Iron Lore goes down... (Titan Quest)

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
Pirating isn't stealing. Pirates aren't theives. Lets say you had a device that could scan a car and make a duplicate right on the spot. So you go to a dealership scan your favorite year of corvette and drive off in the recreated one. Clearly, You stole the car... Oh wait, no you didn't. Clearly, the dealership lost valuable merchandise as always happens in a theft... Nope, again didn't happen. Clearly, you would have bought a corvette if you couldn't didn't have that ability (ignore the fact that you couldn't afford a corvette otherwise)... Piracy is bad, but calling it theft only makes you look desperate to make a point. If you don't like the slang "pirate" term then call it what it really is: Copyright infringement.

no, it is theft of IP

theft is theft .. a pirate is a thief ... there is no imaginary car duplication device .. pirates are stealing from PEOPLE .. they are taking away from their means to make a living.

These selfish pirates cost ALL of us in higher prices and they are the SOLE reason for G-Damn DRM in a vain attempt for the Publishers to try and DEFEND against these *thieves* .. no one says i do not have a right to put a lock on my door against unauthorized entry; the Publishers are trying to PROTECT themselves against thieves.

if you don't like it, too bad ... a pirate is a thief .. and i don't care to hear ridiculous arguments "why" someone steals ...

i know : Because they can ... and have the crap morals of a thief

http://www.nolo.com/definition...548D129A491B3/alpha/L/

Inorder to steal (larceny/theft) something you need to deprive the owner of it's use (they need to lose said object). Piracy isn't theft nomatter how much more righteous it makes you feel calling it that.

and no matter how much you try to justify theft, it won't fly

Piracy evidently caused the downfall of Iron Lore ... i'd say some deserving people are *deprived* because of many selfish asses

I'm neither trying to justify theft or piracy. I would say the buggy release and vengeful style of DRM (Cause DRM never has false positives right?) lead more to their downfall than piracy did.

 

[apoppin]

I'm neither trying to justify theft or piracy. I would say the buggy release and vengeful style of DRM (Cause DRM never has false positives right?) lead more to their downfall than piracy did.

we are going in circles ... IF their games weren't SO pirated they would not have implemented the severe DRM they used
... "Someone" SOLD a copy scheme to them .. they must have hoped their 'scheme' would work; clearly they didn't anticipate the other issues for legitimate users

but the *fault* lies squarely on the backs of THIEVES ... if they didn't steal freely, then there would be no *need* for 'severe DRM'
- and there are SO many, their opinions further wreck a good game ... sorry, man i am not saying that you are a pirate or that you justify piracy .. i AM saying that Pirates are thieves and thieves have no legitimate excuse for their anti-social destructive behavior and real damage to working people.

 

[Canai]

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
Pirating isn't stealing. Pirates aren't theives. Lets say you had a device that could scan a car and make a duplicate right on the spot. So you go to a dealership scan your favorite year of corvette and drive off in the recreated one. Clearly, You stole the car... Oh wait, no you didn't. Clearly, the dealership lost valuable merchandise as always happens in a theft... Nope, again didn't happen. Clearly, you would have bought a corvette if you couldn't didn't have that ability (ignore the fact that you couldn't afford a corvette otherwise)... Piracy is bad, but calling it theft only makes you look desperate to make a point. If you don't like the slang "pirate" term then call it what it really is: Copyright infringement.

no, it is theft of IP

theft is theft .. a pirate is a thief ... there is no imaginary car duplication device .. pirates are stealing from PEOPLE .. they are taking away from their means to make a living.

These selfish pirates cost ALL of us in higher prices and they are the SOLE reason for G-Damn DRM in a vain attempt for the Publishers to try and DEFEND against these *thieves* .. no one says i do not have a right to put a lock on my door against unauthorized entry; the Publishers are trying to PROTECT themselves against thieves.

if you don't like it, too bad ... a pirate is a thief .. and i don't care to hear ridiculous arguments "why" someone steals ...

i know : Because they can ... and have the crap morals of a thief

http://www.nolo.com/definition...548D129A491B3/alpha/L/

Inorder to steal (larceny/theft) something you need to deprive the owner of it's use (they need to lose said object). Piracy isn't theft nomatter how much more righteous it makes you feel calling it that.

and no matter how much you try to justify theft, it won't fly

Piracy evidently caused the downfall of Iron Lore ... i'd say some deserving people are *deprived* because of many selfish asses

I'm neither trying to justify theft or piracy. I would say the buggy release and vengeful style of DRM (Cause DRM never has false positives right?) lead more to their downfall than piracy did.

Yes I'd like to see more companies switch to less invasive, more creative DRM, like Fade for OpFlash, instead of hidden root kits and virtual drive blacklists. IIRC, a recent game caused SATA DVD drives, the actual physical ones, to be blacklisted, making the game impossible to run (I think it was the Witcher but don't quote me on that). DRM is a definite turn off for purchasing and installing games. I almost returned Bioshock, since I bought it at launch and before the limited install DRM info came out. When 2k bowed to the pressure and upped the install limits with promises of further DRM reduction it really showed a great example of a company being too greedy with it's DRM scheme. I could be wrong, but AFAIK you still have a limited number of installs with Bioshock.

I think the bottom line is there will always be software piracy, companies will always be creating new DRM schemes to thwart the pirates, and the average users are the ones who suffer the most due to invasive or unstable DRM software packages. Perhaps Digital Distribution services like Steam will help reduce the invasive DRM while lowering piracy rates. That would be nice.

