Is a server necessary?

Wiseguy69

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Jun 21, 2001
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My dad has a small CPA office with 2 computers. I had originally set it up with the main office acting as the server and the secretary's computer looking to the main office for files. I moved out of town for a year and some guy con'd my dad into a server based system. Now he has a P2-400 (slowest computer) as a server and the main office and sec's computer retrieving the files from the server. When I got back in town the actual programs were installed on the network drive but were SLOW. So I reinstalled the programs on the individual computers with the files saved on the server.

The Situation:

He wants to update his main computer from a P3 to a P4 or equivilant and move the P3 to the sec's office. He also wants to ensure a proper backup system (the one setup by this other guy doesn't work). I said that a RAID Array would give him up-to-date backups for hard disk failure and a DVD-RW would provide weekly off-site protection. My question is this: Should I do away with the "server" and upgrade his main office with a RAID capable mobo and host the client files from it? Really, is a dedicated server needed for an office that may have a total of 3 computers? What are the advantages?
 

xenos500

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Jul 22, 2003
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yea, I like the idea of a server.... but not if the server is just an out of date desktop.

Either get a nice workstation for your dad and tack some server duties onto it....kinda blah

or set up an actual server, with an actual server OS.


At one point I had 4 servers at my home....for only 7 computers (one for each of 5 family members and two wireless laptops)
That was pretty crazy so I just got one really good server.

I would look for a used compaq proliant (1600, 2500 are good entrylevel servers)

The plan:
build your dad a $500 P4, give the P3 to the secratary, Give the P2 away.
Get a proliant 1600 with 4 SCSI drives on RAID5, a boot drive and a tape drive, slap windows 2000 server on it and call it a server.


 

Nothinman

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Sep 14, 2001
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I said that a RAID Array would give him up-to-date backups

RAID is NOT a backup. A backup can be used to restore files in many more situations than just if a drive fails. Say a file is overwritten or deleted by accident? Now you have to go to the weekly backups and start over from ~7 days ago.

Programs should be installed locally, but important data should be on a server with a backup rotation. The speed of the server isn't important (to an extent) if it's setup properly as it'll be more limited by network and disk bandwidth than anything else.
 

Nothinman

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Sep 14, 2001
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It's just a bad idea to let people use servers for day to day activities, who know what they'll do with it. You already have the box and probably the software, why are you so against it? If the guy who set it up in the first place didn't fill the box with pirated software there's no extra cost and it gives you ability to automate a lot of things for them.
 

JackMDS

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Oct 25, 1999
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Regardless of Computer considerations, as a CPA your father has Legal responsibility concerning the Data of his clients. Running an Inadequate Computer system is not going to help in case there is professional trouble.

You do not keep the main business files on individual computers it is not consider safe.

You need a solid server with professional Tape backup (or similar solid storage). Backup has to be daily updated for added and changed files, and once a week total server backup.

 

Nothinman

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Sep 14, 2001
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Yea, I doubt "I'm sorry, your taxes for last year got emailed to all of my other clients because of a new security hole in IE so it's not my fault." would go over very well.

And I doubt you'd like to get a call sounding like "My secretary accidentally deleted Mr. Jones' tax forms that we filled out yesterday so it's not been backed up to DVD-RW yet, how do I work the backup part of this RAID array you gave me?".
 

Bleep

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Oct 9, 1999
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RAID is NOT a backup. A backup can be used to restore files in many more situations than just if a drive fails.

This is the key reply to your posts!! If you dont know by now that raid is not a backup system you should not be messing with important business processes. Automatic backup to a seperate machine and drive every day is absolutly essential and maybe even backup documents to a cd or something or even a second drive in the machine, have you ever been at the end of a large document that has taken 2 to 3 hours of work and the darn program crashes and you have lost all your work?

Bleep
 

Wiseguy69

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Jun 21, 2001
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
It's just a bad idea to let people use servers for day to day activities, who know what they'll do with it. You already have the box and probably the software, why are you so against it? If the guy who set it up in the first place didn't fill the box with pirated software there's no extra cost and it gives you ability to automate a lot of things for them.

