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Is a truly free market system actually a good thing?

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DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
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Voluntary trades yield the most production, because both sides have fear of loss to check their behavior. In some cases, we sacrifice quality/choice for convenience, like government roads over toll roads. But that's not a very good tradeoff for most things.

Some rules can be benign and worth the cost while others can be completely ridiculous. Most rules are actually created via big companies bribing so-called regulators to pass them because they know they will hurt competitors. That's right, who's regulating the regulators? They are just as greedy as everyone else. The more you accept the idea that someone should save you from your own choices, the more that's going to happen.

Things that could never be choices, such as murder and theft, are far easier to police than things that could. Because choice implies competition, and only a competing body would try and bribe an institution of force (the government) into preventing consumers from choosing competitors.

In cases where you see greed and rampant speculation causing problems, you'll want to look hard at government activity in that area and whether it offloaded risk onto the taxpayer, thereby creating a "win-win" gambling situation. It gets more complex when you realize that the problems of some regulations can be mitigated by other regulations. Glass-Steagall mitigated the problems created by FDIC insurance. Once you remove fear of loss from depositors and banks no longer have to compete on safety of deposits, it becomes necessary to limit what banks can do with those deposits. You can't just have one or the other, but when Clinton removed the restrictions and left FDIC alone, that's exactly what he did. Some socialists are more short-sighted than others.
+1

Nice post. :thumbsup:
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,991
9
81
"Truly free market system" as in one where all commerce is unregulated? No, I don't think it's an ideal system or even a good system.
 

Budarow2

Member
Sep 14, 2011
34
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Absolutely...as soon as EVERYONE makes only moral decisions (no lying, cheating, stealing, etc.) a totally free market will work well.

Until then...we need "govenment" forcing people to do the correct things for society's sake.

Problem is, the "government" is supposed to make only moral/ethical decisions, and since the govenment consists of people who are no better (and sometimes much worse) than anyone else...it doesn't work so well:eek:

I guess we're totally FUBAR going forward.
 

Abraxas

Golden Member
Oct 26, 2004
1,056
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No, absolutely not. We have seen what sort of lengths businesses will go to to get around regulations to pollute, exploit, and flat out steal, what do you think will happen when the gloves come off? No, the market is a powerful force, and like all powerful forces, it must be controlled and channeled to operate to maximum benefit, the proper tool for that being democracy.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
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No, absolutely not. We have seen what sort of lengths businesses will go to to get around regulations to pollute, exploit, and flat out steal, what do you think will happen when the gloves come off? No, the market is a powerful force, and like all powerful forces, it must be controlled and channeled to operate to maximum benefit, the proper tool for that being democracy.
Big businesses don't have to get around regulations when they help to write them in the first place. If you believe that you are being "protected" by regulations then you are sadly mistaken (e.g. recent mad cow problems in California).

Worse yet is that you don't even realize the negative side effects such regulations have on the cost of living and how these regulations allow businesses you speak of to monopolize their markets and divvy up who gets what while blocking out competition. Lastly you are under the false impression that businesses in a free market would be somehow compelled to kill off the consumer base which is false. If anything businesses stop caring about their consumers the moment government guarantees them profits and their position as monopoly in the market place (e.g. PG&E and CA, San Bruno explosion).
 

Abraxas

Golden Member
Oct 26, 2004
1,056
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Big businesses don't have to get around regulations when they help to write them in the first place. If you believe that you are being "protected" by regulations then you are sadly mistaken (e.g. recent mad cow problems in California).
Often they do, but not always. There were many laws passed by well intentioned bureaucrats that were circumvented by lawyers before they ever passed.
Worse yet is that you don't even realize the negative side effects such regulations have on the cost of living
No, I don't, I just consider that when a society is as productive as ours, we can afford to spend a little more to maintain our standard of material wealth if it means we keep the system fair, transparent, safe, and equitable.
and how these regulations allow businesses you speak of to monopolize their markets and divvy up who gets what while blocking out competition.
They can do that anyway. There is nothing about governments that enable a monopoly any more so than the businesses themselves.
Lastly you are under the false impression that businesses in a free market would be somehow compelled to kill off the consumer base which is false. If anything businesses stop caring about their consumers the moment government guarantees them profits and their position as monopoly in the market place (e.g. PG&E and CA, San Bruno explosion).
I am? I don't recall saying anything about anyone being killed.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
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Often they do, but not always. There were many laws passed by well intentioned bureaucrats that were circumvented by lawyers before they ever passed.
Well intentioned != Well thought or actually addressing the real reasons behind the issues they seek to alleviate. Furthermore often times these regulations are rightly challenged because they are so deeply flawed.

No, I don't, I just consider that when a society is as productive as ours, we can afford to spend a little more to maintain our standard of material wealth if it means we keep the system fair, transparent, safe, and equitable.