 

[StinkyPinky]

And while I'm at it, I don't want to spare the reviewers either. We had one reviewer - I won't name names, you can find it if you look hard enough - who missed the fact that you can teleport from wherever you are in TQ back to any of the major towns you've visited. So, this guy was hand-carting all of his stuff back to town every time his inventory was full. Through the entire game. Now, not only was this in the manual, and in the roll-over tooltips for the UI, but it was also in the tutorial, the very first time you walk past one of these giant pads that lights up like a beacon to the heavens. Nonetheless, he missed it, and he commented in his review how tedious this was and how much he missed being able to portal back to town. When we - and lots of our fans - pointed out that this was the reviewer's fault, not the game's, they amended the review. But, they didn't change the score. Do you honestly think that not having to run back to town all the time to sell your stuff wouldn't have made the game a better experience?

Well, I'll name names for him. It was Gamespot. That reviewer should have been fired for being a retard. That's like playing Unreal Tournament and not knowing how to use alternate fire.

 

[karioskasra]

It appears that many anti-piracy arguments base themselves on POTENTIAL -- more precisely, POTENTIAL lost sales. I hope you keep this in mind next time you commit many POTENTIAL murders by using birth control or using any consumables that are toxic in nature or are packaged in toxic materials. Or drive a car. Or do any multitude of things (yay butterfly effect). To live is to kill. Your hands were drenched in the blood of a thousand victims the day you were born.

Orrr we can stop overexaggerating because any point can be made depending on how far you want to reach.

p.s. some of these analogies are really off. They're almost comical in nature.

 

[Inspector Jihad]

i used to pirate games all the time but recently i've stopped, i will buy a great game or will buy an OK game at a discount. i think that more people think like this and will gladly pay for an awesome game or will be willing to spend less on a game that they aren't sure about. but no one wants to spend 50 bucks on a game that might be good or might suck ass.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
http://www.nolo.com/definition...548D129A491B3/alpha/L/

Inorder to steal (larceny/theft) something you need to deprive the owner of it's use (they need to lose said object). Piracy isn't theft nomatter how much more righteous it makes you feel calling it that.

What a stupid argument. Here, let me fix it for you:

No matter HOW you cut it, whether you "pirate" a title for an hour, or for life... you are depriving the developer of a potential sale. No ifs, ands or buts. If you like the game, and you buy it, good for you. But whether you like it or not, if you spend 5 minutes with a title and determine you don't want it, you have just deprived the developer of a rightful sale. You have just stolen money out of their pockets by not first purchasing the title to try it out.

Does that seem stupid? Yes. But it's the truth. You have committed theft in the most basic sense. You say, "No I didn't - 'cause I deleted it." You are paying for an entertainment service wrapped in product form. You are paying for the right to use a piece of software when you buy it (the license). As much as you want to argue otherwise, you are stealing if you are not paying for a title - no matter how good or bad it is, no matter what DRM scheme is in it, no matter what.

I already laid out the legitimate options to "test out" titles earlier in this thread. If you're too damn lazy or too morally "centered", get the fuck over yourself. If you're going to purchase a title after the fact, why not pony up up front? If you think there's a chance you might not like a title, then just don't get it period. It really is that easy people.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: karioskasra
It appears that many anti-piracy arguments base themselves on POTENTIAL -- more precisely, POTENTIAL lost sales. I hope you keep this in mind next time you commit many POTENTIAL murders by using birth control or using any consumables that are toxic in nature or are packaged in toxic materials. Or drive a car. Or do any multitude of things (yay butterfly effect). To live is to kill. Your hands were drenched in the blood of a thousand victims the day you were born.

Orrr we can stop overexaggerating because any point can be made depending on how far you want to reach.

p.s. some of these analogies are really off. They're almost comical in nature.

we are not talking about the *potential* loss of a studio - it *actually* happened .. there are many people out of a job right now because of theft.

you can excuse murder by you rather twisted line of reasoning ... but no one else will buy it

 

[AMDZen]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: karioskasra
It appears that many anti-piracy arguments base themselves on POTENTIAL -- more precisely, POTENTIAL lost sales. I hope you keep this in mind next time you commit many POTENTIAL murders by using birth control or using any consumables that are toxic in nature or are packaged in toxic materials. Or drive a car. Or do any multitude of things (yay butterfly effect). To live is to kill. Your hands were drenched in the blood of a thousand victims the day you were born.

Orrr we can stop overexaggerating because any point can be made depending on how far you want to reach.

p.s. some of these analogies are really off. They're almost comical in nature.

we are not talking about the *potential* loss of a studio - it *actually* happened .. there are many people out of a job right now because of theft.

you can excuse murder by you rather twisted line of reasoning ... but no one else will buy it

This is where your arguement is completely flawed. You are completely taking this one person's word for it that this studio went out of business because of Piracy alone. I'm not buying it, apparently you just go and take everything you read on the internet and equate it with truth. Did Piracy contribute to the fall of this studio? Perhaps, but I would bet money that there were many more factors involved, most likely a business man/investor who pulled out for profit. And whatever those factors are, they contributed more strongly to this studios demise. There are plenty of other game developers that are thriving in this so called "piracy age".

Until you or this jackass of a developer (the interviewee) can shed some real numbers on it (and he can't) I don't believe it. I bought the game and I've already posted about its inherrant crashing issues. Its not Piracy's fault that the game was released buggy, it was the developers/programmers fault. And its obvious to me that they were capable of fixing it because they did, when games are released too early its obvious. Some games come out and within a couple days there is already a patch - why couldn't these things be fixed 2 days prior? I don't know, with TQ it only took a couple weeks for all of my issues to be fixed. Maybe the reviewers did contribute to the games poor sales, but that isn't piracy's fault no matter what this guy would have you believe.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: AMDZen

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: karioskasra
It appears that many anti-piracy arguments base themselves on POTENTIAL -- more precisely, POTENTIAL lost sales. I hope you keep this in mind next time you commit many POTENTIAL murders by using birth control or using any consumables that are toxic in nature or are packaged in toxic materials. Or drive a car. Or do any multitude of things (yay butterfly effect). To live is to kill. Your hands were drenched in the blood of a thousand victims the day you were born.

