Is a G4560 "sub-standard" for gaming? Was it, at the beginning of the year? (Before CFL)

[VirtualLarry]

Just curious what some people think.

Friend of mine, whom I sold what I thought was a decent 1080P gaming rig, if a bit budget, with a G4560 and 16GB DDR4 and a GTX950 2GB GDDR5 card, a Z170 mobo, a Blu-Ray drive, and a 240GB SSD. I sold him that for $600, including a valid copy of Windows 10. (Payable in 24 monthly installments of $25/mo. He doesn't have a big budget, and I understand.)

I was mostly trying to improve his computing experience, because he's currently using an Athlon II X4 640 3.0Ghz quad-core. The G4560 is 3X ST, and 2X MT performance, according to CPU-Z. Even though it's only a dual-core (with HT).

Now, since the G4560 was released, there have been countless YouTube videos and whatnot reviews made of that little wunder-chip (basically, an i3 for half the price). It was so popular that it spawned shortages, and massive price-gouging on ebay ($100+ for it, when the G4600, the next CPU up the stack, was still under $90).

Anyways, my friend, whom I offered a couple of weeks ago to take the machine back for a full refund, since he has yet to use it, started complaining that it was sub-standard and obsolete.

I'm like, "It's a perfectly valid 1080P gaming platform".

It seems he's never happy. I mean, I feel like I already gave him a "deal", on it, especially with the payment plan, but ... I'm not sure what to do, at this point. He could have gotten a refund, now he's complaining.

Sure, I can build him a $3000 rig, which is what I imagine what a top-end rig would cost these days, but he doesn't have nearly the money for something like that.

It's not like the PC isn't heavily upgradable. It will take Skylake and Kaby Lake CPUs, including the highest unlocked i7 CPUs. i7-7700K is still no slouch. I mean, if he wants that, and a GTX1070ti, fine, he pays for it, and I'll install it. But it seems like he thinks that I'll upgrade it just because he complains it's sub-standard.

Edit: Back to technical issues, the G4560 will scale to a GTX1080, as shown by HardwareUnboxed YT videos of that time, they did some GPU scaling ones. The G4560 is deceptively scalable. Then again, I've seen other videos, that showed that the user had to limit framerate on GTA V to avoid stuttering, to something like 40FPS. Unsure what GPU or what settings they were using. And BF1 64-player online matches were pretty-much out. And WD2 was an issue, but it could play Witcher 3, for suitably smaller values of "play".

 

[VirtualLarry]

Now, I know that @Sonikku has a G4560 Gaming rig with a GTX1050ti 4GB GDDR5 card in it.

If you have any gaming experiences to comment on, I'd like to hear them. Maybe I could point some things out to my friend. Is it "sub-standard"? Or is it OK for med/high 1080P gaming, with a few notable (GTA V, BF1 64-player) exceptions?

Friend originally wanted to play KI, and then Tekken 7. So he bought the gaming PC. Then he bought a PS4, because he wanted the PSN match-making with all of his PSN buddies.

AFAIK, both KI and T7PC are OK as far as rig specs go for gaming.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

It's a perfectly legit system, and $600 isn't terrible.

Never extend credit. Cash, in full. If he needs money he can get a loan.

(Individual) people suck.

 

[Sonikku]

Now, I know that @Sonikku has a G4560 Gaming rig with a GTX1050ti 4GB GDDR5 card in it.

Which you gave me. And I am eternally grateful for.

If you have any gaming experiences to comment on, I'd like to hear them. Maybe I could point some things out to my friend. Is it "sub-standard"? Or is it OK for med/high 1080P gaming, with a few notable (GTA V, BF1 64-player) exceptions?

Friend originally wanted to play KI, and then Tekken 7. So he bought the gaming PC. Then he bought a PS4, because he wanted the PSN match-making with all of his PSN buddies.

AFAIK, both KI and T7PC are OK as far as rig specs go for gaming.

