Irony of PC game developer discontent with Windows 8

[maniacalpha1-1]

From an article at techradar:
http://www.techradar.com/us/news/so...-8-is-not-awesome-for-blizzard-either-1090430

In a post on Kotaku, Brad Wardell, president and CEO of Stardock (known for Sins of Solar Empire and OfficeDock) discussed his beef with Windows 8.
Most of Wardell's gripes stem from what he described as the central confusion of Windows 8 - that it's been half-developed for desktops and half-developed for tablets.
"It tries to be both," said Wardell, "and neither."

I just think this quote from Brad Wardell is very ironic. PC game development has, in the past few years, been vastly affected by multiplatform development to also include consoles, causing long-existing PC game franchises to change, streamline, "lower thresholds", etc. And so there's a certain irony in the fact that on PC game forums you can hear talk about consoles and here we have a game dev complaining about Microsoft catering to tablets in almost identical terms.

I'm not totally blaming this on consoles, even if there weren't consoles, game devs would still be "lowering thresholds", though perhaps not to the same extent that they are. For example, I just think it's quite funny that pre-BC2 Battlefield vets complain about EA's decisions for BC2 and beyond, PS1 vets complain about SOE in PS2(though for those willing to play futuristic, PS2 makes up quite nicely for the changes to Battlefield), and I predict that Everquest 1 vets will complain about EQ 3/EQ Next whenever it comes(even if it's PC only, as I say, this isn't only about consoles). And so NOW, we have devs understanding what it's like, and complaining about Microsoft in the same way many gamers complain about the game devs. Of course, it's not THAT funny considering that this will ultimately hurt the end gamer...

Note, I only used EQ, Planetside and Battlefield as examples since that's what I'm familiar with, undoubtedly veterans of other franchises all throughout the gaming world could say similar things. And, I myself am HAPPY with Planetside 2, but I made that example from the standpoint of a PS1 vet who is not happy.

 

[0___________0]

I never understand why devs are saying that Windows 8 is horrible for gaming. Once you start the game you're not interfacing with the Win 8 UI anymore. So what if you start the game from a tile on Metro? Once the game is running it will run the same as it does on Windows 7. There really is no difference. I don't really care one way or another about the UI deal, but to say that Windows 8 is going to have a negative affect on gaming, I find that absurd. Everyone is going to make games the exact same way they did before, people are just going to launch them differently.

Both Stardock and Valve could receive competition from Microsoft's new app store or whatever they have in Win 8, which is where I think their hatred for it stems from. If Microsoft had used the Metro UI from the inception of their UI, had there never been a start button, no one would have cared.

 

[wuliheron]

Kotaku is so infamous for sensationalizing everything and outright blatant lies you'd swear they would sell XXX videos of their own mothers if they could. You might as well post a headline from the World Weekly News.

 

[Gothgar]

Kotaku for news, el oh el

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

The article is from TechRadar, they only happened to quote a Kotaku article. And even if we factor this particular quote out because it ultimately came from Kotaku, GabeN and many other devs have been complaining. That they are complaining is simply a factual matter.

And besides, the point is not whether or not the game developer complaints are legitimate or justified, but simply the irony that they are now bitching at Microsoft the same way many of us bitch at them. I myself have no complaints about windows 8 yet as I have not tried it. If they offer it cheaper than the Win 7 Home Premium OEM was I might grab it for my next build(except I'm kinda hoping to build sooner than late October).

 

[wuliheron]

The article is from TechRadar, they only happened to quote a Kotaku article. And even if we factor this particular quote out because it ultimately came from Kotaku, GabeN and many other devs have been complaining. That they are complaining is simply a factual matter.

And besides, the point is not whether or not the game developer complaints are legitimate or justified, but simply the irony that they are now bitching at Microsoft the same way many of us bitch at them. I myself have no complaints about windows 8 yet as I have not tried it. If they offer it cheaper than the Win 7 Home Premium OEM was I might grab it for my next build(except I'm kinda hoping to build sooner than late October).

The article itself admits Newell and the others are not talking about the specific reasons they are complaining about windows 8. My own guess is they're afraid with MS going into the tablet business they're going to follow in Apple's footsteps and push customers to use their app store to download games for tablets and phones and charge developers 30% to sell their games in their app store.