If what you stated was the at all factual then nations such as North Korea, the USSR and satellite states of old would of all been thriving economically with a high standard of living without a free market and China's ChiCom government would not of needed to of loosened it grasp on their market via free market economic reforms to be able to become a dominate power in today's economy.

Our standard of living is a direct result of the market place here in this nation being able to meet the needs of the consumer in a competitive environment where there are in some cases (not enough in others) losers and winners. Along with allowing businesses and consumers to make decisions on how much risk they are willing to bear or how much they are willing to pay to attain resources but it has nothing to do with regulations at all.

In addition over regulation is more apt to produce a higher cost of living and thus lower the actual standard of living.

They can do that anyway. There is nothing about governments that enable a monopoly any more so than the businesses themselves.
Monopolies can and do form on their own in a free market but they only stay competitive in the same free market so long as they can meet the needs and desires of the consumer and follow along the correct path of decision making which leads to their growth and continual profit generation while being left exposed and unprotected to continual competition from all sides of the market.

However this is extremely difficult to do over a very long period of time without such monopolies resorting to appealing to government for some intervention at some point because no one person or businesses entity could ever hope to make decisions that are 100% accurate and correct all the time in the market place.

In addition government via its own interference (via regulations, mandates, subsidies etc) can very well lead to the formation of a monopoly (or in many cases cartels) as large entities are able to weather the storm of regulations and they eventually gobble up small time players and thus increase their size and scope of power in the market place by leveraging their influence in government.

I am? I don't recall saying anything about anyone being killed.
You implied it when you stated that regulations somehow protect people from the "pollution, exploitation, theft" as if any business would continue to stay in business by behaving in a clear and open criminal fashion without first attaining the support of government itself to secure its continued existence.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,991
9
81
Monopolies can and do form on their own in a free market but they only stay competitive in the same free market so long as they can meet the needs and desires of the consumer and follow along the correct path of decision making which leads to their growth and continual profit generation while being left exposed and unprotected to continual competition from all sides of the market.
A monopoly can effectively stifle competition given enough resources, which a monopoly usually has.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,776
0
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I am? I don't recall saying anything about anyone being killed.
Don't waste your time man. These people read too many economics and math books and think it makes them a genius and that obviously an unregulated free market capitalist economy is the only way that people who aren't slaves can be properly motivated to succeed and do their best.

It's absurd and they will spew their textbook garbage, which has been proven to be a broken ideology to the point that their prophet has expressed that it is broken. Yet here they are, "capitalism is the bright shining pimple on God's ass and you fags will burn in Hell but don't ask or tell." It's a joke and I think most of them must be trolls or have problems with logic based deduction.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
29,108
3,087
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Is profit evil?

I see the left parroting this notion time and time again. Someone argue why a system completely devoid of any reason to produce goods or provide services other than kindness can work for a species which historically is not very kind?
Have you ever heard of (and understood) the notion of due respect? :rolleyes:

A not entirely "truly free market system" is not synonymous with a system with no provision for remuneration. Regard, consideration, fairness, due respect, protection, sustainability are things that must be protected and sometimes you can't trust the wolves to guard the henhouse.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,587
9
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Have you ever heard of (and understood) the notion of due respect? :rolleyes:

A not entirely "truly free market system" is not synonymous with a system with no provision for remuneration. Regard, consideration, fairness, due respect, protection, sustainability are things that must be protected and sometimes you can't trust the wolves to guard the henhouse.
What makes government wolves any more trustworthy than corporate wolves?
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,776
0
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What makes government wolves any more trustworthy than corporate wolves?
That is the point. Why do you trust the corporate wolves?

This whole country has made it clear they don't trust politician wolves, but why do so many cling to the tit of corporate wolves still? They both should be there to serve humanity and the civilization they operate in, yet neither seems concerned to do the jobs we vote and pay them to do.

We contact our reps and tell them no bailout and they do it anyways.

We make corporations into multi-billion dollar profit machines and they send our jobs to other countries.

The examples are endless and undeniable. Both have gotten too big for their britches and need a good ass kicking.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,017
571
126
That is the point. Why do you trust the corporate wolves?

This whole country has made it clear they don't trust politician wolves, but why do so many cling to the tit of corporate wolves still? They both should be there to serve humanity and the civilization they operate in, yet neither seems concerned to do the jobs we vote and pay them to do.

We contact our reps and tell them no bailout and they do it anyways.

We make corporations into multi-billion dollar profit machines and they send our jobs to other countries.

The examples are endless and undeniable. Both have gotten too big for their britches and need a good ass kicking.
The best way to kick the asses of corporate wolves are to let them fight each other. Capitalism does that far better than government regulation.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,776
0
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The best way to kick the asses of corporate wolves are to let them fight each other. Capitalism does that far better than government regulation.
Yes, but unregulated capitalism leads to predatory practices because we are a predatory race...it is how we survived and eventually became the dominant species on this rock. To ask people to evolve into giving a shit about each other all of the sudden when they have no reason to is a fool's errand.

