid gold bricks. =)

Edit: dammit, was beat to the punch. Anywho.. even with RAID, it's gonna take some pretty impressive arrays to saturate gigabit, let alone 10gb. None of which the average consumer needs, wants, or can afford. Even among enthusiasts, you're looking at very few people willing to go that far since to realize that kinda benefit, there would need to be another machine of equal or greater spec on the receiving end of the network connection, or a whole lot of smaller rigs. (Starting to sound more like enterprise computing)
 

uOpt

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Oct 19, 2004
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I found SATA to be a disappointment. PATA is fast enough and with two drives on one channel much more flexible in case you have to transfer data.

For now PCIe is a joke with no actual Ethernet or ATA controllers available, so all you get is less normal PCI slots. And the mainboard you can buy now do not allow you to deploy severl identical video cards, which would be my main reason to be interested.

Hyperthreading I found to be a joke initially but as my thread showed if you actually do a bus-intensive game int he forceground and some CPU-intensive thing in the background it is a huge improvement, so that's one positive item although much more limited than I thought, two CPU-intensive tasks ar not really seeing much improvement.

For non-overclockers Prescott is not a good choice given power consumption and sensitivity to code characteristics.

My AMD64 is precisely as fast for the dollar as my Pentium-4 2.8C for my performance-critical applications, so the speed didn't live up to the hype either.

Video cards are better off, my 5900XT was a nice buy.

Other positive surprises: CSA ethernet, that many boards including Socket 754 can take ECC RAM now, that AMD now ships good ventilators, takes less power and have a decent lever on the cooler, and these cheapo 5.1 soundcards which switch input plugs to output for 6-channel analog out. The variant on my Intel board also works with Linux out of the box, the ALC850 on my AMD board will need some time or extra nursing.
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: OS
Originally posted by: Hajime
Mik3y: I wasn't talking about SLI, or graphic cards ;)

One phrase - Gigabit on PCI.

And let's not even get into 10gbit.

This just moves the question over one step. How are you gonna saturate a gigabit ethernet connection seeing that even the fastest hard drives can't sustain 100+ mb/sec transfer?

Gigabit ethernet doesn't actually transfer data at 1 Gb/s, just as any other standard can't transfer data at it's theoretical limit. Real world Gb ethernet transfers peak around 50-60MB/s which is well within the capabilities of today's hard drives.

Hey, Thoreau, I can show you a whole lot of drives that can saturate a real world gigabit ethernet connection. Can I see your safe now?

My gripe revolves around being fed with the misinformation that they are faster by definition.

By who? By retailers, or the actual companies producing these products? If you blindly shop by bigger numbers on a spec sheet, you may get bit, but even a minimal amount of research on the consumer's part would make the truth pretty obvious.
 

Thoreau

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Jan 11, 2003
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Ever wonder why gigE caps out at around that speed? It *might* just have something to do with the hard drive bottleneck... as previously mentioned. And about gigE not transferring at its theoretical limit.. that is true. Even 10/100 never hit those numbers... but it certainly came a lot closer to its limit than gigE has so far. Take a couple managed switches, and run a gigE uplink between them. I guarantee that they can push a *LOT* more than 50-60MB/s between each other.