Orrr we can stop overexaggerating because any point can be made depending on how far you want to reach.

p.s. some of these analogies are really off. They're almost comical in nature.

we are not talking about the *potential* loss of a studio - it *actually* happened .. there are many people out of a job right now because of theft.

you can excuse murder by you rather twisted line of reasoning ... but no one else will buy it

This is where your arguement is completely flawed. You are completely taking this one person's word for it that this studio went out of business because of Piracy alone. I'm not buying it, apparently you just go and take everything you read on the internet and equate it with truth. Did Piracy contribute to the fall of this studio? Perhaps, but I would bet money that there were many more factors involved, most likely a business man/investor who pulled out for profit. And whatever those factors are, they contributed more strongly to this studios demise. There are plenty of other game developers that are thriving in this so called "piracy age".

Until you or this jackass of a developer (the interviewee) can shed some real numbers on it (and he can't) I don't believe it. I bought the game and I've already posted about its inherrant crashing issues. Its not Piracy's fault that the game was released buggy, it was the developers/programmers fault. And its obvious to me that they were capable of fixing it because they did, when games are released too early its obvious. Some games come out and within a couple days there is already a patch - why couldn't these things be fixed 2 days prior? I don't know, with TQ it only took a couple weeks for all of my issues to be fixed. Maybe the reviewers did contribute to the games poor sales, but that isn't piracy's fault no matter what this guy would have you believe.

You are the one that keeps excusing theft by qualifying it with "piracy alone" didn't kill it statements
i don't give a crap if thieves were the SOLE reason the studio went out of business ... perhaps the studio is exaggerating the piracy by a factor of TWO ... OK ... the they lost FORTY PERCENT of their SALES and well over 40% of their profit
:Q

Would you mind if a thief took half of you paycheck - every week? ... how long could you keep working while asses stole from you and then stupidly told you it was their "right" to do so?
:thumbsdown:

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
http://www.nolo.com/definition...548D129A491B3/alpha/L/

Inorder to steal (larceny/theft) something you need to deprive the owner of it's use (they need to lose said object). Piracy isn't theft nomatter how much more righteous it makes you feel calling it that.

What a stupid argument. Here, let me fix it for you:

No matter HOW you cut it, whether you "pirate" a title for an hour, or for life... you are depriving the developer of a potential sale. No ifs, ands or buts. If you like the game, and you buy it, good for you. But whether you like it or not, if you spend 5 minutes with a title and determine you don't want it, you have just deprived the developer of a rightful sale. You have just stolen money out of their pockets by not first purchasing the title to try it out.

Does that seem stupid? Yes. But it's the truth. You have committed theft in the most basic sense. You say, "No I didn't - 'cause I deleted it." You are paying for an entertainment service wrapped in product form. You are paying for the right to use a piece of software when you buy it (the license). As much as you want to argue otherwise, you are stealing if you are not paying for a title - no matter how good or bad it is, no matter what DRM scheme is in it, no matter what.

I already laid out the legitimate options to "test out" titles earlier in this thread. If you're too damn lazy or too morally "centered", get the fuck over yourself. If you're going to purchase a title after the fact, why not pony up up front? If you think there's a chance you might not like a title, then just don't get it period. It really is that easy people.

Bullshit. Complete, utter bullshit.

By buying Titan Quest, how many video game makers did you deprive of potential sales? Unless you purchase every single game released, you are depriving them of sales, and therefore a thief. So do you still want to go with that definition of theft?

I'm not condoning piracy, but you fools who don't understand how theft and copyright violation are different need to stop spouting your uninformed crap.

 

[AMDZen]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: AMDZen

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: karioskasra
It appears that many anti-piracy arguments base themselves on POTENTIAL -- more precisely, POTENTIAL lost sales. I hope you keep this in mind next time you commit many POTENTIAL murders by using birth control or using any consumables that are toxic in nature or are packaged in toxic materials. Or drive a car. Or do any multitude of things (yay butterfly effect). To live is to kill. Your hands were drenched in the blood of a thousand victims the day you were born.

Orrr we can stop overexaggerating because any point can be made depending on how far you want to reach.

p.s. some of these analogies are really off. They're almost comical in nature.

we are not talking about the *potential* loss of a studio - it *actually* happened .. there are many people out of a job right now because of theft.

you can excuse murder by you rather twisted line of reasoning ... but no one else will buy it

This is where your arguement is completely flawed. You are completely taking this one person's word for it that this studio went out of business because of Piracy alone. I'm not buying it, apparently you just go and take everything you read on the internet and equate it with truth. Did Piracy contribute to the fall of this studio? Perhaps, but I would bet money that there were many more factors involved, most likely a business man/investor who pulled out for profit. And whatever those factors are, they contributed more strongly to this studios demise. There are plenty of other game developers that are thriving in this so called "piracy age".

Until you or this jackass of a developer (the interviewee) can shed some real numbers on it (and he can't) I don't believe it. I bought the game and I've already posted about its inherrant crashing issues. Its not Piracy's fault that the game was released buggy, it was the developers/programmers fault. And its obvious to me that they were capable of fixing it because they did, when games are released too early its obvious. Some games come out and within a couple days there is already a patch - why couldn't these things be fixed 2 days prior? I don't know, with TQ it only took a couple weeks for all of my issues to be fixed. Maybe the reviewers did contribute to the games poor sales, but that isn't piracy's fault no matter what this guy would have you believe.