I'm not against it but we don't have any software, only Windows XP Pro. That's all this guy did... install XP Pro and connect the computers. He had the server hosting the complete program and it was SLOW. It took me two days to re-install the tax and accounting software to each of the two PC's. I'm only asking questions here, I'm not going to sell him on a $1000 investment without knowing the disadvantages and advantages of it. If anyone finds my little inquiry annoying, don't comment. I especially take exception to the reminder of the "legal responsibilies" of a CPA. He knows his job, he's been doing it for quite some time now. We are fully aware of his responsibilities to his clients. Besides the fact that not every CPA or accountant uses a freakin server in their office... in fact, most don't. The worst that could happen is that he would have to revert back to the weekly backup. Something he has been fully aware of for years. A large annoyance... yes, a legal problem... no.

So if there is anyone out there that just wants to simply answer my questions and help me out, this is what I've picked from this thread so far and where I stand...

Upgrade him to a P4 or Athlon
Sec gets the P3
The P2-400 remains the server (we're keeping the server to prevent potential user mistakes, blunders, inadvertant keystrokes... etc.)

Now, am I right that ideally it should be setup so that the tape drive backs up every night and then does a full server backup every weekend?

Would a Re-writeable DVD would work properly also. Does it provide the same functionality? I see that the DRU-510A comes with backup software.

How about this? Would backing up to a second hard drive be more efficient? This could be done nightly plus a drive image every weekend to the second hard drive. Plus, he would then be able to use the DVD writer to do a fast backup on Friday afternoon for off-site storage. That is where I think that the DVD becomes more useful than the tape, the backup wouldn't take too long, he could start the backup before leaving and take it home that night.

Is my thinking here correct?

This is the key reply to your posts!! If you dont know by now that raid is not a backup system you should not be messing with important business processes.

Keep the judgemental comments to yourself. I never said that RAID was a backup "system" but merely a way to protect against drive failure. Which is correct, you punk. I'm trying to help the man out here and get the correct info first rather than entrust him with someone like the last idiot that was in his office. If he is comfortable with a weekly backup then the "My secretary accidentally deleted Mr. Jones' tax forms that we filled out yesterday so it's not been backed up to DVD-RW yet" is something that he'll have to be willing to risk. If not, we'll ensure its done nightly. Its guys like you and the others that people don't ask before doing, because you get smartass answers to an honest question. You guys sound like car mechanics.



 

Nothinman

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Sep 14, 2001
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I'm not against it but we don't have any software, only Windows XP Pro. That's all this guy did... install XP Pro and connect the computers

Well that's all you'd do with Win2K Server too, with only 2 clients Pro would be fine.

He had the server hosting the complete program and it was SLOW

Unless the program is really small that's dumb. But even so we run a few of our in house apps from server's so they can update the executables whenver they need to and only the startup time is slow, the actual usage of the app is fine.

I'm not going to sell him on a $1000 investment without knowing the disadvantages and advantages of it.

I doubt $1K is even needed, if they already bought XP Pro for the server use it. It has a 10 client limit, but you're way under that.

I especially take exception to the reminder of the "legal responsibilies" of a CPA. He knows his job, he's been doing it for quite some time now. We are fully aware of his responsibilities to his clients. Besides the fact that not every CPA or accountant uses a freakin server in their office... in fact, most don't.

Just because all the other CPAs don't do it doesn't mean it's not a good idea. If I was his client and he lost my information because he could only go back a full week I'd be pissed, but maybe that's just me.

What I want to know is why he needs the hardware upgrade? If he's been using the software for a year on the current machine why the change? I'm very much behind tht idea that "if it's not broke, don't fix it" and I really doubt he needs a P4 to do people's taxes. If he just thinks it's time because the box is old talk him out of it, because it's pretty unlikely it's necessary. I don't know what the secretary has, maybe she really does need something faster and that would be a valid reason to give him the new one and give her the better hand-me-down.

Now, am I right that ideally it should be setup so that the tape drive backs up every night and then does a full server backup every weekend?