When there are 90 sheep and 10 wolves the wolves are going to have a feast.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,587
9
81
That is the point. Why do you trust the corporate wolves?
I don't, but at least dealing with corporate wolves is voluntary. The only time I have to deal with a business against my will is... wait for it... when government demands that I do.

We contact our reps and tell them no bailout and they do it anyways.
That's not a corporate problem. Corporations don't have the right to extract money from my paycheck every two weeks. Only government has that right. And trust me, they make sure they take plenty to give to the wealthy.

We make corporations into multi-billion dollar profit machines and they send our jobs to other countries.

The examples are endless and undeniable. Both have gotten too big for their britches and need a good ass kicking.
I agree entirely. But massive corporations as a result of massive government. Without the special protections that corporations get such as limited liability thanks to government "regulation" corporations wouldn't have nearly the power they do now.

Corporations and regulation are like the brer rabbit. "Oh no, dont throw me in the briar patch!" Corporations love to complain about them because it makes for good sounds bites to the uninformed who think the regulation hurts corporate interests, and must therefore is in the publics interest. Really, the more complicated regulation gets the more entrenched the current powers get because they're the ones who write the regulation to begin with.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,587
9
81
Yes, but unregulated capitalism leads to predatory practices because we are a predatory race...it is how we survived and eventually became the dominant species on this rock. To ask people to evolve into giving a shit about each other all of the sudden when they have no reason to is a fool's errand.

When there are 90 sheep and 10 wolves the wolves are going to have a feast.
There are still 90 sheep and 10 wolves. But 5 of the wolves call themselves corporations while the other 5 call themselves government. The 5 government wolves exist to calm the sheep into believing they won't be eaten by the 5 corporate wolves, making it easier for all 10 wolves to pick and choose which sheep are the fattest and ready for the grill.
 

tcG

Golden Member
Jul 31, 2006
1,202
18
81
Another thing is that this devious, corporate-influenced regulation that BoberFett is talking about can't be anything but. There is no such thing as an unbiased, fair regulation. The problem is that when you grant a certain group of people called government such an enormous power as taxation or regulating business, this power is inevitably exploited by those unscrupulous members of society who seek to control others. The power itself leads to corruption. Democracy doesn't help write good regulations since the majority are stupid and easily fooled, and politicians are easily bought out and the system of elections is essentially rigged.

The solution is to not create a situation where a select group have massive control over the entire economy in the first place, i.e. to limit government.

But then won't the predatory capitalists just take everything over? No... competition prevents that. Businesses can't collude because they make more money by undercutting their competitors prices any time anybody tries to fix the market. The more competitors, the more difficult collusion is.
 
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cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,294
0
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The solution is to not create a situation where a select group have massive control over the entire economy in the first place, i.e. to limit government.
I agree. We must also recognize that people and markets aren't always rational, fair, or honest. And we must also realize that the nature of global capitalism is such that we simply can't let our economic well-being and future be run by foreign governments and NGOs, which is what would happen if our government severely "opted out" of the economy.

It's totally legitimate to argue modern governments have grown excessively large and they thereby limit economic growth and individual freedom. I do all the time. It's OK to complain about unresponsive bureaucracy, bad policy, and corrupt politicians... but we also take the existence of government so much for granted we sometimes forget how important it is, how difficult it was to create, and what the world would look like without it.
 

tcG

Golden Member
Jul 31, 2006
1,202
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The number of regulations on the books number in the millions, the regulatory bureaucracy is a multi-million dollar affair, tax rates for everybody are through the roof, and the government as a whole has been steadily growing in size since it's inception, while standards of living, at least for the past 50 or so years have been steadily declining. Any industry you look at is a morass of licensing, government compliance, quotas and tariffs. Yet we need MORE government?

Is labor was valued properly and the increases in standards of living afforded by technological innovations weren't gobbled up by excessive taxation and government thievery, it would be possible for somebody with minimal skills to work a 10 hour a week crappy job and have enough money to feed an entire family.
 
May 16, 2000
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The number of regulations on the books number in the millions, the regulatory bureaucracy is a multi-million dollar affair, tax rates for everybody are through the roof, and the government as a whole has been steadily growing in size since it's inception, while standards of living, at least for the past 50 or so years have been steadily declining. Any industry you look at is a morass of licensing, government compliance, quotas and tariffs. Yet we need MORE government?

Is labor was valued properly and the increases in standards of living afforded by technological innovations weren't gobbled up by excessive taxation and government thievery, it would be possible for somebody with minimal skills to work a 10 hour a week crappy job and have enough money to feed an entire family.
ROFLMAO.

How can someone as stupid as you even carry on autonomous functions, never mind work a computer???
 

nextJin

Golden Member
Apr 16, 2009
1,848
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Everyone who happens to be against free markets should read Human Action. Every argument being made here against the free market is covered plainly in the book. Rather than be insulted with no notable or meaningful replies other than rich people are evil I'll just leave it at that.
 

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