You are the one that keeps excusing theft by qualifying it with "piracy alone" didn't kill it statements
i don't give a crap if thieves were the SOLE reason the studio went out of business ... perhaps the studio is exaggerating the piracy by a factor of TWO ... OK ... the they lost FORTY PERCENT of their SALES and well over 40% of their profit
:Q

Would you mind if a thief took half of you paycheck - every week? ... how long could you keep working while asses stole from you and then stupidly told you it was their "right" to do so?
:thumbsdown:

Actually no, I'm not the one who is arguing what I bolded above. I've only commented once in this thread before my initial reply to you and that wasn't a reply to anyone.

I do agree that piracy isn't the same thing as theft, but thats completely irrelevant to my arguement. My argument is that the game WAS flawed when it came out, it needed to be patched - and those flaws has NOTHING to do with the crack that the pirates released when this game came out. I think this guy is completely full of SHIT by saying that the crack was the only thing causing problems because I was using my DISC that I BOUGHT and still getting tons of crashing. I also know others who bought it and had crashing. His statement is also negated because after the game was patched, myself and others started using a No-CD/DVD crack and the game didn't crash - which exemplifies the proof that the game needed to be patched to fix the problems and they weren't caused by the crack.

So having prooved, at least from my POV and many, MANY others that the game was flawed and it wasn't because of the crack that the game was buggy - why should I then believe anything else this guy has to say. The whole interview is pretty much a crock of shit if you ask me.

 

[AMDZen]

Titan Quest - Frustrations of a PC Developer
One guy went so far as to say he'd bought the retail game and it was having the exact same crashes, so it must be the game itself. This was one of the most vocal detractors, and we got into it a little bit. He swore up and down that he'd done everything above-board, installed it on a clean machine, updated everything, still getting the same crashes. It was our fault, we were stupid, our programmers didn't know how to make games - some other guy asked "do they code with their feet?". About a week later, he realized that he'd forgotten to re-install his BIOS update after he wiped the machine. He fixed that, all his crashes went away. At least he was man enough to admit it.

I'll just go ahead and point out one of the most blatent piece's of misinformation in this PC Developer's argument. I think I might know what he is talking about because there were quite a few (not just one) people who had legitimate copys in the TQ forums and were talking about crashing. I know for a fact because I was one of them. I doubt it was the same person I'm thinking of because I was actually one of the people in there saying it wasn't just the crack since I had a LEGAL copy of the game as well. I also had 2 roommates at the time who installed my legal copy on their machines (I know what people are going to say but I did it for troubleshooting) who also had issues. Don't worry, they uninstalled because one of them doesn't like games like this and the other was too busy with other games, I think he started his addiction to WoW at the time.

Still there were people that did a wipe and reload of windows (one of my roomates was one of them, he didn't do a wipe and reload for this game he had just built a new rig so he was on a fresh install) to try and get the game to run. This "developer" says and I quote (again since its quoted above)

About a week later, he realized that he'd forgotten to re-install his BIOS update after he wiped the machine. He fixed that, all his crashes went away. At least he was man enough to admit it.

This is BS. COMPLETE BS. How many people around here know computers, I find it hard to believe that a "developer" could be this naive. For those that don't see the flaw in this statement let me point it out. When you do a wipe and reload of "Windows", nothing ever touches the BIOS - ever. No matter what you do the only way to "wipe" the BIOS is to replace it with another one.

So what is this guy saying exactly? Maybe we'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he mis"typed" and meant that some guy loaded an OLDER BIOS and then went back to a newer one which fixed the issue. I sincerely doubt that is what happened.

I'd like to see the thread personally because frankly this whole thing just stinks. Chances are the guy he is referencing got the game fixed after the second patch or so (I think it was the second patch it might of been the first for me, its been a while and I haven't played the game since I first beat it) and like so many others, that is what eventually fixed it.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: AMDZen

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: AMDZen

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: karioskasra
It appears that many anti-piracy arguments base themselves on POTENTIAL -- more precisely, POTENTIAL lost sales. I hope you keep this in mind next time you commit many POTENTIAL murders by using birth control or using any consumables that are toxic in nature or are packaged in toxic materials. Or drive a car. Or do any multitude of things (yay butterfly effect). To live is to kill. Your hands were drenched in the blood of a thousand victims the day you were born.

Orrr we can stop overexaggerating because any point can be made depending on how far you want to reach.

p.s. some of these analogies are really off. They're almost comical in nature.

we are not talking about the *potential* loss of a studio - it *actually* happened .. there are many people out of a job right now because of theft.

you can excuse murder by you rather twisted line of reasoning ... but no one else will buy it

This is where your arguement is completely flawed. You are completely taking this one person's word for it that this studio went out of business because of Piracy alone. I'm not buying it, apparently you just go and take everything you read on the internet and equate it with truth. Did Piracy contribute to the fall of this studio? Perhaps, but I would bet money that there were many more factors involved, most likely a business man/investor who pulled out for profit. And whatever those factors are, they contributed more strongly to this studios demise. There are plenty of other game developers that are thriving in this so called "piracy age".

Until you or this jackass of a developer (the interviewee) can shed some real numbers on it (and he can't) I don't believe it. I bought the game and I've already posted about its inherrant crashing issues. Its not Piracy's fault that the game was released buggy, it was the developers/programmers fault. And its obvious to me that they were capable of fixing it because they did, when games are released too early its obvious. Some games come out and within a couple days there is already a patch - why couldn't these things be fixed 2 days prior? I don't know, with TQ it only took a couple weeks for all of my issues to be fixed. Maybe the reviewers did contribute to the games poor sales, but that isn't piracy's fault no matter what this guy would have you believe.