I would hardly describe it as sub standard. For most games it can manage Medium no problem at 1080p. On WoW it can do High. Though I haven't played Tekken, is it at all possible his calling the PC sub standard and attempting to get a refund is a way for him to offload the losses of his initial platform choice mistake back onto you?

 

[VirtualLarry]

is it at all possible his calling the PC sub standard and attempting to get a refund is a way for him to offload the losses of his initial platform choice mistake back onto you?

I guess, although I'm actually the one who approached him about a refund opportunity, since he hadn't even hooked the PC up in like 8 months since starting to make payments, for whatever reason.

 

[UsandThem]

Why not offer the person to switch out the G4560, and replace it with something with a little more juice. You should be able to sell the G4560, and charge them the additional difference.

PCs are no different than any other electronics like cell phones, TVs, or cars. There's always something that "better" as the constant bombardment of ads tell us. But if they haven't even turned on the PC you sold them, I don't understand how they think it could be slow, or under-powered.

 

[VirtualLarry]

New Why not offer the person to switch out the G4560, and replace it with something with a little more juice. You should be able to sell the G4560, and charge them the additional difference.

I'll let him know that I'm perfectly willing to do that. Not sure what he can afford, though. That's probably the bigger issue.

I think that this is really about an excuse not to join the PCMR, but just slink back to his console buddies.

PCs are no different than any other electronics like cell phones, TVs, or cars. There's always something that "better" as the constant bombardment of ads tell us. But if they haven't even turned on the PC you sold them, I don't understand how they think it could be slow, or under-powered.

I finally came over and hooked it up to his 39" or 43" 1080P LCD TV, and I thought that it looked pretty snazzy.

I think that he's more pissed off that his GTX950 2GB card is only "mining" less than $0.50/day.

Whereas, mine is a little bit more. But I've got more machines going, and my video cards were like $150 and $310. His was $120.

 

[Campy]

I mean if he's on an entry level budget, what does he expect? You gave him a good machine, and as you said he could plop in a 1060 or 1070 and it would be an amazing gaming machine. Add a 6700k or 7700k aswell and it's a high end gaming rig that will last for years. If he doesn't want it, take it back and give him a refund, and find a proper home for the machine.

 

[VirtualLarry]

So I should be able to tell him in confidence that it's not :"sub-par", just "entry-level"? I mean, that's what I told him when I sold it to him, based on my understandings of many YouTube videos about these rigs, that it was essentially an entry-level PC gaming solution, that it was capable of 1080P gaming on AAA titles, but just at Med. and sometimes High.

Dropping in a 1060 6GB card might make it able to run on High / Ultra @ 1080P on some games, but ... that's still another $300 for the card alone. Don't think that he would go for that.

He's unhappy that he's got "minimum" specs for games. He wants "recommended" for all new games, which, is, sadly, around a $2000 gaming rig, I think. (7700K, 16GB DDR4, GTX1080(ti), etc.)

He doesn't think any game is playable, if it's not 60FPS locked. Which, ironically, his console games arent't always either.

 

[Sonikku]

His console is basically never 60fps, they're almost always half of that. You may wish to remind him that his PS4 games only run in 30fps and are plenty playable.

 

[VirtualLarry]

His console is basically never 60fps, they're almost always half of that. You may wish to remind him that his PS4 games only run in 30fps and are plenty playable.

I was going to mention that many console games secretly use "resolution scaling", then I remembered from the ARSTechnica review of Tekken 7 PC, that the PC version has the same option, and can be used to run at 60FPS, on moderate hardware.

Edit: Now that I think about that, I think that when I described "PC settings" on games, he felt intimidated by that, because you don't really get to choose resolution or scaling or detail settings on console games. It's basically whatever the developers decide on.

 

[pandemonium]

He needs to try it before he makes any sort of decision. I wouldn't bend over any more than you already have.

That CPU is definitely capable for a mediocre rig. This guy has convinced himself of something he knows nothing about.