If the data set fits on one tape you could run full's every night, it's a judgement call. The differnce would be that with incrementals you'd have to restore from the previous weekend full then any incrementals depending on what data needs restored so it might be simpler just to have fulls run every night.

Would a Re-writeable DVD would work properly also. Does it provide the same functionality? I see that the DRU-510A comes with backup software.

Possibly. I saw an article a while back that tested some CDRs and found they weren't readable after I think 2 years of storage, I'm not sure if DVD-R discs are affected though. Again it depends on how far back you might need to go for data.

If RAID is not a backup technique, then what is the use of mirroring?

It's a high availability feature, it keeps the machine running and data available in the event of a disk failure. If one disk goes you can keep using the good one until a replacement for the bad one arrives, if you don't have a mirror you end up driving to CompUSA to get a replacement and restoring a lot of data.

My thinking is this... if you mirror the drive and backup weekly and one client's file is deleted, misplaced, corrupted or otherwise rendered unuseable, we retrieve the backup from the DVD.

My thinking is this, if I need a file restored I'd rather have last nights backup than last weeks so I have less work to do.

Except... if a whole portion of the directory, etc. is deleted somehow, that would be mirrored also, possibly losing info for more than one client on both drives. Is that correct?

Yes everything is mirrored, so any changes are mirrored instantaneously.

Then I see the need for nightly backups... and if we do nightly backups, a tape drive would be better than a DVD. Am I right? Or can a RW DVD do nightly's also?

Tapes are more expensive but they last longer and can hold more.

Would backing up to a second hard drive be more efficient?

It would be faster, but if the backup is unatteneded that shouldn't be a concern unless the backup starts taking so long it's running during the day and I doubt that would happen because even our NetWare server's at working backing up ~100G don't take that long to put on SDLT. But then you also only have as many backups as you have drives, unless you have software that backs up to named directories or something so you can have multiple backups on one disk.

This could be done nightly plus a drive image every weekend to the second hard drive

If it's a standalone server a regular image of the system drive won't be too important, unless someone's changing things on it constantly which shouldn't happen. 1 image of it once it's setup and configured would probably be enough.

Plus, he would then be able to use the DVD writer to do a fast backup on Friday afternoon for off-site storage. That is where I think that the DVD becomes more useful than the tape, the backup wouldn't take too long, he could start the backup before leaving and take it home that night.

If the tape backups are configured and scheduled he could just get into a routine of changing the tapes in the morning and taking one of them, say monday morning from the full that ran sunday night, off site. If he already has the DVD-R or the tape drive I would say go with that one, because there's no reason to buy one if you already have the other. The only real advantage I see for the DVD-R is the fact that it can be read in most machines with DVD drives (I say most because they're not ubiquitous, I know for a fact my notebook DVD drive won't read DVD+R discs but will read DVD-R discs, it's hit and miss) which could be handy in a pinch.
 

Wiseguy69

Senior member
Jun 21, 2001
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THANK YOU! That's what I'm lookin for.


Just because all the other CPAs don't do it doesn't mean it's not a good idea. If I was his client and he lost my information because he could only go back a full week I'd be pissed, but maybe that's just me.

Actually, the amount of work done to an individual client per week is minimal. Its the compound product over a few years that is valuable. So a weekly backup is really all he would need unless he is doing a tax return which is where a lot of work goes into one person in a day. Most of the year, a client would never know if a system failure happened. That's not to say that a daily backup would not be beneficial.

What I want to know is why he needs the hardware upgrade? If he's been using the software for a year on the current machine why the change? I'm very much behind tht idea that "if it's not broke, don't fix it" and I really doubt he needs a P4 to do people's taxes. If he just thinks it's time because the box is old talk him out of it, because it's pretty unlikely it's necessary. I don't know what the secretary has, maybe she really does need something faster and that would be a valid reason to give him the new one and give her the better hand-me-down.

The secretay's computer is a P2-300. I know I said the server was slowest... but that's not true. Her computer is entirely too slow with everything. That is why he would upgrade his to a P4 and give her the P3. I'm with you on the "If it ain't broke" idea but hers is unbearable.

Thank you for the insight.