You are the one that keeps excusing theft by qualifying it with "piracy alone" didn't kill it statements
i don't give a crap if thieves were the SOLE reason the studio went out of business ... perhaps the studio is exaggerating the piracy by a factor of TWO ... OK ... the they lost FORTY PERCENT of their SALES and well over 40% of their profit
:Q

Would you mind if a thief took half of you paycheck - every week? ... how long could you keep working while asses stole from you and then stupidly told you it was their "right" to do so?
:thumbsdown:

Actually no, I'm not the one who is arguing what I bolded above. I've only commented once in this thread before my initial reply to you and that wasn't a reply to anyone.

I do agree that piracy isn't the same thing as theft, but thats completely irrelevant to my arguement. My argument is that the game WAS flawed when it came out, it needed to be patched - and those flaws has NOTHING to do with the crack that the pirates released when this game came out. I think this guy is completely full of SHIT by saying that the crack was the only thing causing problems because I was using my DISC that I BOUGHT and still getting tons of crashing. I also know others who bought it and had crashing. His statement is also negated because after the game was patched, myself and others started using a No-CD/DVD crack and the game didn't crash - which exemplifies the proof that the game needed to be patched to fix the problems and they weren't caused by the crack.

So having prooved, at least from my POV and many, MANY others that the game was flawed and it wasn't because of the crack that the game was buggy - why should I then believe anything else this guy has to say. The whole interview is pretty much a crock of shit if you ask me.

well, then we will agree to disagree .. i believe that piracy impact PC gaming a lot more than you do. That a possible 'marginal' studio will go under simply because of it.

Of course there are obviously *other factors* .. but don't toss the baby out with the bathwater because you object to part of the argument

 

[AMDZen]

Originally posted by: apoppin

well, then we will agree to disagree .. i believe that piracy impact PC gaming a lot more than you do. That a possible 'marginal' studio will go under simply because of it.

Of course there are obviously *other factors* .. but don't toss the baby out with the bathwater because you object to part of the argument

I'm disagreeing with the only parts of his argument that I can disagree with. He has no facts, nothing at all as an argument. And neither do you, frankly neither do I, on the piracy part anyway. I don't have any numbers to proove that piracy contributed this much or that much to TQ's loss on sales, there are no way to get these numbers which is why it strikes me as odd that you would just assume he is correct. I guess you simply didn't have the game on day one, or didn't have any issues so you can't take issue with his (as I see it) a scapegoat for the flaws that the game DID HAVE, contrary to his comments that they were only existant because of the crack. Total BS.

On this point and others, I feel like I have more facts since I can proove a few things in his argument are flawed based on my personal experience - as well as complete misinformation like I pointed to in my last post. I can't believe nobody else brought up the BIOS thing (although I didn't read the whole thread so perhaps someone else did)

The only part of his argument that even makes sense, in part to piracy any way, was the argument about CoD4 doing so much better on the Consoles - well this has always been the case. A lot more gamers have xbox360s and PS3's right now then people with higher end gaming PC's, PC gaming has always been minority to console gaming and is only more of a minority right now with Xbox live doing so well. I have lots of friends that have converted to an xbox gamer from once being a PC gamer, the argument used most often is price - which is a valid argument because an xbox costs pretty much the same as a good video card alone. Or slightly more.

Regardless. Piracy will never die, it just won't. I honestly believe this is fact, there is really no way to get rid of it. So what does this mean? That PC gaming may be ended by piracy? I don't think so and I know I'm not alone. However, assuming it did, why are people so quick to assume that piracy wouldn't exist on consoles? I'm not saying that you are making this argument, but many people do. Console piracy is rampant as well. There are plenty of people out there, on xbox in particular, that I know for a fact are playing xbox360 games that they burned. They are pretty much just as easy to find if you look on the net as PC games. And it doesn't stop with the 360, look at the "Hot Deals" thread right here on our forums - there is a post about the R4 which main purpose is pretty much to play games on your DS that you downloaded. I'm not saying this is the only reason people have one, but the DS piracy scene is HUGE - and the DS is doing fine.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
http://www.nolo.com/definition...548D129A491B3/alpha/L/

Inorder to steal (larceny/theft) something you need to deprive the owner of it's use (they need to lose said object). Piracy isn't theft nomatter how much more righteous it makes you feel calling it that.

What a stupid argument. Here, let me fix it for you:

No matter HOW you cut it, whether you "pirate" a title for an hour, or for life... you are depriving the developer of a potential sale. No ifs, ands or buts. If you like the game, and you buy it, good for you. But whether you like it or not, if you spend 5 minutes with a title and determine you don't want it, you have just deprived the developer of a rightful sale. You have just stolen money out of their pockets by not first purchasing the title to try it out.

Does that seem stupid? Yes. But it's the truth. You have committed theft in the most basic sense. You say, "No I didn't - 'cause I deleted it." You are paying for an entertainment service wrapped in product form. You are paying for the right to use a piece of software when you buy it (the license). As much as you want to argue otherwise, you are stealing if you are not paying for a title - no matter how good or bad it is, no matter what DRM scheme is in it, no matter what.

I already laid out the legitimate options to "test out" titles earlier in this thread. If you're too damn lazy or too morally "centered", get the fuck over yourself. If you're going to purchase a title after the fact, why not pony up up front? If you think there's a chance you might not like a title, then just don't get it period. It really is that easy people.

Bullshit. Complete, utter bullshit.