 

[whm1974]

@VirtualLarry Why in Hell is your friend not using the system you sold him? It is more powerful then the older system he is still using. And I can't see what he complaining about, what he is expecting for $600?

 

[coercitiv]

Anyways, my friend, whom I offered a couple of weeks ago to take the machine back for a full refund, since he has yet to use it, started complaining that it was sub-standard and obsolete.

Your friend is bargaining, it has nothing to do with the real value of the machine in question. He wants to pay less for the system that is already in his possession. This is not about getting better hardware.

In case you and your friend both don't realize, the actual sale price of the system was not $600, but rather $500. The rest of the value was the loan. Let's make a quick list of the parts he bought with rounded up "bargain" prices relative to current market:

CPU $50
MB $75
RAM $100
GPU $75
SSD $75
BD $25
OS $50
---------
Total $450

If you included any other parts in the build you sold him (case, PSU, anything), the cost will quickly go over 500. This list doesn't even factor in the time you spent assembling the system.

Insist (politely) on taking the system back for a refund. Don't try to justify the price or relevance of the system in the current market. If your friend is of good faith the deal will go back to the old terms.

 

[XavierMace]

that it was capable of 1080P gaming on AAA titles, but just at Med. and sometimes High.
...
He doesn't think any game is playable, if it's not 60FPS locked. Which, ironically, his console games arent't always either.

Ehhhhh. On a GTX950? I think that may have been a bit optimistic. 60fps isn't an unreasonable expectation for a gaming computer, especially if he's an FPS guy. That's generally considered a reason to move from consoles to PC's. When the card came out 2 years ago, there were already several games it couldn't even keep over 30fps at 1080p. A 1060 would be a sizable step up. A 1050ti wouldn't be a big step up, but it would get him over the 60fps mark in the games you mention at 1080p (medium).

With that said, I also wouldn't take the computer back. If he came back unhappy in a couple of weeks, maybe. 8 months? Hell no. Especially if this is the same "friend" you've mentioned previously. Off the top of my head your price looks reasonable, you were incredibly generous with his payment plan, and if this is the same friend you've mentioned before you've been very generous to him in the past too. But, assuming he's still making payments and it's not "paid off", that could be problematic.

This is why you've been recommended caution about selling "gaming" rigs. GM ran into the same issue with the new Stingrays. They're "track ready" up until they start overheating on the track. Some people had a problem with that.

 

[whm1974]

Your friend is bargaining, it has nothing to do with the real value of the machine in question. He wants to pay less for the system that is already in his possession. This is not about getting better hardware.

In case you and your friend both don't realize, the actual sale price of the system was not $600, but rather $500. The rest of the value was the loan. Let's make a quick list of the parts he bought with rounded up "bargain" prices relative to current market:

CPU $50
MB $75
RAM $100
GPU $75
SSD $75
BD $25
OS $50
---------
Total $450

If you included any other parts in the build you sold him (case, PSU, anything), the cost will quickly go over 500. This list doesn't even factor in the time you spent assembling the system.

Insist (politely) on taking the system back for a refund. Don't try to justify the price or relevance of the system in the current market. If your friend is of good faith the deal will go back to the old terms.

Issues like this is one of the reasons I will not build a rig for most people. Having to deal with crap such as this also why is less worthwhile to put together systems for other people.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Well, the parts list is more like this:
G4560 CPU $65
16GB DDR4 $110
Z170 Pro4 $85
240GB SSD $60
BD-RE $40
RaidMax Cobra ATX case $50
RaidMax 730W modular PSU $50
MSI GTX950 2GB GDDR5 $120
Windows $50

total: $630

I gave him a slight discount, because the case and mobo were slightly used, everything else was brand new.

Also, the payments are even more reasonable than they appear. This friend always used to (weekly, pretty-much) bug me for tech support. So I drew up a tech-support plan, up to 10 hours a month, for $15/mo. I got him to agree to that, and then I thought about trying to get him a new PC, so I asked him if he could afford $25/mo, and I would sell him the gaming PC, and throw in the tech-support.