That might sound odd to some, but Tablets and smartphones are the fastest growing segment of the market and Asus just demonstrated a tablet that produces a really smooth 35fps using the Unreal 3 engine. That's just a beginning too with Intel's upcoming Haswell chip rumored to have up to 5 times the graphics punch of it's current offerings thanks to adding a ton of ram using a transposer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLk5-qN1Rhc

There are even advances like flexible displays you can roll up and stick in your pocket and the Oculus Rift in the works that could bring a whole new meaning to portable gaming.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

How long will it be before tablets/laptops or other portable devices are so powerful that they can run any game and there is no technical need to have a PC, you would only need a mouse/keyboard and monitor or oculus rift VR goggles to transform a little tablet into a powerful game machine?

Er...I guess the question that has to be asked is, what kind of resolution can those oculus rifts run at and how powerful of a GPU is needed to be on the tablet? Can those ORs be made wireless?

Also, what alternatives to keyboard and mouse are in the works, if any?

 

[0___________0]

How long will it be before tablets/laptops or other portable devices are so powerful that they can run any game and there is no technical need to have a PC, you would only need a mouse/keyboard and monitor or oculus rift VR goggles to transform a little tablet into a powerful game machine?

Even if you could develop a suitable replacement for a keyboard and mouse, which I don't see happening, a tablet will never perform on par with a modern gaming rig. The PC has a PSU that can supply far more power to run a GPU than a battery in a tablet, it has the space to contain it, and the ability to cope with heat output. And as long as hardware capability increases, the game engines will use it. You won't be rendering the latest Battlefield or Crysis game on your tablet.

You can put more powerful components into a PC, gamers and devs aren't going to regress to worse technology just for the sake of playing on a tablet.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

Even if you could develop a suitable replacement for a keyboard and mouse, which I don't see happening, a tablet will never perform on par with a modern gaming rig. The PC has a PSU that can supply far more power to run a GPU than a battery in a tablet, it has the space to contain it, and the ability to cope with heat output. And as long as hardware capability increases, the game engines will use it. You won't be rendering the latest Battlefield or Crysis game on your tablet.

You can put more powerful components into a PC, gamers and devs aren't going to regress to worse technology just for the sake of playing on a tablet.

What I meant was, someday, won't we reach a point where there is simply no benefit to making graphics more resolute/detailed, etc, where the physics doesn't need to get more complicated, and even though the hardware continues to improve, game design standards stay at a fixed point?

Although on the point of physics processing...I'm thinking that with VR goggles, and depending on what controllers could be devised, actual manipulation of small objects could become possible. Can you imagine a flight simulator where you reach out and push buttons?

 

[Red Hawk]

The developer quoted doesn't even do development for consoles. Stardock is a PC-exclusive developer.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

The developer quoted doesn't even do development for consoles. Stardock is a PC-exclusive developer.

Yes, but he's still complaining about changes windows is making for tablets. The parallel here is gamer complaints about games changing for consoles, parallel to his complaints that windows 8 is changing for tablets.

 

[dagamer34]

What I really dislike is that game developers aren't actually complaining about Windows 8, they are complaining about the Windows Store. And it's not so much game developers that are complaining, but game distributors. No one likes more competition.

I think ACTUAL game developers would be happy to gain easy distribution on the world's largest platform with one-click purchases while requiring almost zero infrastructure support. A 30% cut is rather generous considering you don't have to deal with any of the other crap involved in shipping a game. Heck, a development studio no longer needs a publisher to put their game on the market!

As for the silliness that desktop will go away or Microsoft will require approval of all games released for the desktop (again, pure silliness), the EU would come down on them so hard that the fine would single handedly finance the recovery of Greece.

 

[wuliheron]

How long will it be before tablets/laptops or other portable devices are so powerful that they can run any game and there is no technical need to have a PC, you would only need a mouse/keyboard and monitor or oculus rift VR goggles to transform a little tablet into a powerful game machine?

Er...I guess the question that has to be asked is, what kind of resolution can those oculus rifts run at and how powerful of a GPU is needed to be on the tablet? Can those ORs be made wireless?

Also, what alternatives to keyboard and mouse are in the works, if any?

The Oculus uses what is essentially a cellphone display and next year they intend to experiment with up to 4k resolutions. However, resolution in an Oculus is not a simple affair and that's not what you would see. First off the screen is divided in half for each eye, it has fisheye lenses that distort the image making the screen look larger, and they intentionally feed higher resolution textures towards the center of the screen so it only has to produce them right where you will notice the most.