By buying Titan Quest, how many video game makers did you deprive of potential sales? Unless you purchase every single game released, you are depriving them of sales, and therefore a thief. So do you still want to go with that definition of theft?

I'm not condoning piracy, but you fools who don't understand how theft and copyright violation are different need to stop spouting your uninformed crap.

How is that bullshit? You're making a distinction with "intent" to purchase versus "no intent at all". If you're not going to buy it in the first place, then you're not defrauding anyone. If you "pirate" a title even with intent of buying it "if it's good enough", but turns out you don't do so, you've just defrauded the company of a sale, plain and simple. You should have purchased the title (or downloaded a demo IF available), tried the title out, determined it isn't for you, and then either taken your loss or re-sell the title.

Now to differentiate your uninformed crap:

Copyright Infringement: Text

Theft: Text

And by the definition of Theft, Stealing: Text

I'd like to point out in particular:

1 a: to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully <stole a car> b: to take away by force or unjust means <they've stolen our liberty> c: to take surreptitiously or without permission <steal a kiss> d: to appropriate to oneself or beyond one's proper share : make oneself the focus of <steal the show>

Copyright Infringement and Theft go hand-in-hand my friend.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: AMDZen

Originally posted by: apoppin

well, then we will agree to disagree .. i believe that piracy impact PC gaming a lot more than you do. That a possible 'marginal' studio will go under simply because of it.

Of course there are obviously *other factors* .. but don't toss the baby out with the bathwater because you object to part of the argument

I'm disagreeing with the only parts of his argument that I can disagree with. He has no facts, nothing at all as an argument. And neither do you, frankly neither do I, on the piracy part anyway. I don't have any numbers to proove that piracy contributed this much or that much to TQ's loss on sales, there are no way to get these numbers which is why it strikes me as odd that you would just assume he is correct. I guess you simply didn't have the game on day one, or didn't have any issues so you can't take issue with his (as I see it) a scapegoat for the flaws that the game DID HAVE, contrary to his comments that they were only existant because of the crack. Total BS.

On this point and others, I feel like I have more facts since I can proove a few things in his argument are flawed based on my personal experience - as well as complete misinformation like I pointed to in my last post. I can't believe nobody else brought up the BIOS thing (although I didn't read the whole thread so perhaps someone else did)

The only part of his argument that even makes sense, in part to piracy any way, was the argument about CoD4 doing so much better on the Consoles - well this has always been the case. A lot more gamers have xbox360s and PS3's right now then people with higher end gaming PC's, PC gaming has always been minority to console gaming and is only more of a minority right now with Xbox live doing so well. I have lots of friends that have converted to an xbox gamer from once being a PC gamer, the argument used most often is price - which is a valid argument because an xbox costs pretty much the same as a good video card alone. Or slightly more.

Regardless. Piracy will never die, it just won't. I honestly believe this is fact, there is really no way to get rid of it. So what does this mean? That PC gaming may be ended by piracy? I don't think so and I know I'm not alone. However, assuming it did, why are people so quick to assume that piracy wouldn't exist on consoles? I'm not saying that you are making this argument, but many people do. Console piracy is rampant as well. There are plenty of people out there, on xbox in particular, that I know for a fact are playing xbox360 games that they burned. They are pretty much just as easy to find if you look on the net as PC games. And it doesn't stop with the 360, look at the "Hot Deals" thread right here on our forums - there is a post about the R4 which main purpose is pretty much to play games on your DS that you downloaded. I'm not saying this is the only reason people have one, but the DS piracy scene is HUGE - and the DS is doing fine.

so you are saying there is no hope and that we should not discuss it?

the way they get their figures is to compare PC sales with console sales of the same game .. although console games ARE pirated, it is apparently much less than PC games

you are asking me to toss all logic aside because ONE dev might ALSO be crying "spoiled milk" that that in fact OTHER issues besides piracy, i am not denying

i am certainly not basing ALL of my argument on one Dev's comments about the 'why' his studio failed .. would you like me to find more for you?

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

Originally posted by: AMDZen

Titan Quest - Frustrations of a PC Developer
One guy went so far as to say he'd bought the retail game and it was having the exact same crashes, so it must be the game itself. This was one of the most vocal detractors, and we got into it a little bit. He swore up and down that he'd done everything above-board, installed it on a clean machine, updated everything, still getting the same crashes. It was our fault, we were stupid, our programmers didn't know how to make games - some other guy asked "do they code with their feet?". About a week later, he realized that he'd forgotten to re-install his BIOS update after he wiped the machine. He fixed that, all his crashes went away. At least he was man enough to admit it.

I'll just go ahead and point out one of the most blatent piece's of misinformation in this PC Developer's argument. I think I might know what he is talking about because there were quite a few (not just one) people who had legitimate copys in the TQ forums and were talking about crashing. I know for a fact because I was one of them. I doubt it was the same person I'm thinking of because I was actually one of the people in there saying it wasn't just the crack since I had a LEGAL copy of the game as well. I also had 2 roommates at the time who installed my legal copy on their machines (I know what people are going to say but I did it for troubleshooting) who also had issues. Don't worry, they uninstalled because one of them doesn't like games like this and the other was too busy with other games, I think he started his addiction to WoW at the time.

Still there were people that did a wipe and reload of windows (one of my roomates was one of them, he didn't do a wipe and reload for this game he had just built a new rig so he was on a fresh install) to try and get the game to run. This "developer" says and I quote (again since its quoted above)

About a week later, he realized that he'd forgotten to re-install his BIOS update after he wiped the machine. He fixed that, all his crashes went away. At least he was man enough to admit it.