As for the GTX950, well, I had a few of them, and from some YT vids, it appeared that those cards were roughly equivalent in performance to a GTX1050 2GB card, which is no slouch, although it may not always hit 60FPS, whereas a GTX1050ti may, in the same situation.

I can look into getting him a GTX1060, would you recommend a 3GB or 6GB card? I know a 6GB is more future-proof, but it's also... more expensive. Or should I look for a GTX1070ti?

Edit: Then again, now you can get this for $700:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=13N-0059-00002&cm_sp=Homepage_FDD-_-P1_13N-0059-00002-_-11012017

Edit: Or this $596 i3-7100 / GTX1050ti build kit:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.3555848

 

[XavierMace]

I said a GTX1060 would be an upgrade. I did not say YOU should get him one. The 1050ti isn't a big difference, except it's a 4Gb card. So in texture heavy games like GTA:V, that can make a bit of a difference. This guy is an adult. You've already gone above and beyond helping him. If he wants to upgrade the video card, he can buy it himself.

 

[whm1974]

I said a GTX1060 would be an upgrade. I did not say YOU should get him one. The 1050ti isn't a big difference, except it's a 4Gb card. So in texture heavy games like GTA:V, that can make a bit of a difference. This guy is an adult. You've already gone above and beyond helping him. If he wants to upgrade the video card, he can buy it himself.

Larry's friend should start actually using the system he was sold as it would be faster then his old system. And quite trying on getting a better deal from Larry, he can't.

Does his old system even have a SSD?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Does his old system even have a SSD?

Amazingly, yes, it does. I hooked him up with a 30GB SSD and Windows 7 64-bit, when he got his quad-core Athlon II X4. Then a few years later, we upgraded it with a 120GB SSD. He could maybe use a bigger / newer one. The new Gaming Rig has a 240GB fairly fast one in it.

 

[whm1974]

Amazingly, yes, it does. I hooked him up with a 30GB SSD and Windows 7 64-bit, when he got his quad-core Athlon II X4. Then a few years later, we upgraded it with a 120GB SSD. He could maybe use a bigger / newer one. The new Gaming Rig has a 240GB fairly fast one in it.

I would consider a ~256GB SSD to be the bare minimum size for a modern system now. especially for a Windows system. If he wanted a better gaming system then he have should have built it himself, and replaced Windows with Linux and used the money saved to get a newer and better dGPU.

 

[fastamdman]

Only option I see is having him either honor the original deal or taking back the system for a full refund, no exceptions. You can tell him that he can upgrade the parts for an even faster computer, but that it's already faster than what he had, you paid MORE for the parts than what you sold it to him for, you've spent to much time with helping in on random stuff etc. The time alone isn't worth what you are getting out of it, friend or not. He's just trying to get something more for nothing because you are to nice to your "friends". Tell him to actually use the machine for a few months and to rethink it over. Or just do a refund for the system and call it quits. This sounds like a deal where he will stop making payments and keep the pc anyway. I wouldn't trust it.

 

[whm1974]

I think Larry is going to end up refunding his and taking the computer back. Even if he turns around and manages to sell it to someone else, I"m afraid he will have to take a lose here.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Thinking, maybe, of offering my friend my RX 470 4GB card, for $320, and refunding him $120 for his current card, thus a difference of $200. He'll be making $1.30-1.50/day with NiceHash, and I'll be collecting from him for another 8 months.

Edit: Seems prices have come down. XFX 4GB RX 570 at BestBuy on ebay for $249.99, 8GB RX 580 for $289.99. Guess I'll have to match that.

 

[Insomniator]

Why are you dealing with any of this? Why are you taking back a machine that has depreciated for a full refund? I don't care if your friend through it into a wood chipper... it has nothing to do with you.

That PC was fine for 600 bucks 8 months ago, its not your problem he's broke and can't afford a better one.