It isn't even a product on the market yet so it's hard to say how long it will take to make all the progress you could want, but certainly there is no reason it can't eventually run off even a smartphone. For the immediate future though a laptop is probably about as good as it is going to get for anything other than older games. Not so much because of the resolution, but because it requires 120fps and low latencies.

As for controls, you can point a gun wherever you turn your head or use gesture controls or a keyboard and mouse or whatever. Probably the best controls for it right now is the Razer Hydra. Deadly accurate and you just hold one control in each hand.

 

[BladeVenom]

What I really dislike is that game developers aren't actually complaining about Windows 8, they are complaining about the Windows Store. And it's not so much game developers that are complaining, but game distributors. No one likes more competition.

Especially Microsoft. MS is the one who doesn't want competition. They don't want the Xbox to have to compete against PC gaming. They are the ones who tell developers to cancel a PC game and make it an Xbox exclusive, or timed exclusive.

MS wants all the good games on Xbox, and old iPhone games on the PC. Just look at the Xbox games in Windows 8. http://www.pcworld.com/article/261751/40_games_headed_to_the_windows_8_xbox_app.html No Halo or Gears of War there, just casual games, and outdated crap.

Just compare the new Flight to MS Flight Simulator. Microsoft has served PC gamers a turd sandwich without the bread. The bread costs extra.

 

[Dominato3r]

Nothing is stopping Gabe from listing Steam in the Windows store. If anything his service will get more exposure. This goes for any steam like provider.

 

[Nvidiaguy07]

Nothing is stopping Gabe from listing Steam in the Windows store. If anything his service will get more exposure. This goes for any steam like provider.

isnt there a requirement that your app cant have any violence to be in the windows store or something dumb like that?

Personally, im looking forward to steam on linux, even though i probably wont really use it. Itll be nice knowing theres another option for PC games should MS try to screw everything up. IF Valve ports ALL of their games to linux, i can see a considerable amount of people making the switch, and from there, maybe well see more linux versions of games (maybe 2 years until there are where mac is now).

 

[Red Storm]

I don't mind game devs getting upset with Microsoft at all. Hopefully this will push at least some of them to start releasing games for Linux and the like (looks like it already did with Valve).

 

[dguy6789]

Gabe's negative opinion on W8 is because of a conflict of interest with his business it creates(W8 store vs Steam) not because he has a legitimate issue with the OS.

 

[Nvidiaguy07]

Gabe's negative opinion on W8 is because of a conflict of interest with his business it creates(W8 store vs Steam) not because he has a legitimate issue with the OS.

but his conflict of interest affects more than just his product, if the windows 8 store gets much more popular than steam (like IE is still the most popular browser), then i think it hurts PC gaming as a whole. If thats the case, then microsoft can really gimp PC gaming, and force people to buy the new xbox or whatever is coming out.

 

[Red Storm]

Considering what games Microsoft has announced for their store, I don't think Steam has any reason to worry. Also if Microsoft's 30% is more than what Valve takes in Steam, devs have no reason to jump ship.

 

[wuliheron]

Considering what games Microsoft has announced for their store, I don't think Steam has any reason to worry. Also if Microsoft's 30% is more than what Valve takes in Steam, devs have no reason to jump ship.

If MS buys out EA that could change in a heartbeat. The eight hundred pound gorilla not only sleeps wherever it wants, but eats whatever it wants with the only exception being Apples.

 

[Red Storm]

If MS buys out EA that could change in a heartbeat. The eight hundred pound gorilla not only sleeps wherever it wants, but eats whatever it wants with the only exception being Apples.

EA pulled out of Steam a while back anyway, so it still wouldn't really have any effect on Steam.

 

[greenhawk]

Nothing is stopping Gabe from listing Steam in the Windows store. If anything his service will get more exposure. This goes for any steam like provider.

If like Apple though, the T&C say no in-app sales. Steam would fail that requirement big time.

 

[AlexAL]

If like Apple though, the T&C say no in-app sales. Steam would fail that requirement big time.

They'll just say the games are plugins for the Steam application. Heheheh.

 

[postmortemIA]

Gabe's negative opinion on W8 is because of a conflict of interest with his business it creates(W8 store vs Steam) not because he has a legitimate issue with the OS.

I don't think that Gabe is afraid of (shitty) competition. MS tried and failed in Games for Windows. He's afraid of crap being pasted all over windows (pun intended). Which alienates his target audience. Gabe needs people buying and using Windows.