This is BS. COMPLETE BS. How many people around here know computers, I find it hard to believe that a "developer" could be this naive. For those that don't see the flaw in this statement let me point it out. When you do a wipe and reload of "Windows", nothing ever touches the BIOS - ever. No matter what you do the only way to "wipe" the BIOS is to replace it with another one.

So what is this guy saying exactly? Maybe we'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he mis"typed" and meant that some guy loaded an OLDER BIOS and then went back to a newer one which fixed the issue. I sincerely doubt that is what happened.

I'd like to see the thread personally because frankly this whole thing just stinks. Chances are the guy he is referencing got the game fixed after the second patch or so (I think it was the second patch it might of been the first for me, its been a while and I haven't played the game since I first beat it) and like so many others, that is what eventually fixed it.

Yeah, the whole wiped bios thing was kind of weird, it's like something they'd say in a movie or TV show to make a computer problem seem cooler than it is...ok, maybe not in a good TV show or movie, but still.

Still the overall post was good and I agree with a lot of his points. As long as pirates don't think piracy hurts PC gaming, PC gaming is never going to thrive. And as long as hardware makers keep putting crapass shared memory graphics controllers in their crippled systems, that's going to game perception and sales as well.

 

[hooflung]

There is some major internet superhero bullshit in this thread especially trying to discount the 'bios' issue. The Dev specifically talked about cheap hardware for sound and video. Have people forgotten that a lot of onboard video is controlled by the BIOS? I mean, he didn't go into detail and tell you what hardware the guy he was talking about had. What if AGP aperture size was wrong or some integrated chipset ram was at an incompatible size the user adjusted it to for xyz reason. Or that he might have been using one of those cheap POS cards with Turbo Cache Memory... etc etc.

If you want to be an internet wise guy at least try to cover your bases before looking like a douche bag.

 

[AMDZen]

Originally posted by: apoppin
so you are saying there is no hope and that we should not discuss it?

No I am not saying that, I see your point on this but for me, I think you either have to face facts on this thing as they are and do your best - spread the word to people that you may know who pirate games and try to get them to change their ways. That is really the best you can do, otherwise "natural selection" will take its course. Personally, I don't see that piracy is going to wipe out PC gaming, many people do. I do, however, believe that in the unlikely scenerio that PC gaming is wiped out, piracy will become much more rampant on consoles.

The logic for this is simple, PC gamers will move to consoles and there will be that many more minds working on solutions to DRM or other such jazz that the publishers are using for their games, and/or the MS's and Sony's of the console world are using on their console systems. So if there is an argument that piracy is less of an issue on consoles, which I don't necessarily agree with but I'll get to in just a second, the piracy would move to consoles and thus become more of an issue there.

Back to why I don't think piracy is that much LESS of an issue on consoles. There are quite a few strong points on such, like the fact that a lot of console users simply aren't savvy enough, being that pirating games on consoles is usually more difficult. However, I personally see just as much if not more piracy on consoles among people i know or observations I've made. I remember the video store by my house used to actually have a poster telling you that they mod'd consoles. They made it perfectly clear that it was to play imported games, which the said as well - however, the people who worked there would also tell you how to copy games and such and say its also to "backup" your games.

Then there is the Nintendo DS which I've already discussed, but which has no copy protection hardly at all. All you need to do is buy the R4 or M3 or whatever, then simply google NDS ROMs and you're done. I personally haven't seen any websites that have PC games so readily available, with ROMS its all over the WWW - with PC games you at least have to have some knowledge of P2P, NNTP, IRC, BT or some other actual P2P model. You usually can't just google "Bioshock" and get a website with an immediate download like with NDS. And yet again, the NDS is thriving, Absolutely thriving.

the way they get their figures is to compare PC sales with console sales of the same game .. although console games ARE pirated, it is apparently much less than PC games

Apparently you have been living in a cave or simply missed all the points I've already made. Its not a fair comparisson to compare PC sales with console sales on games like CoD4 or Bioshock like this guy did. First of all, counting all PC gamers and all Xbox/PS3/Wii gamers all together, the console owners will be WAY AHEAD. PC gamers are the minority, every one knows this. Its always been this way, since the very first nintendo there has always been more console gamers then PC gamers.

Secondly, its made even more absurd because CoD4 and Bioshock required a pretty damn good video card to be played optimally. The number of PC gamers who have a card to play the game optimally dwindles even more. I'd go so far as to say that the # of console gamers is probably 5-10 times higher then PC gamers that own a computer to play these games. Which completely negates the sales figures comparisson because, if there are 5 times as many people who own Wii/PS3/360 for CoD4 as there are of PC gamers, then obviously the sales figures for the PC game will be 5 times less. And isn't Bioshock on the Wii as well? I don't know but assuming it is (i was pretty sure CoD4 is) then that would explain most of that away as well.

If you take a look at the sales figures for the end of 2007 alone

During the all important year-end sales between November 25th and December 30th, Nintendo notched up 774, 123 Wii units while Sony shifted 232,421 PS3's, marking a swift change around after Sony enjoyed a brief time at the top during November.

There were a million Wii's and PS3's sold in a month JUST IN JAPAN. Personally I wish there was some numbers out there on how many PC gamers with decent vid cards there are but there isn't. However I doubt you'd find anyone who would argue that there aren't MANY more console gamers out there and its not unrealistic at all to say there are 5 times more console gamers.

I think I read somewhere that the 8800GT has killed all sales figures for video cards, and from release date to the end of 2007 it only sold 200,000 or so units World Wide. I wish I could find those numbers, I'll update the thread if I do since I'm having trouble finding it. But really, that alone speaks volumes. 200,000 for the 8800GT is the most even for a video card and yet its 5 times less then consoles in only one country. Hmmm, I think I've made my point.

you are asking me to toss all logic aside because ONE dev might ALSO be crying "spoiled milk" that that in fact OTHER issues besides piracy, i am not denying

i am certainly not basing ALL of my argument on one Dev's comments about the 'why' his studio failed .. would you like me to find more for you?

By all means, you show me some data that helps your point. And don't you go using console sales of games like CoD4 and Bioshock, because no way that kind of thinking holds up. I'm nearly positive that you won't be able to find much, if anything credible to help your point

 

[AMDZen]

Originally posted by: hooflung
There is some major internet superhero bullshit in this thread especially trying to discount the 'bios' issue. The Dev specifically talked about cheap hardware for sound and video. Have people forgotten that a lot of onboard video is controlled by the BIOS? I mean, he didn't go into detail and tell you what hardware the guy he was talking about had. What if AGP aperture size was wrong or some integrated chipset ram was at an incompatible size the user adjusted it to for xyz reason. Or that he might have been using one of those cheap POS cards with Turbo Cache Memory... etc etc.

If you want to be an internet wise guy at least try to cover your bases before looking like a douche bag.

I suppose this could be what he meant, he still phrased it poorly ever if it is. He also made the BIOS comment well before he delved into discussing the onboard stuff. He made the comment when talking about the game crashing because of the crack, and that there was one person (as if there was only one) who owned the game but still had issues.

If you had read my other reply's and comments, you would also realize that I was making this point in relation to that. Myself and many others with legit games were having crashing issues, that was my underlining point in my first posts I made, he makes it seem like it was just the crack when many people know this is flat out misinformation. So what are people supposed to think after he starts his argument off with misinformation? I think its understandable to assume that some of what follows is also minformation.

Sorry if I come across as a "hero" because I think this guy is full of it and I can't stand how he blames everyone and everything like he's doing. But I have my reasons for feeling this way. I remember getting on the forums when this game came out, and ask for help with crashing. A moderator came to my thread and denounce'd me immediately as a pirate and said that I stole the game.

"Well you wouldn't be having crashing issues if you bought the game". = exact phrase told to me by a moderator

Are you freaking kidding me?

I'm still sad to see them go - but could it be partially your fault guys?

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: AMDZen

I think I read somewhere that the 8800GT has killed all sales figures for video cards, and from release date to the end of 2007 it only sold 200,000 or so units World Wide. I wish I could find those numbers, I'll update the thread if I do since I'm having trouble finding it. But really, that alone speaks volumes. 200,000 for the 8800GT is the most even for a video card and yet its 5 times less then consoles in only one country. Hmmm, I think I've made my point.

what???

the 8800gt isn't the only card out there. there's tons of other cards in the 8800 line that are more than capable of playing games. even the last gen stuff is probabvly still capable of playing most games. not to add the fact that you haven't even mentioned the ATI cards yet...

your point is so full of holes.

 

[AMDZen]

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: AMDZen

I think I read somewhere that the 8800GT has killed all sales figures for video cards, and from release date to the end of 2007 it only sold 200,000 or so units World Wide. I wish I could find those numbers, I'll update the thread if I do since I'm having trouble finding it. But really, that alone speaks volumes. 200,000 for the 8800GT is the most even for a video card and yet its 5 times less then consoles in only one country. Hmmm, I think I've made my point.

what???

the 8800gt isn't the only card out there. there's tons of other cards in the 8800 line that are more than capable of playing games. even the last gen stuff is probabvly still capable of playing most games. not to add the fact that you haven't even mentioned the ATI cards yet...

your point is so full of holes.

I realize that it is missing a lot of info, but really its hard to make this argument because its hard to find "PC gamer" type numbers. I was using this as a brief example assuming my point would be obvious. Why don't you further shread my argument by stating the other obvious point "Japanese buyers aren't going to buy CoD4 as much as American/European". How exactly do you suggest I do it? Compile all video card sales say in a year and compare that to console sales?I don't think thats plausible even if you were able to find such a figure, simply because people buy video cards for other reasons then to game - people don't buy consoles for any other reason (except maybe the ps3 as a cheap blue ray player but those people probably also game).

And the 8800GT is at least a start simply because anyone who bought one in its first few months of sales are going to be gamers, I'd say over 90% of 8800GT sales went to gamers.

Regardless, I'd like to see you come up with some sort of plausible formula on this subject.

I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting any way, are you saying there are as many PC gamers as console gamers?

And I just realized that CoD4 was also on the DS - so do the sales figures stating 5 to 1 on console sales over PC sales count the DS game as well as the Wii/PS3/360 sales? Is there anyone who can seriously argue that the number of DS/Wii/PS3/360 owners isn't significantly, and very realistically at least 5 times that of PC gamers? I'd say you're off your rocker if you did

 

[bsobel]

imo, MS needs to work with Devs on this .. they also need to design their OS so that it cvan go into "gaming mode" without rebooting ... where the OS is "devoted" to gaming processes and nearly everything else is shut down.

I believe you'll see this moving forward via virtualization, you'll have a container which runs your games which guarenteed cpu cycles/network usage etc

 

[boatillo]

I bought the TQ+IT pack, played it for quite a number of hours, enjoyed myself, then hoped that someday a sequel would show up! Guess not huh.

All in all, it was a classic D2-clone that fixed many of the annoyances people had with D2 and focused on improving the game play in a lot of areas. I never had a single crash, but the engine did not do a great job - on the machine in sig (which I have running meticulous and clean) the game would often stutter around things like flames and entering caves/buildings. My hardware should have been able to run a game this age with AA and AF without seeing a stutter. It did not detract much and I still had fun!

Thanks Iron Lore!